BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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Its all very fishy to me. Red herrings everywhere!
There is strong feeling running against Holley and his vendetta and it gets stronger every day. A vendetta that is vicious while remaining just within bounds. I personally have no doubts at all that he sees the cabin crew as his flock of lambs who follow him where he likes to take them. It is so easy to detect. His brazen ignorance and arrogance is that of a 70's brainwashed union leader. Holley now USES BASSA for his own ends now that he cannot represent its members.
As Diplome wrote:
Absolutely right. For one thing, the pilots and the rest of the huge workforce of BA have done their deals with BA via Unite and are happy enough but mad as hell with BASSA and Holley in particular. The solution to this problem of Holley hanging on to BASSA is reachable. Holley represents no-one but himself. He justifies himself by his little oft times silly 'announcements' to keep the lambs behind him while thousands more want him out.
If enough people tell BASSA they have no confidence in their secretary, Malone and the other militants, I believe that they have to call a meeting to have the miscreants removed.
Just don't follow Duncan Holley!
There is strong feeling running against Holley and his vendetta and it gets stronger every day. A vendetta that is vicious while remaining just within bounds. I personally have no doubts at all that he sees the cabin crew as his flock of lambs who follow him where he likes to take them. It is so easy to detect. His brazen ignorance and arrogance is that of a 70's brainwashed union leader. Holley now USES BASSA for his own ends now that he cannot represent its members.
As Diplome wrote:
This is not about pilots, not about other airline's practices, it's about BA and the militant faction of BASSA.
If enough people tell BASSA they have no confidence in their secretary, Malone and the other militants, I believe that they have to call a meeting to have the miscreants removed.
Just don't follow Duncan Holley!
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Diplome
With the very greatest of respect, you sound like a PR for BA.
I don't care what happens to BA or BASSA, but I do recognise a nasty industrial dispute, where both parties get themselves locked into fixed positions and there is no good will left to ease the way back to normla relations.
This ongoing state (which must be damaging the brand) does no credit to management or union.
BUIt I say again, it is of no impact to me, so I don't care too much about the outcome.
With the very greatest of respect, you sound like a PR for BA.
I don't care what happens to BA or BASSA, but I do recognise a nasty industrial dispute, where both parties get themselves locked into fixed positions and there is no good will left to ease the way back to normla relations.
This ongoing state (which must be damaging the brand) does no credit to management or union.
BUIt I say again, it is of no impact to me, so I don't care too much about the outcome.
Thread Starter
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If you are aware of a user posting on the CC thread who is not serving airline staff then please PM me with proof (repeat, proof) and I will ensure that an immediate ban is applied.
Interesting to you, possibly, as you pirouette polysyllabically at the imagined centre of attraction, but to few others actually involved in the dispute. Grow up.
Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah
...That gives recognition to an entitlement which is denied to others whose service and experience in the airline industry would be perhaps be more intelligent and constructive, less biased and just possibly altogether more interesting.
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Yes but slowly and surely balance is beginning to creep in here. It's been my main point, I am absolutely against what Bassa are doing but equally against lynch mob mentality. Unfortunately exactly that has been prevalent probably even more so on the other thread.
The fact is management haven't behaved impeccably either. I am also astounded how much support a company has that openly admitted it was involved in illegal activities which cost the company a quarter of a billion pounds in fines.
So who does have the moral high ground, management or Bassa exercising their legal right to challenge?
The fact is management haven't behaved impeccably either. I am also astounded how much support a company has that openly admitted it was involved in illegal activities which cost the company a quarter of a billion pounds in fines.
So who does have the moral high ground, management or Bassa exercising their legal right to challenge?
The BA illegal* activities SC didn't affect me personally SC. Whereas BASSA's activities have.
Accordingly, I recognise that I and perhaps most SLF on here have a natural bias. Union supporters also have a bias. Thus the debate continues.
Would you prefer that this thread is only posted on by SLF who have never actually flown BA, are not Union members or Management of any company, and thus are strictly neutral?
If you found such a person who was sufficiently disinterested to be strictly neutral, do you think they would have enough interest in this dispute to post here?
*Though whether its correct to them illegal is dubious at best given that the criminal case collapsed and the fines have not yet been paid.
Accordingly, I recognise that I and perhaps most SLF on here have a natural bias. Union supporters also have a bias. Thus the debate continues.
Would you prefer that this thread is only posted on by SLF who have never actually flown BA, are not Union members or Management of any company, and thus are strictly neutral?
If you found such a person who was sufficiently disinterested to be strictly neutral, do you think they would have enough interest in this dispute to post here?
*Though whether its correct to them illegal is dubious at best given that the criminal case collapsed and the fines have not yet been paid.
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its not about being neutral mariner its about not being savaged because you didn't agree that all Bassa members should be hung drawn and quartered and what a horrible bunch of company killing fools they are.
BA activities remain illegal regardless of the collapse of the case as BA themselves admitted they did it. To be clear on the size of the fine, all CC could have been given a 2,000 pound a year pay rise, each year for the next 10 years.
Who is actually costing the company money and why haven't management been vilified for their behaviour?
BA activities remain illegal regardless of the collapse of the case as BA themselves admitted they did it. To be clear on the size of the fine, all CC could have been given a 2,000 pound a year pay rise, each year for the next 10 years.
Who is actually costing the company money and why haven't management been vilified for their behaviour?
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SafetyConcern:
With all due respect the issue of price-fixing has nothing to do with this dispute.
Again, I don't believe you will find a member of this forum who does not believe that BASSA has a "right" to strike. However, BA, its employees and the flying public have a right to disagree with BASSA's actions and to support BA in its battle against this rather disagreeable group of individuals intent on inflicting as much damage as possible on the airline.
Moral high ground has nothing to do with it...though it is hardly owned by BASSA in this instance.
Lotpax:
Your insinuation that I may be BA PR carries as much weight as SafetyConcerns accusation on another thread that someone who was expressing a differing view was a "management stooge".
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...scussions.html
More than happy to engage in a debate regarding issues and I don't care if you're a Union rep., etc.. Facts are facts.
RTR: I agree regarding Mr. Holley's communications. They are starting to read like the "fill" you see in a young student's report as he tries desperately to reach the 500 word minimum required by his instructor. Lots of words, very little substance.
With all due respect the issue of price-fixing has nothing to do with this dispute.
Again, I don't believe you will find a member of this forum who does not believe that BASSA has a "right" to strike. However, BA, its employees and the flying public have a right to disagree with BASSA's actions and to support BA in its battle against this rather disagreeable group of individuals intent on inflicting as much damage as possible on the airline.
Moral high ground has nothing to do with it...though it is hardly owned by BASSA in this instance.
Lotpax:
Your insinuation that I may be BA PR carries as much weight as SafetyConcerns accusation on another thread that someone who was expressing a differing view was a "management stooge".
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...scussions.html
More than happy to engage in a debate regarding issues and I don't care if you're a Union rep., etc.. Facts are facts.
RTR: I agree regarding Mr. Holley's communications. They are starting to read like the "fill" you see in a young student's report as he tries desperately to reach the 500 word minimum required by his instructor. Lots of words, very little substance.
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What a complete non-sequitor. So the undoubted mistakes of previous BA managers give BASSA a licence to behave the way it has? What utter drivel.
No-one is going to defend BA's involvement in price fixing and those who were responsible have paid a very high price for it. Their careers have been destroyed. The losses from fines were taken in previous years and had no bearing on the losses of the past couple of years. In fact, the company has not yet paid the UK fine, and is seeking to get it withdrawn after the collapse of the criminal trial.
Who holds BASSA accountable for the needless £150m of damage they've inflicted on BA?
Perhaps the reason for an apparent lack of "balance" in discussion is BASSA have never actually stated their case. All we can say fir certain is they have a pathological obsession with Willie Walsh.
No-one is going to defend BA's involvement in price fixing and those who were responsible have paid a very high price for it. Their careers have been destroyed. The losses from fines were taken in previous years and had no bearing on the losses of the past couple of years. In fact, the company has not yet paid the UK fine, and is seeking to get it withdrawn after the collapse of the criminal trial.
Who holds BASSA accountable for the needless £150m of damage they've inflicted on BA?
Perhaps the reason for an apparent lack of "balance" in discussion is BASSA have never actually stated their case. All we can say fir certain is they have a pathological obsession with Willie Walsh.
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KBPsen
Funny old mob this. A few dozen people having a, sometimes lively, debate.
When you say 'woe' what do you mean?
Nobody has to conform apart from to some basic rules of the forum.
You can say, virtually, whatever you want.
Here's what I say:
BASSA are lying about the membership numbers. They will find themselves in court within two years as a consequence. If a ballot was held now on strike action the number voting 'for' would be less than 5000, probably nearer to 3000 - in both cases a majority of actual members but also a minority of cabin crew.
It is all over bar the shouting.
When you say 'woe' what do you mean?
Nobody has to conform apart from to some basic rules of the forum.
You can say, virtually, whatever you want.
Here's what I say:
BASSA are lying about the membership numbers. They will find themselves in court within two years as a consequence. If a ballot was held now on strike action the number voting 'for' would be less than 5000, probably nearer to 3000 - in both cases a majority of actual members but also a minority of cabin crew.
It is all over bar the shouting.
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The point is with the price fixing situation is that you all remained silent. The sum involved is just as valid as the claimed sums involved with Bassa so by default can cause the same amount of damage.
Diplome please look at your quotes:
Yet where's the fact in your next quote
That is your take on the situation, it isn't fact.
However LD I may agree with
Then comes Mr Pony
If only that were true. I am banned from the other thread because some snitch has claimed I am not airline staff. Now who would make such a claim, a Bassa supporter?
But enough of all this. Balanced discussion is what I seek and not opinions dressed up as facts Diplome.
Diplome please look at your quotes:
More than happy to engage in a debate regarding issues and I don't care if you're a Union rep., etc.. Facts are facts.
support BA in its battle against this rather disagreeable group of individuals intent on inflicting as much damage as possible on the airline
However LD I may agree with
Perhaps the reason for an apparent lack of "balance" in discussion is BASSA have never actually stated their case.
Nobody has to conform apart from to some basic rules of the forum.
You can say, virtually, whatever you want.
You can say, virtually, whatever you want.
But enough of all this. Balanced discussion is what I seek and not opinions dressed up as facts Diplome.
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BASSA are lying about the membership numbers. They will find themselves in court within two years as a consequence. If a ballot was held now on strike action the number voting 'for' would be less than 5000, probably nearer to 3000 - in both cases a majority of actual members but also a minority of cabin crew. It is all over bar the shouting.
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"snitch"?? Come now. If you are an employee of an airline it is rather easy to communicate with the Moderators here to gain access.
If I posted on the Cabin Crew thread I would rightly be removed. It has nothing to do with our opinions and everything to do with the rather simple rules of the forum.
....and this is an opinion. You will post them from time to time, I will, as will others. It does not take away the facts that are also sprinkled through our posts. 
If I posted on the Cabin Crew thread I would rightly be removed. It has nothing to do with our opinions and everything to do with the rather simple rules of the forum.
Mr pony we agree apart from the lying. I think its incompetence.
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SC,
So that we can lay the much worn out (by BASSA) "price-fixing fine" issue, the fines imposed (which I believe have yet to be paid) were supposedly for what is in effect illegal profiteering, yes? Ergo the money paid out is probably comparable to (or who knows, even less than?) the amount of illegal profit made.
So this isn't money that's just been thrown away. Just money that in effect has been given back.
Move along now, there's nothing further to discuss here (and nor is there any point in dragging up fuel hedging, as that's not related to this dispute either, despite Duncan Thickett's pathetic attempts at making it so).
So that we can lay the much worn out (by BASSA) "price-fixing fine" issue, the fines imposed (which I believe have yet to be paid) were supposedly for what is in effect illegal profiteering, yes? Ergo the money paid out is probably comparable to (or who knows, even less than?) the amount of illegal profit made.
So this isn't money that's just been thrown away. Just money that in effect has been given back.
Move along now, there's nothing further to discuss here (and nor is there any point in dragging up fuel hedging, as that's not related to this dispute either, despite Duncan Thickett's pathetic attempts at making it so).
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Diplome you are missing the point again. I am airline and I don't feel the need to prove it because of the unsupported claims of a snitch. I would rather not post.
You should be concerned that some individual goes to such lengths. Rather sad really when you think about it.
But lets draw a line under all this and get back to "balanced debate".
What do we think will happen next?
You should be concerned that some individual goes to such lengths. Rather sad really when you think about it.
But lets draw a line under all this and get back to "balanced debate".
What do we think will happen next?
What do we think will happen next?
Another neutral factual view might be that it will be difficult for BASSA to come up with a reason for further IA unconnected with the previous dispute, thus putting strikers at risk.
My biased view is that BASSA will likely attempt to ballot for further IA, given that their leadership is intent on inflicting damage on BA regardless of the cost to their members and they are likely to get ~3000 votes in favour of action and an unknown number (probably lower than 3K due to declining membership)voting against.
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mrpony:
Your posts regarding membership numbers are intruiging. I know that BASSA has lost members since this issue started but are you aware of a site that has the complete numbers for membership represented and voting results.
I'm actually hoping to not have to go and hunt them out on the CC thread myself
safety concerns:
I know. Tears are falling on my keyboard as I type this.
Your posts regarding membership numbers are intruiging. I know that BASSA has lost members since this issue started but are you aware of a site that has the complete numbers for membership represented and voting results.
I'm actually hoping to not have to go and hunt them out on the CC thread myself
safety concerns:
Rather sad really when you think about it.
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How about this scenario. A deal will be done. Bassa are in trouble now with the numbers and Willie knows it but he isn't prepared to actually finish them off.
So he drags this out to make them sweat and then a compromise is found to avoid any further strikes.
Would Bassa survive in the aftermath of such a scenario?
Would Unite be damaged by this?
So he drags this out to make them sweat and then a compromise is found to avoid any further strikes.
Would Bassa survive in the aftermath of such a scenario?
Would Unite be damaged by this?
I have been away for a few days and am now playing catch up with the thread with a comment in the blinds issue.
During that time away I was privileged to fly the Air France A380 LHR/CDG and return. On the return the Captain informed us that the take off weight was 370 tons and that there were 500 pax on board. The CC sat opposite me said that there were 17 CC. During the 40 minute flight every pax was served with a drink and snack. Now I wonder what BASSAs comment would have been had they been requested to to the same.
The CC that I spoke to did say that they were not happy with doing the service but that it kept her in a job. Despite the reluctance all the crew that I witnessed were very pleasant.
Quote from SafetyConcerns:
"In fact all your office staff, why can't you clean up the office before you go and I don't need to employ a cleaner. Where does it end? Where does it start?"
For your information I work in an office and we do clear up at the end of the day leaving the cleaner to mop the floor and polish the windows. Quite normal in the real world I believe and the cost saving probably helps keep me in a job too.
During that time away I was privileged to fly the Air France A380 LHR/CDG and return. On the return the Captain informed us that the take off weight was 370 tons and that there were 500 pax on board. The CC sat opposite me said that there were 17 CC. During the 40 minute flight every pax was served with a drink and snack. Now I wonder what BASSAs comment would have been had they been requested to to the same.
The CC that I spoke to did say that they were not happy with doing the service but that it kept her in a job. Despite the reluctance all the crew that I witnessed were very pleasant.Quote from SafetyConcerns:
"In fact all your office staff, why can't you clean up the office before you go and I don't need to employ a cleaner. Where does it end? Where does it start?"
For your information I work in an office and we do clear up at the end of the day leaving the cleaner to mop the floor and polish the windows. Quite normal in the real world I believe and the cost saving probably helps keep me in a job too.