The system will not allow it.....

[GROUNDHOG]

Booked a flight with BA with connection over YVR to an AC jazz flight. Advised yesterday the connection had been rescheduled 45 minutes later so we now have an over 4 hour wait at YVR - but there is an earlier flight which I know has space on it. Can I swop please?

No the system is showing no W class seats on this flight ( the aircraft is a dash 8 all economy) but ring Air Canada they might help. I rang and they said they would if Ba contacted them, although later said they couldn't as there were no seats of that class available in the system..

The flight I am on is currently fully booked and the one I want to switch to now has an offer price available and space, it is actually in Air Canada's interest to allow me to switch, they will get higher revenue for the seats I am vacating plus I will not spend two hours in the exec lounge eating all the food and drinks.

No the 'system' will not allow that change, you can book seats on the earlier flight but we cannot refund the seats on the later flight - the 'system' does not allow that either.

Whatever happened to common sense and customer service,can the system not be overidden, so I sit and watch an empty aircraft going where I want to go with space on it and then wait another two hours for the next one which I know is full ... just because the 'system will not allow it"....!

THE WORLD HAS GONE BONKERS!

I feel better now.... !

[DaveReidUK]

You can rest assured that Jazz, like any other LCC, will have done their sums.

They will have worked out that it's worth taking the occasional notional revenue hit in order to preserve the principle that passengers don't get to change their bookings for free, they either have to buy another ticket or pay a fee to transfer their ticket to another flight.

Whatever happened to common sense and customer service

Customer service always takes second place to the bottom line. As for "common sense", the airline's strategy makes perfect sense from their point of view.

[davidjohnson6]

The 80:20 rule says that to get a system to do most things you want is fairly straightforward. Getting it to do the unusual cases and exceptions is much much harder and costs far more cash to build and test the system.

Yes, Air Canada might have been able to change their system to handle situations like yours, but the IT cost would be so much larger that it's probably cheaper in terms of management time and monetary cost, to just put up with this and deal with other more important issues elsewhere in the airline

[Smoketrails]

Groundhog,

On arrival go straight to Jazz desk and ask if you can hop along on the earlier flight. Chances are they wil let you board the earlier flight without charge. Problem is your luggage might stay behind if all has to happen in a short time span...

[Capot]

My first confrontation with a computerised reservation system took place in 1974 (+/- a year or so, memory fades) when we installed a hard-wired system around the network of the airline I worked for. It was hosted on the BA system, whose name I forget.

As a Regional Manager with a Supervisor login code, I was enabled/empowered to override the system when necessary to avoid the "Computer says No" situation, when it was simple common-sense to see that the computer was not offering the best solution for a passenger, because it was impossible then, as now, to foresee and programme for every possible eventuality.

The problem we now face is that people are no longer trusted to act sensibly, as we were, so that the over-ride button is a thing of the past.

I ascribe this to the dead hand of B-schools, and the unimaginative, p**s-poor, "managers" who leave them able to set up a spreadsheet and make nice, fatuous presentations, but with no discernible trace of leadership in their bodies. You know, the sort of people who rule via emails because they lack the ability or confidence to lead properly.

Almost the first thing a leader needs to know is how to trust people under him or her, and let them get on with it.

[GROUNDHOG]

Capot you have it precisely. I go back a fair way in the business, to the 1960's and as an ex commercial and managing director of an airline fully understand how the system works. My argument is exactly as Capot says, in the old days it was possible to make allowances, do the logical thing, give customer satisfaction simply by manually over riding the booking system, no longer is this the case and it is not just in the airline business.Today it is all by the book, here is another example.

AC told me "You will have to go back to your Travel Agent and ask them to change the flight".... " I didn't book with a Travel Agent, I booked direct with BA as I always do".... " Sorry Sir, the system says you booked through a Travel Agent, so you must have done"....They still refuse to accept I booked direct with BA just because the screen says I didn't, to the point of calling me a liar, absolute billhooks.

There was always a big joke that one days computers would rule the World, it is not looking so funny now. The machine is now managing the operator and the operator is not trained, hasn't the authority or ability to change things.

As to the revenue calculations, the flight I want to leave is the most popular of the day and only has a couple of seats available at £441. The one I wish to switch to the seats are on sale at £139, now in my book that means AC would make more money than before......

I have now asked to go top of the standby list for the earlier flight in case there are last minute cancellations or no shows, let's see if I even get a reply to my request for that. Next time I will take the ferry.

[PAXboy]

• Passengers
• Consumers
• Customers

Debate ...

• "Best value for our shareholders"
• "Best value for our passengers who will then give best value to our shareholders." (aka Look after your customer and your customer will look after you")

Debate ...

I've worked in service industries since I was doing Saturdays in a department store when I was 16. One of the reasons I'm self-employed is that I hated not being able to help my customers.

Here's a simple 'case study' for the 'Children of the MBA line' :
My car is a niche brand and needs attention from those who know it. I am able to drop in unannounced (as I did last week) and ask the proprietor to listen to a funny noise that had just started two days earlier.

He stopped working on a car and listened. "Water pump's going, we need to change that quick". Obviously he didn't charge me for the consultation and I happily paid the cost of going back a couple of days later, paid for OEM parts. I sat in the 'lounge' and worked on free wi-fi and tea until it was done.

Sometimes, he's changed headlamp bulbs and said, "I'm busy at the moment and put it on the slate for your next service" So I'm away in minutes.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen is Customer Service. Irrespective of the computer or not! that kind of service costs more than going to a Kwik-Fit but I cheerfully pay for that service, knowing that my car is in best condition (I only have one car and rely on it for work). People will pay for good service and his good service ensures that I go back AND reccomend him.

To use the vernacular: It's shopkeeping 1.01

[GROUNDHOG]

Quite right and having paid over three thousand pounds for two Transatlantic tickets with two national airlines that was the level of service I was expecting...I could have booked Canadian Affair on Air Transat for half that amount but paid extra because I wanted the best.

( Nothing wrong with Air Transat by the way, I am sure they offer excellent value for money and efficiency!)

I did incidentally offer to buy two more seats on the earlier flight, they were happy to sell them to me but couldn't refund the seats on the later flight..... you guessed it the system doesn't allow for that, it is a non changeble non refundable ticket!!

[PAXboy]

Friend of mine had a contrasting experience with the 'computer says no' approach of the airlines.

She was going to France last week with a car load of family and friends. They had booked the Eurotunnel train for 19:50. They found traffic on the M25 lighter than expected and arrived at the Channel Tunnel over an hour ahead of schedule. "Good evening madam, would you like to wait for your booked train, or take the next one?"

So, at no extra charge, they immediately drove to the departure ranks and left a full hour ahead.

That appears to be one of the ways in which Eurotunnel are separating themselves friom the airlines. Their customer is very happy and they also free up a space on a later train - in case they get more early arrivals, or a late booking.

It is so simple.

[Gibon2]

To be fair, easyJet has a similar policy - if you show up early, you can transfer to an earlier flight for free (assuming there is a seat available). In cities where EZY flies from more than one airport, you can even get an earlier flight from a different airport - still free. The only restriction is that this policy only applies to the return leg of a booking, not the outward leg.

As PAXboy says, this is a win-win for carrier and pax. Strange that it's not more widespread - and even EZY doesn't exactly advertise the option: you have to dig deep in the website to find it.

[Hartington]

You can look at this from a different point of view.

When I was a sprog travel agent back in the very early 1970s I was asked to book a group from Geneva to London. I got onto BEA(!) who said they couldn't do it.

The person who had asked then travelled to Geneva and visited BEA there. They sold the required seats in the form of little groups of 4 (which was the maximum they could sell in one transaction - 4 at a time). They didn't ask "groups" in London. Effectively they overrode the system, completely messed up any kind of yield control that BEA ran in those days and quite possibly oversold the plane.

If airlines are going to make money they need control over the sale of their product. And that can mean that we sometimes can't get the seats we want.

Now think about this. BA operate an early flight London Paris every day. Most weekdays that plane will fill with business people who book late. Therefore, if you try and book a cheap seat on that plane you probably can't; they'll only sell seats that command a higher fare. And it gets worse (or better) because not all seats (at the same fare) are equal. The decision whether to sell that seat can also depend on who is asking. They may want to retain seats for people connecting from their own (or other oneWorld partners) flights. Air Canada may be doing something along those lines.

[davidjohnson6]

Paxboy + Gibon - Hartington has a point.

In the past I've had to fly from Heraklion to London. When booking I saw there were 2 flights over an hour apart. The 9 pm flight to Luton was my preferred flight but more expensive. The 11 pm flight to Gatwick looked grim but was cheaper.

I paid for the later and cheaper flight. The night before flying to the UK I saw on the web Easyjet still had seats on the earlier flight available. Next evening, went to airport at 8 pm, had booking changed to earlier flight for free and got flight I originally wanted but at the lower price.

Now when booking Easyjet flights to the UK, if a later flight is cheaper I always book it, in the knowledge that no shows mean there are usually a few seats spare. Sure there will be times I get caught out, but the booking on the later flight guarantees me passage to London anyway. Great way to save cash on airfares, but trashes Easyjet's yield mamagement system.

Easyjet should offer a 'catch an earlier flight home for free' only when it's in the airline's interest (ie later flight is [almost] overbooked or last minute sales are likely) - otherwise too easy for people like me to game the system

[PAXboy]

Yes, agree that Hartington's example is perfectly fair. Those of us who travel often or have an interest in commercial aviation know that - many of their tourist/holiday pax don't. However, that is how markets develop and when competition CAN work in favour of the client.

[Dan Winterland]

Little Britain - Computer says No! -7- Lourdes - YouTube

[rmac]

@ Dave Reid

"You can rest assured that Jazz......will have done their sums"..

No you can't !

I'm in private equity and we invest in a broad spectrum of industries and more often than I like so called "professional management" present sums to us that are total tosh...

An aircraft seat is a "perishable" item. If it departs empty a revenue opportunity is lost, as indeed is a flexibility opportunity to reduce pressure on a heavily booked later flight and reduce the risk of paying denied boarding compensation. In this day an age it should be easy to develop software which tells you that you arrive at a solution which benefits both airline and passenger.

But it does appear that the airline booking systems are still rooted somewhere in the 1970's

[Capot]

The whole point is that in the 1970's we could use our common-sense and if you could fill a flight sector with people booked on a later flight who wanted to go earlier and were ready to go, that's exactly what we did, up until the moment that an LMC was no longer possible. The accompanied dash through emigration to the gate was not a rare occurrence.

Once the doors were closed, we worked on filling the seats on the next flight on that sector that had suddenly become available for sale.

Win-win, I think the term is.

Now all I see is poorly trained puppets at the check-in who are too scared of their own shadows to do anything unusual. They are scared with good reason because doing anything unusual might cost them their jobs, regardless of the fact that it may please a customer and be potentially profitable for their employer.

The blame lies fair and square on modern middle and senior management, and their toxic mix of poor leadership, lack of knowledge and front-line experience, and enslavement to emails and spreadsheets. In short, they have all the characteristics of people with "MBA" after their names.

[Hotel Tango]

Now all I see is poorly trained puppets at the check-in who are too scared of their own shadows to do anything unusual. They are scared with good reason because doing anything unusual might cost them their jobs, regardless of the fact that it may please a customer and be potentially profitable for their employer.

The blame lies fair and square on modern middle and senior management, and their toxic mix of poor leadership, lack of knowledge and front-line experience, and enslavement to emails and spreadsheets. In short, they have all the characteristics of people with "MBA" after their names.

100% spot on, and I think most of us know that now. I often wonder if this trend will ever be reversed, or will just get worse?

[DaveReidUK]

They are scared with good reason because doing anything unusual might cost them their jobs, regardless of the fact that it may please a customer and be potentially profitable for their employer.

You're forgetting the fact that their employer is already profiting by virtue of being able to pay half what it would cost to hire employees who possess common sense and initiative.

[PAXboy]

Hotel Tango

100% spot on, and I think most of us know that now. I often wonder if this trend will ever be reversed, or will just get worse?

I think it has to get worse before it get's better. Why? because it is not yet bad enough.

One classic example is Continental in the USA. Read Gordon Bethune's From Worst to First.

Generally speaking, humans have to get to a VERY low ebb before they make things better. The two catalysts are usually money and/or death. In the airline world, death is very expensive.

[GROUNDHOG]

I do understand airline economics, I used to be the managing director of one so I guess I probably should. The point in this case is that the flight I am on is the lost popular and is selling at a higher yield as it is the last flight of the day and the one I want to switch to is selling at a lower yield... it is in AC's INTEREST to let me switch!

Anyway I have e mailed and asked if I could go on the top of the wait list for the earlier flight in case of no shows, no reply of course, there probably isn't a system for that either.