BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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call100:
The point you miss is that the CC only get to vote on what the union puts before them. So, on Friday when BA presented their offer the Union did not allow their members to vote on this offer. Instead they said they could not recommend it to their members - and then announced strike dates. Since BA had only made the offer on the understanding that dates would not be announced, Unite must have known that announcing dates for a strike would cost BA a significant sum and that the offer would therefore be withdrawn.
Given that it seems around 50% of CC reported for work today it would seem likely that the majority of Unite members would have voted for the BA offer - if only they'd been allowed.
The point you miss is that the CC only get to vote on what the union puts before them. So, on Friday when BA presented their offer the Union did not allow their members to vote on this offer. Instead they said they could not recommend it to their members - and then announced strike dates. Since BA had only made the offer on the understanding that dates would not be announced, Unite must have known that announcing dates for a strike would cost BA a significant sum and that the offer would therefore be withdrawn.
Given that it seems around 50% of CC reported for work today it would seem likely that the majority of Unite members would have voted for the BA offer - if only they'd been allowed.
I wouldn't believe any of the figures coming out of the strike regarding how many turned up or didn't. Rarely will Joe Public get the truth...
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They would have voted to accept the offer agreed with the negotiating team, except that Walsh pulled it from under everyone's feet without any notice, (including to his own negotiating team)...He didn't want a settlement. There are more than a few in his management team who think it's time he went.
A: Because BASSA didn't want their members to settle. That would mean them having to accept doing a bit of work. And McLuskey wants to make his name coming up to the UNITE leadership contest.
Woodley agreed with Walsh the 23 day extension to consider the offer, in return for not calling a strike. McLuskey announced the strikes. Walsh rightly withdrew the offer based on that absurd decision. McLuskey knew exactly what he was doing and understood the consequences.
Had UNITE asked their members to vote on the offer, and it had been accepted, there was your very simple solution to this dispute.
UNITE and BASSA do not want to settle. They want everything to stay as it was and sod the rest of BA.
They are reaping what they have sown as far as I am concerned.
And for Woodley to complain about the subsequent offer being worse, what does the idiot expect when UNITE and BASSA have just cost the seriously loss-making British Airways another 27 million pounds?
This union need to learn that it doesn't run BA, and Walsh is just the man to teach them.
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Unite said a number of planes had been stacked up at airports, including 85 parked planes at Heathrow, 20 at Cardiff and 20 in Shannon.
Clearly this is NOT the truth
Another rep is claiming that there is massive disruption of BA Flights at LHR
He was standing close to the perimeter so only opening his eyes and looking up would prove him to be very economical with the truth
Allegedly BASSA reps called in sick rather than strike
UNITE did not allow the members to ballot on the final offer from BA
Why on earth would any professional body want to align themselves with BASSA or UNITE? Just based on the above its obvious that WW has more respect for CC than those union reps that represent the CC.
It seems its time to put your uniform on, wear it with pride, go back to work and denounce those that have put you in this position.
Yes there was a ballot and overwhelmingly the result was a yes to IA.......BUT a very reasonable offer was made by WW and the union did not even let the membership vote on it......... because they knew it would probably be accepted. Just that one reason alone is enough to question whether your union is representing you or not.
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In my opinion (whether right or wrong), if my company imposed a relative pay cut onto me after years of massive profits I would be upset. I would certainly consider strike action, if not I would operate to the absolute basics of my contract and ensure customers knew of my unhappiness. This, may, probably would stop people from re-booking, hence a loss of revenue.
BUT, if the company explained and proved the story, then said in a year or two, when its proven that the company is in profit (Plcīs have to issue statements), that they would then give me a guarenteed increase in pay commensurate with the increase in profits, then I would certainly look at working for and with the company to meet this target. Hence happy staff = happy customers and = re-bookings. Everyone is happy.
Impose cuts = even more problems, Talk, be open = helpful staff.
PS: References to the scum government who "broke" the miners strike is detestable. That low life, paid people to send in coal at greater cost just to close the mines. This was not just about Scargill, this was a Conservative government shutting down the North of England at ANY cost. They even took out steel. They broke my family up as some went to work others didnīt, itīs called divide and conquer! Any decent dictator knows how to do it!
I worked for a company and was involved in a 3 week strike. We came out worse off, I left. This same company is regularly involved in strike ballots and action 4 years later, suprisingly due to bullying and intimidation of the work force. Shame they have to ensure shareholders HAVE to have a 10% increase in dividend payments year on year, as promised by the top board.
Shame too that they forget that the people they intimidate also fetch in the revenue.
Another ballot is due soon, the 7th one. Some people never learn.
BUT, if the company explained and proved the story, then said in a year or two, when its proven that the company is in profit (Plcīs have to issue statements), that they would then give me a guarenteed increase in pay commensurate with the increase in profits, then I would certainly look at working for and with the company to meet this target. Hence happy staff = happy customers and = re-bookings. Everyone is happy.
Impose cuts = even more problems, Talk, be open = helpful staff.
PS: References to the scum government who "broke" the miners strike is detestable. That low life, paid people to send in coal at greater cost just to close the mines. This was not just about Scargill, this was a Conservative government shutting down the North of England at ANY cost. They even took out steel. They broke my family up as some went to work others didnīt, itīs called divide and conquer! Any decent dictator knows how to do it!
I worked for a company and was involved in a 3 week strike. We came out worse off, I left. This same company is regularly involved in strike ballots and action 4 years later, suprisingly due to bullying and intimidation of the work force. Shame they have to ensure shareholders HAVE to have a 10% increase in dividend payments year on year, as promised by the top board.
Shame too that they forget that the people they intimidate also fetch in the revenue.
Another ballot is due soon, the 7th one. Some people never learn.
Last edited by Cymmon; 21st Mar 2010 at 15:56.
Indeed. It was about who ran the country. The government or the unions. Make no mistake, Scargill had bigger ambitions than just miners jobs - he wanted to bring a democratically elected government down, and the miners were his cannon fodder. Question - where is Arthur Scargill now? Answer - living in a good deal of comfort, while many of the people he was supposed to be representing lost everything. Do you see the parallel with the BA Cabin Crew and BASSA?
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My contract expects of me what is stated. I would do that, simple. I believe that this is the professionalism expected of me. The customers would know of my unhappiness purely due to the fact I did the job I was paid for. I would not use initiative (possibly a disciplinary for that), and would not try to help more than was expected.
If i believed I could improve myself I would give more.
If i believed I could improve myself I would give more.
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Tragic is the adjective I think most appropriate
I haven't read all the posts but a few seemed a bit facetious - as retired cabin crew member who joined in 1971 I used to look back with great fondness to the old Anchorage slips, the room parties but mostly to the camaraderie which existed in my day. Call me a dinosaur but I can't see present serving members being able to feel the same way. Hard to say if the strike could have been averted but surely everyone was aware of the perilous state of the company's finances - if the dire situation could have been made clear in maybe a less bombastic & belligerent way by certain managers & reasonable ways of saving costs suggested rather than draconian imposition maybe things wouldn't have got to this stage. Just saw the News a while ago & for some Unite rep to say that the strike is going well is moronic in the extreme - how can so many people's travel plans + the massive losses incurred by refunding or rebooking pax possibly be regarded as 'going well'? Finally, I hope all crew have opted out of donating money to Unite by choosing a charity instead otherwise their subscriptions will go straight back to Labour (are there really 200 MP's who are Unite members???)
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If you think they would have voted to accept the offer, then why did UNITE call strikes?
A: Because BASSA didn't want their members to settle. That would mean them having to accept doing a bit of work. And McLuskey wants to make his name coming up to the UNITE leadership contest.
Woodley agreed with Walsh the 23 day extension to consider the offer, in return for not calling a strike. McLuskey announced the strikes. Walsh rightly withdrew the offer based on that absurd decision. McLuskey knew exactly what he was doing and understood the consequences.
Had UNITE asked their members to vote on the offer, and it had been accepted, there was your very simple solution to this dispute.
UNITE and BASSA do not want to settle. They want everything to stay as it was and sod the rest of BA.
They are reaping what they have sown as far as I am concerned.
And for Woodley to complain about the subsequent offer being worse, what does the idiot expect when UNITE and BASSA have just cost the seriously loss-making British Airways another 27 million pounds?
This union need to learn that it doesn't run BA, and Walsh is just the man to teach them.
A: Because BASSA didn't want their members to settle. That would mean them having to accept doing a bit of work. And McLuskey wants to make his name coming up to the UNITE leadership contest.
Woodley agreed with Walsh the 23 day extension to consider the offer, in return for not calling a strike. McLuskey announced the strikes. Walsh rightly withdrew the offer based on that absurd decision. McLuskey knew exactly what he was doing and understood the consequences.
Had UNITE asked their members to vote on the offer, and it had been accepted, there was your very simple solution to this dispute.
UNITE and BASSA do not want to settle. They want everything to stay as it was and sod the rest of BA.
They are reaping what they have sown as far as I am concerned.
And for Woodley to complain about the subsequent offer being worse, what does the idiot expect when UNITE and BASSA have just cost the seriously loss-making British Airways another 27 million pounds?
This union need to learn that it doesn't run BA, and Walsh is just the man to teach them.
The rest of the post is not at all accurate, but, it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
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They couldn't vote on an offer that wasn't there. Simple...If the offer was there then the staff would have been asked to vote on it.
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They couldn't vote on an offer that wasn't there. Simple...If the offer was there then the staff would have been asked to vote on it.
The rest of the post is not at all accurate, but, it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
In my opinion (whether right or wrong), if my company imposed a relative pay cut onto me after years of massive profits I would be upset. I would certainly consider strike action, if not I would operate to the absolute basics of my contract and ensure customers knew of my unhappiness. This, may, probably would stop people from re-booking, hence a loss of revenue.
BA ask to remove one crew member to make a specific saving. They did not ask for any pay cuts, or loss of allowances. The only sacrifice required from cabin crew was to cover that member of staff, asking the CSD to work the service - as they've been doing at Gatwick for years, which is why LGW are almost universally ignoring the strike call.
I agree that CC should negotiate some kind of reward for when the profits return, but with BASSA and UNITE negotiating, this was never going to happen.
In fact, the word is that Share Options were on the table (as they were for the pilots), but BASSA and UNITE cocked that up by refusing to negotiate from the time their initial "offer" was shown to be worth so little, to the June deadline on to the November imposition and, arguably, ever since.
I fully support Unions and they have an important role to play, but they have to be run for the membership, and not for the political ends of the union leadership or the sheer bloody minded selfishness of the BASSA reps.
This Union are a shower of
and have so badly let down its membership.If the membership weren't going to get rid of them, then Walsh had to. Hopefully, when the members see what was offered and what these weasels turned down, they will turn on them and kick them out of office.
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They couldn't vote on an offer that wasn't there. Simple...If the offer was there then the staff would have been asked to vote on it.
They couldn't vote on an offer that wasn't there. Simple...If the offer was there then the staff would have been asked to vote on it.
The offer was tabled by WW before the strike dates were officially announced. WW stipulated, if strike dates are announced, the offer is withdrawn. The reason the members were not allowed to vote on it is down to the actions of UNITE........ not WW
BA - we'll talk more if you don't strike, otherwise the offer's withdrawn.
UNITE - we'll strike.
UNITE - oooh, you withdrew the offer
.UNITE - we'll strike.
UNITE - oooh, you withdrew the offer
How difficult is that to comprehend?
Clearly, TOO difficult for some people in Unite.
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The offer was tabled by WW before the strike dates were officially announced. WW stipulated, if strike dates are announced, the offer is withdrawn. The reason the members were not allowed to vote on it is down to the actions of UNITE........ not WW
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As has been said earlier on PPRuNe, this will be a Test Case for future students of IR. How on earth is one supposed to negotiate with people who simply ignore facts and clear-cut statements?
I'm not in any way denying the right of Unions and Management to disagree, and to try to negotiate a way out of an impasse. But the utter stupidity [followed by blatant lies] from Unite really makes me wonder about the sanity of some of those involved.
[OK, I know there are Union politics and power-positioning at play as well. But the way it has been [mis-]handled would seem to offer little credibility for those engaged in the "Great Game" on the Union side.]
I'm not in any way denying the right of Unions and Management to disagree, and to try to negotiate a way out of an impasse. But the utter stupidity [followed by blatant lies] from Unite really makes me wonder about the sanity of some of those involved.
[OK, I know there are Union politics and power-positioning at play as well. But the way it has been [mis-]handled would seem to offer little credibility for those engaged in the "Great Game" on the Union side.]
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PS: References to the scum government who "broke" the miners strike is detestable. That low life, paid people to send in coal at greater cost just to close the mines. This was not just about Scargill, this was a Conservative government shutting down the North of England at ANY cost. They even took out steel. They broke my family up as some went to work others didnīt, itīs called divide and conquer! Any decent dictator knows how to do it!
Can someone let me know why gatwick crew are striking? I thought it was all about heathrow T&C being brought into line with the gatwick staff?
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The problem on here seems to be the source of any information gained......So basically it is going to turn into the usual arguments based purely on ones view of the Politics. Doubt anyone actually contributing on here (including me) is in full possession of the facts. I know who I prefer to believe and I'm sure everyone else has their own 'side of the fence', so I guess everyone will have to wait and see how it pans out.
One thing is certain. The rantings on here will have absolutely no effect, either way, on the outcome.....
One thing is certain. The rantings on here will have absolutely no effect, either way, on the outcome.....
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To all who are referencing the miner's strike - It was not about T&Cs, shutting mined out pits or anything other than the Plan For Coal being ripped up by Thatcher's government, this had been agreed with the NUM as part of ongoing reviews but she wanted to bring about confrontation as Heath had been dragged down by the miners, he famously pitched the question "who governs this country?" and was informed via the ballot box that it wasn't him. She never forgot that and acted accordingly.
The Nissan plant came about not because of Thatcher's lobbying but because the area qualified for EU subsidies due to its depressed nature, brought about in no small part by the actions of HMG.
I agree that the union has not played its best in this dispute but can see their point, comparisons with LGW CC are not relevant, they were hired on different contracts. The CC affected are looking at not just extra work due to reduction of compliment but also a pay freeze ie drop due to inflation. It is every worker's right to withdraw their labour in this position.
The Nissan plant came about not because of Thatcher's lobbying but because the area qualified for EU subsidies due to its depressed nature, brought about in no small part by the actions of HMG.
I agree that the union has not played its best in this dispute but can see their point, comparisons with LGW CC are not relevant, they were hired on different contracts. The CC affected are looking at not just extra work due to reduction of compliment but also a pay freeze ie drop due to inflation. It is every worker's right to withdraw their labour in this position.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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were hired on different contracts.
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But those that have been there longer than 3 or 4 years saw a contract change (downwards) negotiated by BASSA and others
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The destructive Unite leadership
Unite are the belligerent party here.
It takes a considerable amount of talent, initiative, hard work and effort to manage an airline and to steer it through the complex global regulations and turbulent waters of the aviation industry and fluctuating economic conditions. It takes years of hard work by all those who have toiled so hard and diligently to make a company successful and provide employment for thousands of people and a service for millions of others.
Whilst it only takes a matter of days for the few mindless fools from the Unite leadership to call a strike and tear it all down.
It takes a considerable amount of talent, initiative, hard work and effort to manage an airline and to steer it through the complex global regulations and turbulent waters of the aviation industry and fluctuating economic conditions. It takes years of hard work by all those who have toiled so hard and diligently to make a company successful and provide employment for thousands of people and a service for millions of others.
Whilst it only takes a matter of days for the few mindless fools from the Unite leadership to call a strike and tear it all down.