BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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I've personally had a few pleasant evenings here with a glass of wine and lively conversation
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As it stands in the UK, unions are vital. Employment law is just not, or is it not just? We are only a 100 years on from the Master and Servants act.
But why give the current Government reason to legislate? The 60's and 70's were like a kid with a new toy, but then Mrs T (mum) stepped in and sent us to bed. We just have not grown up and we are not as cute as Peter Pan, but we do seem to live in a fictional world at times.
But why give the current Government reason to legislate? The 60's and 70's were like a kid with a new toy, but then Mrs T (mum) stepped in and sent us to bed. We just have not grown up and we are not as cute as Peter Pan, but we do seem to live in a fictional world at times.
Perhaps they should have exchanges with German and American unions, who seem to work much better with employers at times of difficulty.
Instead of going to visit the Thai motor industry unions and stopping off in whore bars for bit of fun.
BASSA, and by implication UNITE, have dragged the Union movement back to the 1970's, because you have socialist dinosaurs leading the latter and immature cretins leading the former.
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Perhaps they should have exchanges with German and American unions, who seem to work much better with employers at times of difficulty.
Germans strike too you know. What was it last time, train drivers I believe.
The root cause goes far deeper. Unions are democratic, leaders are elected. If you vote for someone then one should assume you support their policies. If however you are not interested and the union is only there for when you need them (me,me,me) then you get what you deserve should a radical bunch take over.
It is like anything including marriage; it takes 2 to tango or make something work. If members interact with their union this shouldn't happen.
But we also need to accept that BA isn't the first dispute of this type. Most of the others however found a compromise. Could it possibly be in this case that the rhetoric has gone on for too long and each leader is now unable to compromise?
If and I say if that is the case, then changes need to be made at the top as far as the negotiations are concerned.
@litebulbs works council nice idea but works councils will always have limitations until they become a union. There will always be a need at some point for complete independent intervention on an issue. It may work though if management would also move a little further away from the master/slave attitude.
Even then you need the mother organisation to campaign and lobby on the bigger issues. Imagine no BALPA and then having to bring all works councils together to fight for less working hours for pilots for example, very unlikely.
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You are not biting, just discussing
Workers Uniting - the world's first global union
You probably will find that a cream tea is not that high up the list of most union members, but if you are in a position of power and will have the pap's following you around, then just go and sit where the right wing business men are eating. Oh, probably in the same bar, but at seat's out back?
And by BA's punitive actions, industrial relations have gone back to the mill house.
I suppose I have just bitten here!
Perhaps they should have exchanges with German and American unions, who seem to work much better with employers at times of difficulty.
Instead of going to visit the Thai motor industry unions and stopping off in whore bars for bit of fun.
BASSA, and by implication UNITE, have dragged the Union movement back to the 1970's, because you have socialist dinosaurs leading the latter and immature cretins leading the former.
I suppose I have just bitten here!
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Unions face a problem these days, in that their raison d'etre is no longer self evident. In the early days of union power, it was plain what the union role was - fighting to protect the welfare of their members; ensuring that their members worked in a safe working environment and should they suffer a work related injury they were protected. This evolved over the years as the major battles were won and the union took on the role of fighting for a better standard of living.
Something went wrong with British Trade Unionism in the postwar era, they started to try to dictate to management who could work on what job and what equipment could be bought by management and how it would be operated. By the seventies we had the ridiculous situation where a union was dictating to the government. They had made British manufacturing uneconomic and uncompetitive, believing that somehow the competition from abroad could be ignored and that it was irrelevant.
The union reform acts of the 1980's were inevitable to curb this nonsense. The period of structural change within the UK employment market was unavoidable.
So, after a period of unparalleled growth, economic stability and relatively low unemployment during the 1990s and 2000's the youngsters who grew up in the era of union power, see an opportunity to grasp the reins of power again. UNITE fund the Labour Party heavily and use that financial muscle to attempt to bend policy to their will. We are seeing the re-emergence of the left wing union militants - Len McLusky et al.
Arthur Scargill was a passionate and effective union man when he was looking after the welfare of the miners, dealing with industrial injuries and their aftermath. He excelled in fighting for measures to ease the suffering of miners affected by illness due to the hazardous nature of mining. He was also the man who effectively destroyed the mining industry through his political naivety. He was good at doing what unions should be doing, he was a disaster in the political arena and effectively destroyed the NUM and union power for 25 years.
Given the background of all of this UNITE are now once again allowing themselves to pick the wrong fight. CC do not need their "welfare" protecting, they are not in a job that is potentially life threatening in the same way that ship yard workers did in the 1930's. Fighting to protect priviliged cheap travel perks of of a few relatively well paid employees is the wrong fight for a union and as such will never garner public support.
Something went wrong with British Trade Unionism in the postwar era, they started to try to dictate to management who could work on what job and what equipment could be bought by management and how it would be operated. By the seventies we had the ridiculous situation where a union was dictating to the government. They had made British manufacturing uneconomic and uncompetitive, believing that somehow the competition from abroad could be ignored and that it was irrelevant.
The union reform acts of the 1980's were inevitable to curb this nonsense. The period of structural change within the UK employment market was unavoidable.
So, after a period of unparalleled growth, economic stability and relatively low unemployment during the 1990s and 2000's the youngsters who grew up in the era of union power, see an opportunity to grasp the reins of power again. UNITE fund the Labour Party heavily and use that financial muscle to attempt to bend policy to their will. We are seeing the re-emergence of the left wing union militants - Len McLusky et al.
Arthur Scargill was a passionate and effective union man when he was looking after the welfare of the miners, dealing with industrial injuries and their aftermath. He excelled in fighting for measures to ease the suffering of miners affected by illness due to the hazardous nature of mining. He was also the man who effectively destroyed the mining industry through his political naivety. He was good at doing what unions should be doing, he was a disaster in the political arena and effectively destroyed the NUM and union power for 25 years.
Given the background of all of this UNITE are now once again allowing themselves to pick the wrong fight. CC do not need their "welfare" protecting, they are not in a job that is potentially life threatening in the same way that ship yard workers did in the 1930's. Fighting to protect priviliged cheap travel perks of of a few relatively well paid employees is the wrong fight for a union and as such will never garner public support.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 1st Aug 2010 at 08:54.
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Sactety Concerns
You know as well as I know that he strike wasn't and isn't about ST
As to my bias, that has been clearly displayed through many posts - as has your own.
All the best
JT
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And by BA's punitive actions, industrial relations have gone back to the mill house.
Its about on the same absurdity level as BASSA claiming they are equivalent to the fight for Iwo Jima.
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Bias is an interesting word and is defined as:
So by introducing this word you accuse me of prejudice, prejudice is defined as:
My opinion, has not been formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason. It is based on all the above plus personal experience.
Your bias is that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and stupid.
a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.
an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
Your bias is that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and stupid.
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oh Juan really.
My posts have had one theme and one theme only. In my opinion Bassa are wrong but equally BA are wrong by removing ST.
I personally believe that BA would have won this and finished this earlier by not removing ST. But then again just look at the response to the ST comments and the trouser wetting by anti Bassa posters over it.
some posters here have admitted that removing ST is wrong by PM
Therefore if we have a difference in public and private opinions, one can only conclude that the ST issue has suffered from prejudice. Otherwise the opinions would be the same.
The old chestnut when someone doesn't agree with your own opinion.
Even an excellent post about unionism today you couldn't resist allowing your bias to creep in. Is it any wonder that pro Bassa supporters are reluctant to post.
My posts have had one theme and one theme only. In my opinion Bassa are wrong but equally BA are wrong by removing ST.
I personally believe that BA would have won this and finished this earlier by not removing ST. But then again just look at the response to the ST comments and the trouser wetting by anti Bassa posters over it.
some posters here have admitted that removing ST is wrong by PM
Therefore if we have a difference in public and private opinions, one can only conclude that the ST issue has suffered from prejudice. Otherwise the opinions would be the same.
Your bias is that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and stupid.
Even an excellent post about unionism today you couldn't resist allowing your bias to creep in. Is it any wonder that pro Bassa supporters are reluctant to post.
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Why would BA allow strikers take seats on aircraft in order to join their friends on the picket line and drink pimms at Bedfont. They were warned they would lose ST and they sang that they didn't care....or rather more emotive words to that effect, so cause and effect. 
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Willie Walsh is adamant that staff travel is not the reason why no settlement has been reached. He thinks it is a side issue and the problem is BASSA not being willing to agree to permanent structural change.
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Update from Dorkan
Hi there everyone.
It's been a few days I know - we've been too busy updating our membership database to cast our eyes up into the forumosphere. Before we could start that huge task there was the little matter of cleaning all the jam and spilled tea off the thing not to mention the bread crumbs and butter welded to its dog-eared pages. The database has served as our toaster stand at home for several months. Anyway after I was reminded that the database also existed in virtual form on our computer I stopped all that but then remembered that I had inadvertently wiped the computer's hard disk clean last week after a few sherbets. My waistline continues to expand! Never mind though as it had been stored on a floppy that I thoughtfully sellotaped to the fridge door at union HQ and a quick phone call later it was winging its way to me via messenger. Having reloaded the information I was gratified to note that as of the last update 99% of memberships at that time were valid. Since then nothing much has changed although there is a huge pile of inbox-related membership retraction administrative input work outstanding. If we ever find the time following BA's unfair decimation and plundering of our Union infrastructure. Wee Willie and his bunch of diddy henchmen will not win this war and if they do then we will make sure that all the people sitting on this side of the fence have a forlorn hope of Xmas strikes because that is far enough away to be truly meaningless. Remember we have fought for you all and never let the facts divert us from the one true path of Bassa righteousness. In that you can trust. Don't believe those saying that it can't be right that only 3500 have lost Staff Travel whilst over 7000 have applied for strike pay. BA will say and do anything to distort the figures and it is not for them to reason why or how or who did and didn't strike. It is up to us to tell them and everyone else what we think is right. I think you'll agree. We'll be back to you as soon as Lizanne has returned from her holidays. Off to feed the tomatoes now.
Dorkan
It's been a few days I know - we've been too busy updating our membership database to cast our eyes up into the forumosphere. Before we could start that huge task there was the little matter of cleaning all the jam and spilled tea off the thing not to mention the bread crumbs and butter welded to its dog-eared pages. The database has served as our toaster stand at home for several months. Anyway after I was reminded that the database also existed in virtual form on our computer I stopped all that but then remembered that I had inadvertently wiped the computer's hard disk clean last week after a few sherbets. My waistline continues to expand! Never mind though as it had been stored on a floppy that I thoughtfully sellotaped to the fridge door at union HQ and a quick phone call later it was winging its way to me via messenger. Having reloaded the information I was gratified to note that as of the last update 99% of memberships at that time were valid. Since then nothing much has changed although there is a huge pile of inbox-related membership retraction administrative input work outstanding. If we ever find the time following BA's unfair decimation and plundering of our Union infrastructure. Wee Willie and his bunch of diddy henchmen will not win this war and if they do then we will make sure that all the people sitting on this side of the fence have a forlorn hope of Xmas strikes because that is far enough away to be truly meaningless. Remember we have fought for you all and never let the facts divert us from the one true path of Bassa righteousness. In that you can trust. Don't believe those saying that it can't be right that only 3500 have lost Staff Travel whilst over 7000 have applied for strike pay. BA will say and do anything to distort the figures and it is not for them to reason why or how or who did and didn't strike. It is up to us to tell them and everyone else what we think is right. I think you'll agree. We'll be back to you as soon as Lizanne has returned from her holidays. Off to feed the tomatoes now.
Dorkan
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buttons44:
I believe that was sarcasm, not a true post from Mr. Holley.
Safety Concern:
Many individuals here that have no objection to, or actually support, the removal of Staff Travel from some members of Cabin Crew are no more biased than yourself.
Until such time as a legal authority says otherwise I expect the situation to stay much as it is at the moment.
You can personally believe that Staff Travel would have brought this issue to a close. I disagree, and the statements of Mr. Holley and others support my opinion.
Note that the return of staff travel was demanded as a "goodwill gesture" towards continuing negotiations. Agreement has been described as "close", but BASSA and Unite have both said they have issues remaining.
Strikes are serious business. I'm rather surprised that the militant members of Cabin Crew thought this was going to be some sort of painless procedure. Naive in the extreme.
I believe that was sarcasm, not a true post from Mr. Holley.
Safety Concern:
Many individuals here that have no objection to, or actually support, the removal of Staff Travel from some members of Cabin Crew are no more biased than yourself.
Until such time as a legal authority says otherwise I expect the situation to stay much as it is at the moment.
You can personally believe that Staff Travel would have brought this issue to a close. I disagree, and the statements of Mr. Holley and others support my opinion.
Note that the return of staff travel was demanded as a "goodwill gesture" towards continuing negotiations. Agreement has been described as "close", but BASSA and Unite have both said they have issues remaining.
Strikes are serious business. I'm rather surprised that the militant members of Cabin Crew thought this was going to be some sort of painless procedure. Naive in the extreme.