The system will not allow it.....

[ExXB]

I think the guys in AC's Revenue Management / Payload control may have a handle on this.

The flight in question is open in higher classes but closed in lower for a reason other than to irritate you. This could be because this flight has a history of last minute bookings and/or go-shows (at full/higher fares) or for taking the spill from earlier flights which have a history of being overbooked, or ... ????

By all means go to the gate and see if they will accommodate you, and let us know what happens.

[davidjohnson6]

Groundhog - it's only in the airline's interest to let you switch if one of the following happens
1) Later flight reaches maximum overbooking level at least an hour before the earlier flight is due to depart
2) More people than there are seats are expected to turn up for the later flight

Just because the later flight commands a higher fare, does not mean that it's worth letting you switch. If by letting you switch flights, the later flight ends up with one of more empty seats, the airline has not gained but has lost potential revenue by
a) not forcing you to pay up some cash to switch flights
b) weakened the airline's public claim that higher priced tickets are worth more because they can be changed, meaning you and your family no longer see reason to spend on a changeable ticket when a non-changeable ticket is cheaper.

Ignoring the BA / travel agent issue, if I were working for AC I'd give you a flat "Sorry sir / madam, if you want to change flights you must pay the change fee" unless one of conditions 1) or 2) held

[James 1077]

But it was Air Canada that changed the flight originally - which meant that the earlier flight becomes a viable option, having not been pre-change.

It would therefore seem like good business sense to tell your passenger, put out by a change that Air Canada has made, that the flight that they were booked on is now leaving 45 minutes later; but they will happily put you on an earlier flight / put you on standby for an earlier flight.

[GROUNDHOG]

I would be quite willing to pay a change fee. I would be quite willing to pay the appropriate full fare and be refunded the lower fare. I don't even mind standing up all the way it is only a fifteen minute flight! No options exist.

This post was not intended to 'have a go' at Air Canada but a demonstration of how the 'service' element of flying today has disappeared especially among the bigger airlines.

If I make the crossing with Harbour Air on the seaplane they are totally flexible, they carry more passengers than AC on this route - no use this time though they do not fly at night. They will fly packages across, you can take excess baggage down on an earlier flight ( it is only an otter so space is limited) etc etc.

I ran a commuter airline, I also spent the best part of 25 years juggling charter flights their yields and contribution. In all cases reservations were able to look at individual cases and use there initiative. There was always a telephone number the passenger could call and talk to someone who had the power to at least look at the position sensibly, even if the answer was no.

Today so often there isn't.

I can see the difference between a small airline that carries thousands, not hundreds of thousands and the practicalities in that.

We have lost something along the way and as others have posted earlier nothing will change until it becomes intollerable.

I will let you know what happens 'on the day'.

[Peter47]

There can be issues with IT. A few years ago BA cancelled a LHR - AMS flight I was on but I was unable to change my booking online. In desperation I popped into a BA office (it was a few years ago). The agents quickly booked me onto the previous flight and remarked to her colleague that the system was trying to charge me £50 to change a cancelled flight which may have been why I could not do it.

On another occasion I was upgraded on BA following being bumped a few years ago and remember the front line agent saying that he had to wait for a supervisor in the office to action it on the system.

With Delta it used to be up to the agent (the one after baggage reclaim said no, the one at the gate said yes). It may well have changed now - I don't know.

IT is getting more sophisticated as a result and load factors are increasing (typically 85% and 95% in peak months). As mentioned airlines trust the IT rather than staff now.

[PAXboy]

If I recall correctly, in the late 1970s (or early 80s) the Volvo motor company changed their production line.

Instead of having small groups repeating one section of manufacture, they trained the small groups to make a motor car. Each group started with (effectively) a box of bits and worked with the car all the way through until it drove off the end of the line. Then they started again.

As a result, staff morale hit the roof and the quality of the vehicles improved greatly. The cost increased. As I understand it, when the company was bought (by Ford, I think) that all changed.

I sit to be corrected on any of the above as i could not find any online reference to it.

Whether true or not - you instinctively know it makes sense. People want to feel part of something, not just part of a production line.

One of the biggest problems that I saw from the late 1980s onward (still present) was the idea of making the departments of a large company more autonomous. On paper - it sounds like a good idea:

• Be responsible for your own budget
• Be responsible within your team
• Make sure your team does 'the best'

But what I saw developing was:

• Save money and penny pinch so as to get a bonus, even if the department suffers
• Be responsible ONLY within your team. Don't worry about the team who handle the process before you - or those that take it on from you. Just do your thing and if the other departments don't like it? Try to ensure that it's their problem.
• Compete with everyone to show the MD that you are best and forget what the rest of the company is doing.

Subsequently, the company breaks up and departments forget about their neighbours. Profits fall and it's all the fault of the staff NOT the honcho who introduced the scheme, or those that implemented it.

With an airline (as in any large company) the folks who took the original booking felt as much a part of the company as those who put the bags on the carousel at the destination. Everyone inbetween wanted to make the complete system work.

Today?

[Shack37]

Rather than start a new thread I'd like to consult here about my own "system won't allow it" problem.

I made and had confirmed a booking with AF Bilbao to Aberdeen via CdG.
Then received email from AF requesting API personal/passport information.
Entered the AF website to supply same and had the data rejected because of the dates of birth.

It seems when making the booking I had a senior (pun intended) moment and ticked the "Adults" box instead of "Seniors"

My wife and I are both EU citizens, she Spanish, I UK and living in Spain. Is API required and does it matter that we are seniors and not "adults"?

I have tried their modify your booking page but it does not allow for change of age group.

Hate to arrive at check-in and meet with complications.

[pax britanica]

Cannot help feeling that those of us not on the flight deck have as earlier indicated to deal with children of the MBA line compared to the magemnta line. Same process same problems
Airline booking sophistication occasionally works equally bizarrely in your favour though.
Some years ago I used to go to huge every 4 years trade fair at the conference venue next to Geneva airport. The event outgrew the cities hotel capacity so lots of people flew in for a day and left the same day.
Airlines of course realised this and priced accordingly. However around the turn of the century recession appeared in the telecoms industry and the edict came down every where that thou shall only fly economy.
So now BA who operated 767s to GVA for this week racked up the Y class prices sky high to the point that they were higher than J class and made a fortune because the plane is 85% Y anyway and was going to be full. So close to the day of travel down came the J fares cos that cabin otherwise was empty. I was tipped off about his by a BA friend and we had a comfortable trip other ways with several more senior people in the company jammed in Y. of course there were accusations we had committed the heinous sin of traveling in J but the US based CFO just laughed and said we had just been the smart ones. So sometimes the system does you a favour-not often tho

[ExXB]

Originally Posted by Shack37

Rather than start a new thread

Yes, both the UK and Spain require APIS information. I'd be surprised if either had a 'seniors' category, and surprised that AF would have that in their system.

A child travelling alone, or with only one parent, might raise issues but I don't think a senior would.

[Shack37]

ExXB

Many thanks for your reply, It's a couple of years since we visited the UK and I couldn't remember if it was required then. When I made the booking I didn't notice a seniors but when the APIS page rejected the birth dates I went back and tried a pretend booking and sure enough, there was a seniors category.

Guess I'll try phoning tomorrow to avoid any possible hiccups when checking in if it won't let me print out our boarding passes online.

[OverRun]

Paxboy,

The following search terms in Google will unlock the support for your recollections:

emery volvo self managed

The first 2 links (after the sponsored Volvo ad) cover it nicely.

[Shack37]

Just a brief update on my previous post about submitting APIS data on the AF website. Prior to calling their help desk I tried again submitting online and the information was accepted.
Many thanks AF.

[fdcg27]

It has been my experience that the agents at the airport have a lot more flexibility than do those on the phone and most websites offer no flexibility at all.
I'd inquire at the airport when you depart.
If that fails, you can almost certainly get this change at no charge on the ground in Canada, although checked bags might be a problem.
A confident and friendly attitude will solve many travel problems.
Way early at the airport and wishing for an earlier flight than the one on which you're booked?
Just go to the counter and ask. If they have seats available, you'll probably get the change at no charge. Done that.
Potentially stuck in the Carribean (really awful, I know) during the northern winter due to weather to the north?
Just go up to the counter, smile and speak calmly and you'll get a seat on another flight to your connecting airport, while the many who rant and rave are put on standby. You can smile at them as you board and wave at them at the gate as your aircraft is pushed back. Done that.
Potentially stuck in Newark (and that really would be awful) because of weather?
Just persist in pushing the agents handling rebooks to find you an interline that will get you to your destination ASAP. Smile and remain calm, but don't accept the first offer of a flight three days later on their airline.
We then got an CRJ home the following day and spent the night in a really decent chain hotel across the field. Had a decent meal and a Guiness or two. The shuttle ride to LGA which involved passing through the Holland Tunnel and Chinatown was also a hoot.
Upgrade to the front of the airplane at minimal cost?
Ask at check-in, and if that fails, ask again at the gate. It is better at check-in, since that saves you the cost of paying for checked bags in the U.S., but a little space is nice either way on flights of anything more than a couple of hours. Done this a number of times.
Bottom line is that it pays to ask a real live person you're looking in the eyes.
They have more flexibility in accomodating passengers than many seem to think.

[PAXboy]

That might be the case in the USA, fdcg27. One of the methods of dealing with requests that the airline do not want to deal with is this. You seek a change or an upgrade, a reroute - whatever it might be and you DO ask politely:-

1. At check-in, "You'll have to ask about that at the gate"
2. At the gate, "You'll have to ask about that on board"
3. On Board, "They can only handle that at check-in."
4. Game, Set and Match

Done that - and more than once!!

[CelticRambler]

Originally Posted by GROUNDHOG

Whatever happened to common sense and customer service ...

"... many airlines don’t have customer service anymore, they have departments of customer compliance" Mike Boyd of Evergreen at the 15th Annual Boyd Group International Aviation Forecast Summit

Originally Posted by rmac

"You can rest assured that Jazz......will have done their sums"..

No you can't !

I'm in private equity and we invest in a broad spectrum of industries and more often than I like so called "professional management" present sums to us that are total tosh...

The level of bankruptcy in the aviation sector tends to indicate that dyscalculia is particularly high amongst airline managers.

Originally Posted by PAXboy

If I recall correctly, in the late 1970s (or early 80s) the Volvo motor company changed their production line.

Instead of having small groups repeating one section of manufacture, they trained the small groups to make a motor car. Each group started with (effectively) a box of bits and worked with the car all the way through until it drove off the end of the line. Then they started again.

As a result, staff morale hit the roof and the quality of the vehicles improved greatly. The cost increased. As I understand it, when the company was bought (by Ford, I think) that all changed.

I sit to be corrected on any of the above as i could not find any online reference to it.

While unable to confirm or deny the above, the converse is certainly true, as exemplified by the disastrous "streamlining" of production at Waterford Crystal in the 1990s. There, "family groups" of glass-blowers, apprentice cutters and master craftsmen were separated into more efficient manufacturing units. Of course, one benefit to the company was supposed to be a reduced workforce so a reasonably generous voluntary redundancy package was offered to one and all.

On paper, it first looked like a great success: the workforce was reduced by about 30% and the savings were considerable. Until it became clear that most of that 30% was made up of master craftsmen who promptly set up shop on their own account. The now efficiently industrialised Waterford Crystal could not respond to being attacked in every one of its traditional markets because it was left with a cohort of partially-trained apprentices and eventually collapsed into a banal, largely out-sourced, label.

Airline revenue/yield management is frequently held up as a Sacred Truth, but it appears to be entirely founded on the 1970s needs of buiness travellers. In reality, survey after survey shows that this group of passengers typically makes up around 15-25% of overall seat sales. Any other retailer would concentrate their efforts on catering to the majority and adapt their product accordingly.

[Capot]

concentrate their efforts on catering to the majority and adapt their product accordingly

I think the LoCos were ahead of you there......

[fdcg27]

Very good point.
Anyone who doesn't want to give you an honest answer can always defer you to another level.
Still, it never hurts to ask and to persist, since you'll often get the answer that you want.

[PAXboy]

One of the most reliable contradictions in upgrade policy of BA in the 1990s and 2000s was revealed by two friends of mine. One lives in the USA and the other in the UK.

They discovered that mileage earnings [at that time] were higher for those that lived in the other country. Each registered for BA Exec + Miles (as was) at the other's address and used email to update each other.

The US friend earnt more miles when travelling 'home' and the UK friend more when travelling 'home'. Further, our US friend, then in her early 60s and rececently widowed, got given upgrades to C - in 8 sectors out of 10. This on BA back to LHR and when going 'away'. She got these without asking. She NEVER asked but was given the upgrades time after time.

Funny old world.

[ExXB]

PaxBoy one of the Cardinal rules of the international airline industry is:

Rule 1: One does not sh*t in one's backyard.

Meaning that rules are closely applied in the airline's home country, but less so in offshore markets. For good reason, if you think about it.

[fdcg27]

How clever!
Could this still work?
Does it work for any other airlines or alliances?