BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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The real issue here is nothing to do with the merits of blinds down or up.
It is about the need for new, fully flexible open contracts similar to those worked by most of the rest of humanity which say the company has bought "x" amount of your time and that for an agreed remuneration you will come to work, do whatever is reasonably required of you well, expeditiously and cheerfully and at the end of the day go home feeling you've done a good day's work. The BASSA view, similar to old heavy industry unions, is that every aspect of what people do should be subject to union control, remain described in minute detail so that anything new or outside it is "not agreed". It is what strangled many other British companies and industries (and the people working in them) while ironically the unions which presided over this live on, even if in merged form. The idea of pride in your work, in your company or your workplace viewed is seen as alien and in some way undesirable. Individual's enthisiasm and initiative is also trodden underfoot. Happy employees do not make good fodder for traditional unions who see anything not specifically pre-agreed is seen as "new work" and a horrific imposition and the basis for their beloved ongoing aggravation and trench warfare.
A lot of people in BA, including many cabin crew, want a new future and are happy to change to have the best chance of securing one (bearing in mind that nothing us guaranteed in the 21st century ). They do not want the heavy hand of BASSA or anyone else on their shoulder saying "Don't do that, don't even pick up that bit of litter or we will give you a hard time".It's time for BA's staff to stand up and tell BASSA/Unite to get off their backs and let them enjoy their jobs without the constant background noise of misery.
It is about the need for new, fully flexible open contracts similar to those worked by most of the rest of humanity which say the company has bought "x" amount of your time and that for an agreed remuneration you will come to work, do whatever is reasonably required of you well, expeditiously and cheerfully and at the end of the day go home feeling you've done a good day's work. The BASSA view, similar to old heavy industry unions, is that every aspect of what people do should be subject to union control, remain described in minute detail so that anything new or outside it is "not agreed". It is what strangled many other British companies and industries (and the people working in them) while ironically the unions which presided over this live on, even if in merged form. The idea of pride in your work, in your company or your workplace viewed is seen as alien and in some way undesirable. Individual's enthisiasm and initiative is also trodden underfoot. Happy employees do not make good fodder for traditional unions who see anything not specifically pre-agreed is seen as "new work" and a horrific imposition and the basis for their beloved ongoing aggravation and trench warfare.
A lot of people in BA, including many cabin crew, want a new future and are happy to change to have the best chance of securing one (bearing in mind that nothing us guaranteed in the 21st century ). They do not want the heavy hand of BASSA or anyone else on their shoulder saying "Don't do that, don't even pick up that bit of litter or we will give you a hard time".It's time for BA's staff to stand up and tell BASSA/Unite to get off their backs and let them enjoy their jobs without the constant background noise of misery.
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Skylion:
Interesting post though I feel compelled to state that BASSA is truly giving the word "Union" a poorer image. Many Unions are good organizations that work in partnership with management to provide the best possible structure for their members while maintaining a workplace that can accomodate change and profitability.
BASSA seems to simply be divorced from any thought regarding the well-being of BA, co-workers and their customers.
Regarding Lotpax statement:
This, to me, seems to be on the line of "next they will have us cleaning the cabins". There is no evidence that BA is abusing the tasks they have requested of Cabin Crew. BASSA's constant threat of "this will lead to...." means that increased service and profitability can't even start.
Directives such as the one issued by BASSA re the blind issue only make individuals like myself look more foreward to flying with Mixed Fleet, where service actually becomes a priority.
Interesting post though I feel compelled to state that BASSA is truly giving the word "Union" a poorer image. Many Unions are good organizations that work in partnership with management to provide the best possible structure for their members while maintaining a workplace that can accomodate change and profitability.
BASSA seems to simply be divorced from any thought regarding the well-being of BA, co-workers and their customers.
Regarding Lotpax statement:
If employees allow management to add extra tasks to the day, minutes can sometimes add up into hours over the working week - to impose this on an ad hoc basis without some form of consultation does not seem fair to me - if it is good practice, it should be codified formally
Directives such as the one issued by BASSA re the blind issue only make individuals like myself look more foreward to flying with Mixed Fleet, where service actually becomes a priority.
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This, to me, seems to be on the line of "next they will have us cleaning the cabins"
It seems reasonable to me for a trade union to try and avoid 'scope creep' in a job description.
It is about the need for new, fully flexible open contracts similar to those worked by most of the rest of humanity which say the company has bought "x" amount of your time and that for an agreed remuneration you will come to work, do whatever is reasonably required of you well, expeditiously and cheerfully and at the end of the day go home feeling you've done a good day's work.
If the industrial landscape was settled and peaceful, maybe the employees would happily give the 5 minutes, but it isn't, is it?
Before anyone thinks I am backing BASSA, I am not, but British Airways is not exactly the most attractive choice of air carrier at the moment, is it?
Maybe time they resolved this long running dispute (however they do it) and get back to focusing on making a profit.
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The big difference between shutting down engines during taxi and saving on the APU is that there is no negative affect whatsoever from shutting down an engine, everything still works as advertised.
The APU issue is a health issue and a pax comfort issue. You need to determine where the limits are because as litebulbs says, one court case due to pax collapsing in an overheated cabin will cost lots of bucks.
In addition a hot cabin is uncomfortable and frustrating for pax and also increase the human ability to sweat and so smell. Coming back from Dubai one time the pax next to me said "never again. If this airline wants to scrimp on my comfort in this heat by not putting the air conditioning on, I'll take my business elsewhere".
So despite your calculated savings Juan, the hidden cost may be far more.
Just to put some additional perspective on this.
Now do you really consider that placing the blinds down has any relevant effect against an air conditioning unit capable of cooling 50 homes?
Its bows and arrows against nuclear weapons.
The APU issue is a health issue and a pax comfort issue. You need to determine where the limits are because as litebulbs says, one court case due to pax collapsing in an overheated cabin will cost lots of bucks.
In addition a hot cabin is uncomfortable and frustrating for pax and also increase the human ability to sweat and so smell. Coming back from Dubai one time the pax next to me said "never again. If this airline wants to scrimp on my comfort in this heat by not putting the air conditioning on, I'll take my business elsewhere".
So despite your calculated savings Juan, the hidden cost may be far more.
Just to put some additional perspective on this.
Two cabin air conditioning packs will be installed on each Boeing 787, providing enough air conditioning power to cool more than 50 homes. The packs are part of the aircraft's environmental control system.
Hamilton Sundstrand's cabin air conditioning packs are the first ever to be electrically driven. Typical cabin air conditioning packs use outside or "bleed" air that enters through the engines to produce the required cooling, but new technologies have enabled 787 engineers at Hamilton Sundstrand to pressurize outside air within the cabin air conditioning pack, reducing overall energy usage while contributing to the aircraft's all-electric design.
Hamilton Sundstrand's cabin air conditioning packs are the first ever to be electrically driven. Typical cabin air conditioning packs use outside or "bleed" air that enters through the engines to produce the required cooling, but new technologies have enabled 787 engineers at Hamilton Sundstrand to pressurize outside air within the cabin air conditioning pack, reducing overall energy usage while contributing to the aircraft's all-electric design.
Its bows and arrows against nuclear weapons.
Last edited by Safety Concerns; 3rd Aug 2010 at 15:36.
Lotpax
1) If employees allow management to add extra tasks to the day, minutes can sometimes add up into hours over the working week - to impose this on an ad hoc basis without some form of consultation does not seem fair to me - if it is good practice, it should be codified formally
On the other side of the flight deck door over the years we have regularly seen extra and/or different tasks added to our list of things to do, from minor stuff such as radio/datalink loadsheets, datalink ATC clearances, GPS approaches, Satphones, Enhanced GPWS.....All of these changes have meant at least some "homework" for us and have effected our working day. Now maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't expect my Union to be intimately involved in trialling and agreeing all those changes.
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I agree up to a point but crew have thirty minutes clearance time built into their rosters for post flight duties such as this I don't see why this should be a big issue.
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Well Mr Pony, the point is we don't actually know the real reason why Bassa won't play ball.
It may be stupidity but it may also have a valid reason. The airline I mentioned in a previous post I should add wasn't BA.
But the fact remains if it is then a genuine health issue you can only have one valid procedure, packs on above a certain temp. Blinds won't get the desired result every time, packs will.
It may be stupidity but it may also have a valid reason. The airline I mentioned in a previous post I should add wasn't BA.
But the fact remains if it is then a genuine health issue you can only have one valid procedure, packs on above a certain temp. Blinds won't get the desired result every time, packs will.
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Lotpax: No, and they haven't been asked to.
Safety Concern: You are letting your pro-union stance cloud the logic of this directive. BA has not declared this to be an "cure all and only tool used for cabin temperature". Its to be used in conjunction with other methods.
I've been on flights, and my husband has also, where we were asked to close blinds upon leaving. There is no reason why this request can't be made on a regular basis with a quick walkthrough by Cabin Crew afterwards to close the few that may remain open.
But...that would be an adult approach. Something that seems to be beyond BASSA at the moment.
Safety Concern: You are letting your pro-union stance cloud the logic of this directive. BA has not declared this to be an "cure all and only tool used for cabin temperature". Its to be used in conjunction with other methods.
I've been on flights, and my husband has also, where we were asked to close blinds upon leaving. There is no reason why this request can't be made on a regular basis with a quick walkthrough by Cabin Crew afterwards to close the few that may remain open.
But...that would be an adult approach. Something that seems to be beyond BASSA at the moment.
Last edited by Diplome; 3rd Aug 2010 at 17:18. Reason: sentence structure.
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well diplome I don't know whats behind the Bassa stance. some others here have already mentioned it, you can be flexible to a point.
However if you are not careful that inch becomes a country mile. Its not about Bassa, I have travelled enough times from hot places and suffered because of a stupid company policy about saving money.
My 747 ticket cost 400 quid. Lets say 320 pax. My max cost from the ticket to run the apu is less than 1 pound. The normal average cost will be significantly less. Just run the apu, keep everyone cool and happy.
The airline risks losing more than it gains.
However if you are not careful that inch becomes a country mile. Its not about Bassa, I have travelled enough times from hot places and suffered because of a stupid company policy about saving money.
My 747 ticket cost 400 quid. Lets say 320 pax. My max cost from the ticket to run the apu is less than 1 pound. The normal average cost will be significantly less. Just run the apu, keep everyone cool and happy.
The airline risks losing more than it gains.
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Blinds etc
Wouldn't it be better just to ask ECoHR to opine on the matter when considering reinstatement of the fundamental human right to cheap tickets to Barbados? Aren't the two issues inextricably linked?
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Discussion of blinds, air conditioning etc. is all very interesting, but may be going off at a tangent from the main issue, which is 'Who runs the airline - BASSA or BA?'
Fundamentally, it doesn't really matter why BA want to close the blinds. If they just thought it looked nicer, crew should still do it or face disciplinary action. It's a simple operational instruction, it's virtually no work and the H&S point is a joke.
The only significance of the reason for the instruction is if it moves into the area of passenger safety, in which case dissenting crew might additionally face criminal charges.
Having said all that, part of me would like to see someone try it on, if only to observe the outcome. A dispute on something like this could be a final tipping point for BA (assuming of course that it has not already been reached).
Fundamentally, it doesn't really matter why BA want to close the blinds. If they just thought it looked nicer, crew should still do it or face disciplinary action. It's a simple operational instruction, it's virtually no work and the H&S point is a joke.
The only significance of the reason for the instruction is if it moves into the area of passenger safety, in which case dissenting crew might additionally face criminal charges.
Having said all that, part of me would like to see someone try it on, if only to observe the outcome. A dispute on something like this could be a final tipping point for BA (assuming of course that it has not already been reached).
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SC you are right when you say that there is a hidden cost in not providing a comfortable environment for pax boarding. It is something that I find deeply irritating to get on board an aeroplane and find the cabin temp in the high 30s and nothing being done to rectify the issue. These are not either/or decisions - it can all be done for the benefit of our colleagues and customers and at the same time saving a few bob. Wasting energy is going to become an ever more important issue as this century progresses, doing nothing because we have a machine that can do it while expending lots of energy simply won't cut it any more. There is an equivalence in that line of argument with saying why buy new aircraft these VC10's can still do the job - they just burn lots more fuel.
In the gulf etc then obviously either PCA and or APU is required and there is no question as to this. The real issue, as I keep stating is the temperate zones where it may well be possible to achieve this by simple measures which allow the allow the cabin to STAY cooler on turn rounds. It is not a matter of cooling the cabin, simple physics will show that shutting a blind will not cool anything. These are all preventative measures. Even in warmer climes where it is essential that APU/PCA is used if the starting temp is 37C rather than 39C it means less energy will be used to cool the cabin and this will represent a saving to company - maybe not a lot but certainly worth chasing, it is a no cost saving.
In the gulf etc then obviously either PCA and or APU is required and there is no question as to this. The real issue, as I keep stating is the temperate zones where it may well be possible to achieve this by simple measures which allow the allow the cabin to STAY cooler on turn rounds. It is not a matter of cooling the cabin, simple physics will show that shutting a blind will not cool anything. These are all preventative measures. Even in warmer climes where it is essential that APU/PCA is used if the starting temp is 37C rather than 39C it means less energy will be used to cool the cabin and this will represent a saving to company - maybe not a lot but certainly worth chasing, it is a no cost saving.
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So you don't consider that the quarter of a billion pounds fine for price fixing may have something to do with BA's predicament?
@Juan, its a non issue for the future
These are run on normal electricity, they require no air which means they require no apu or engine.
As I said, blinds against packs capable of cooling 50 homes. Bows and arrows against nukes
@Juan, its a non issue for the future
Two cabin air conditioning packs will be installed on each Boeing 787, providing enough air conditioning power to cool more than 50 homes. The packs are part of the aircraft's environmental control system.
Hamilton Sundstrand's cabin air conditioning packs are the first ever to be electrically driven. Typical cabin air conditioning packs use outside or "bleed" air that enters through the engines to produce the required cooling, but new technologies have enabled 787 engineers at Hamilton Sundstrand to pressurize outside air within the cabin air conditioning pack, reducing overall energy usage while contributing to the aircraft's all-electric design.
Hamilton Sundstrand's cabin air conditioning packs are the first ever to be electrically driven. Typical cabin air conditioning packs use outside or "bleed" air that enters through the engines to produce the required cooling, but new technologies have enabled 787 engineers at Hamilton Sundstrand to pressurize outside air within the cabin air conditioning pack, reducing overall energy usage while contributing to the aircraft's all-electric design.
As I said, blinds against packs capable of cooling 50 homes. Bows and arrows against nukes
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Alternative union advice:
"It has been brought to our attention that crew are being asked to close all the window blinds at the end of each flight. This has not been agreed with BASSA and no safe working practice has been trialled. The normal practice when anything new is introduced is that the Health, Safety and Welfare committee would carry out a risk assessment to confirm that everything is safe.
Please note that no provision has been put in place for this extra duty and therefore you should not be carrying it out. If we do this it will become normal working practice and you will then become obliged to do it and then what next - pick up all the litter?
Please politely refuse if you are asked to do this at the end of your flight"
Alternatively: "It has been brought to our attention that crew are being asked to close all the window blinds at the end of each flight. So far, the Union has not been consulted over this, so we are unsure if this is official company policy. We are seeking clarification from management on this, because we believe that not all crews have sufficient time to undertake this additional task. However, we would advise that until this has been resolved, you may be subject to disciplinary action up to or including dismissal if you fail to carry out such an instruction"
Please note that no provision has been put in place for this extra duty and therefore you should not be carrying it out. If we do this it will become normal working practice and you will then become obliged to do it and then what next - pick up all the litter?
Please politely refuse if you are asked to do this at the end of your flight"
Alternatively: "It has been brought to our attention that crew are being asked to close all the window blinds at the end of each flight. So far, the Union has not been consulted over this, so we are unsure if this is official company policy. We are seeking clarification from management on this, because we believe that not all crews have sufficient time to undertake this additional task. However, we would advise that until this has been resolved, you may be subject to disciplinary action up to or including dismissal if you fail to carry out such an instruction"
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I agree with JT and perhaps it should be noted that BA are actually following at least one other airline in getting CC to carry out this task (see other thread).
Incidentally I have never quite understood why the cabin lights have to be dimmed when landing at night.
Incidentally I have never quite understood why the cabin lights have to be dimmed when landing at night.
Last edited by Dawdler; 3rd Aug 2010 at 16:08. Reason: spelling
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Incidentally I have never quite understood why the cabin lights have to be dimmed when landing at night.
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The science behind the effectiveness of lowering the blinds is irrelevant and a complete misnomer.
When the company issues a perfectly reasonable and lawful instruction to its staff it is not for BASSA to take it upon itself to tell cabin crew to just disregard the company's instructions, citing spurious health and safety grounds.
When the company issues a perfectly reasonable and lawful instruction to its staff it is not for BASSA to take it upon itself to tell cabin crew to just disregard the company's instructions, citing spurious health and safety grounds.
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Safety Concerns
Just run the apu, keep everyone cool and happy
As for closing blinds we have been doing it for years where necessary, and as somebody suggested asking pax to do it before leaving the a/c.
What a load of hot air over nothing !!!!
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Most airports...where? Never been a rule at any airport I worked at.
But anyway I agree this has drifted off, lets bring this back.
So the company on Monday ask for CC to perform a simple "extra" task. How do we know that by Friday CC won't be clearing up, performing boarding checks at the gate and and and.
Where does one draw the line or do we allow t&c's to go backwards by stealth?
In fact all your office staff, why can't you clean up the office before you go and I don't need to employ a cleaner. Where does it end? Where does it start?
But anyway I agree this has drifted off, lets bring this back.
So the company on Monday ask for CC to perform a simple "extra" task. How do we know that by Friday CC won't be clearing up, performing boarding checks at the gate and and and.
Where does one draw the line or do we allow t&c's to go backwards by stealth?
In fact all your office staff, why can't you clean up the office before you go and I don't need to employ a cleaner. Where does it end? Where does it start?