BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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MissM
No, we can't. With all due respect I am a management consultant specialising in organizational development and change management for 20 years, before that a line manager in industry and with several qualifications in the field of psychology and social science. This type of stuff is my day job.
You patently do not understand what you are talking about and are literally spouting irrational nonsense, apparently driven by emotion.
Have you considered that the pilots may be a more valuable resource to the company and therefore have more leverage with senior management?
jethrobee
I don't think he has backed himself into a corner, he has implemented a policy using his legitimate authority as CEO and that policy is not up for negotiation.
BASSA have backed themselves into a corner and are now in deep trouble.
No, we can't. With all due respect I am a management consultant specialising in organizational development and change management for 20 years, before that a line manager in industry and with several qualifications in the field of psychology and social science. This type of stuff is my day job.
You patently do not understand what you are talking about and are literally spouting irrational nonsense, apparently driven by emotion.
Have you considered that the pilots may be a more valuable resource to the company and therefore have more leverage with senior management?
jethrobee
I don't think he has backed himself into a corner, he has implemented a policy using his legitimate authority as CEO and that policy is not up for negotiation.
BASSA have backed themselves into a corner and are now in deep trouble.
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ExecClub Pax
What MissM is displaying is a classic external locus of control, i.e. it is always someone elses's fault and it was not my choice that caused the outcome.
Therefore BA is 'punishing us for acting like naughty children', not 'we were given a choice and I chose to stand up for what I believe in.'
What MissM is displaying is a classic external locus of control, i.e. it is always someone elses's fault and it was not my choice that caused the outcome.
Therefore BA is 'punishing us for acting like naughty children', not 'we were given a choice and I chose to stand up for what I believe in.'
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Solipsism personified
Solipsism = view that the self is the only knowable, or the only existent thing.
A bit like BASSA feeling it is the only entity capable of managing BA's cabin crew operations and therefore entitled to put every other BA worker's livelihood at risk by inflicting huge financial damage on the company and disrupting countless thousand's of customers' travel plans.
Solipsism = view that the self is the only knowable, or the only existent thing.
A bit like BASSA feeling it is the only entity capable of managing BA's cabin crew operations and therefore entitled to put every other BA worker's livelihood at risk by inflicting huge financial damage on the company and disrupting countless thousand's of customers' travel plans.
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PAXboy
Not even the union is against changes but it should be done through negotiation and not imposition. We have offered BA generous offers and our last proposal was only £10 million from what they are asking for. They refused it and to be honest I don't even believe WW has ever been looking for a settlement because he has had his mind set for a strike.
Final 3 Greens
Fine.
button44
An inflated idea of their importance in the scheme of things?
ExecClubPax
Everybody knew what would happen if they went on strike. Nobody would argue this. They announced before the strike that staff travel would be removed permanently and they were hoping that it would change the mind of some because staff travel is prescious to many. Surprisingly many of the striking crew were commuters.
It's interesting to see that many don't think of this as a punishment because that's exactly what it is.
Not even the union is against changes but it should be done through negotiation and not imposition. We have offered BA generous offers and our last proposal was only £10 million from what they are asking for. They refused it and to be honest I don't even believe WW has ever been looking for a settlement because he has had his mind set for a strike.
Final 3 Greens
You patently do not understand what you are talking about and are literally spouting irrational nonsense, apparently driven by emotion.
button44
An inflated idea of their importance in the scheme of things?
ExecClubPax
Everybody knew what would happen if they went on strike. Nobody would argue this. They announced before the strike that staff travel would be removed permanently and they were hoping that it would change the mind of some because staff travel is prescious to many. Surprisingly many of the striking crew were commuters.
It's interesting to see that many don't think of this as a punishment because that's exactly what it is.
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Your post actually made me chuckle, not because of it's content, I could just imagine the scene as you were typing it with indignation....Not meant as an insult and probably says more about me than yourself..
We have offered BA generous offers and our last proposal was only £10 million from what they are asking for. They refused it and to be honest I don't even believe WW has ever been looking for a settlement because he has had his mind set for a strike.
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Since the above seems to be the prevailing opinion of the non-BA cabin crew posting here I don't think they can all be called "soliphists".
And Miss M, the pilots threatened to, but did not, strike. Therefore any comparison as to ST is inapplicable.
And Miss M, the pilots threatened to, but did not, strike. Therefore any comparison as to ST is inapplicable.
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They refused it and to be honest I don't even believe WW has ever been looking for a settlement because he has had his mind set for a strike.
BA ask for reasonable changes and BASSA at first tried to squirm out of it with a ludicrously over-valued "offer" and then stuck two fingers up when it was exposed as such. WW has stated all along that the changes are needed to keep the airline flying, and all these BASSA "reps" have done is stamp their feet and have a tantrum. And now, when they finally go on strike, they are moaning about losing a benefit they don't even deserve as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think Walsh or any of the BA board wanted a strike. I think they expected it from the juvenile freeloaders that run BASSA, and properly (and expertly) prepared for it.
If BASSA have half a brain cell between them they'd accept what ever offer they can get before Walsh takes advantage of the fact that they have been completely emasculated, and does what you keep saying he'll do, and "come back for more". I wouldn't blame him if he did, it's about time cabin crew realised where they sit in the BA food chain.
BASSA picked this fight, so don't come running asking for sympathy because they got a pasting for their trouble.
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Your post actually made me chuckle, not because of it's content, I could just imagine the scene as you were typing it with indignation
Just thought it was time for reality check.
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Management has taken a very harsh stand on cabin crew.
BASSA and Cabin Crew have received repeated offers from BA. Absolutely none has been delivered to the membership for a vote.
BA has given clear notice of each and every action they have taken and have followed through.
For BASSA and Cabin Crew to insist that, as part of any settlement, disciplinary procedures be cleared is unusual and unsafe in the extreme. The rules and procedures are in place for a reason..the health and safety of both BA employees and their passengers.
IA is not something that should be entered into lightly, it is not a game, it is serious business with potential for gain or loss by both sides. BASSA and its more militant members act as if they should be able to say "Oh never mind, let's pretend it didn't happen" because they are on the losing side of this episode. It doesn't work that way.
Why so many striking cabin crew have such a hard time understanding there are consequences to their actions simply has me stunned.
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Having read this thread with interest after a few days away MissM can I suggest that despite several contrary opinions you still insist the remove of ST is a punishment not a consequence.
Your unwillingness to accept a contrary view is symptomatic of the position of your union i.e. we are right every body else is wrong.
Whilst I am not knowlegdeable enough on the finer points of the negotiations I would suggest there are those on the management side who think the same way.
I have said it before and, at the risk of repeating myself, what needs to happen is both sides to open their eyes to the reality of the situation, if you dont sort it out and sort it out soon there may well be no airline and no jobs to argue over.
The rest of us have had to compromise to keep our jobs, maybe it's time you thought the same way. But who am I other than a simple freight dog and a regular flyer who has voted with his feet and flying on other carriers now.
Your unwillingness to accept a contrary view is symptomatic of the position of your union i.e. we are right every body else is wrong.
Whilst I am not knowlegdeable enough on the finer points of the negotiations I would suggest there are those on the management side who think the same way.
I have said it before and, at the risk of repeating myself, what needs to happen is both sides to open their eyes to the reality of the situation, if you dont sort it out and sort it out soon there may well be no airline and no jobs to argue over.
The rest of us have had to compromise to keep our jobs, maybe it's time you thought the same way. But who am I other than a simple freight dog and a regular flyer who has voted with his feet and flying on other carriers now.
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I think that the reinstatement of ST is so important to Bassa because it would upset those who did not strike and that way Bassa would get back at the strike breakers.
All the more reason for WW to keep his back straight and not push away those people who helped him.
Respect to MissM for being willing to enter into the debate. I disagree with her but respect her position.
One thing though... Miss M, you keep saying that things can change through negotiations not impositions yet for more than 6 months the union failed to negotiate over the needed cuts and when they finally put forward proposals these were (PWC comments) far insufficient. Why is it wrong for WW to then impose the cuts, given the urgency of the needed cutbacks?
Or should the union not only represent staff but also be the one managing the business and decide the cut levels? Id the latter is what you think, then you are wrong.
Let management manage...
All the more reason for WW to keep his back straight and not push away those people who helped him.
Respect to MissM for being willing to enter into the debate. I disagree with her but respect her position.
One thing though... Miss M, you keep saying that things can change through negotiations not impositions yet for more than 6 months the union failed to negotiate over the needed cuts and when they finally put forward proposals these were (PWC comments) far insufficient. Why is it wrong for WW to then impose the cuts, given the urgency of the needed cutbacks?
Or should the union not only represent staff but also be the one managing the business and decide the cut levels? Id the latter is what you think, then you are wrong.
Let management manage...
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vH I think that the reinstatement of ST is so important to Bassa because it would upset those who did not strike and that way Bassa would get back at the strike breakers.
Best comment I have seen for some time.
MissM.
LuvYa. Thoroughly enjoyed your posts, and hoped you would develop your reasoning. I have to thank you for your contributions, it's a close run thing (the argument). Without being patronising I'm sorry you've not risen above some of the pettiness, I always felt you had the capacity to help us understand.
sincerely, best wishes.
RK
Best comment I have seen for some time.
MissM.
LuvYa. Thoroughly enjoyed your posts, and hoped you would develop your reasoning. I have to thank you for your contributions, it's a close run thing (the argument). Without being patronising I'm sorry you've not risen above some of the pettiness, I always felt you had the capacity to help us understand.
sincerely, best wishes.
RK
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R Knee
"Without being patronising I'm sorry you've not risen above some of the pettiness, I always felt you had the capacity to help us understand"
I think it's us who are lacking understanding.....lacking a full understanding of how much BASSA have brainwashed their members into believing their, and only their, message. We think we can immediatley change this and get her to see the light with a reasoned arguement, but we cant.
Miss M beleives removal of ST is a punishment, which I agree it isn't, but thats been driven into her by BASSA - we see ourselves as being reasonable and objective - she sees us has another entity trying to influence her.....give her some slack - it can't be easy coming out with your own opinion after years of being told what you should think....
I think it's us who are lacking understanding.....lacking a full understanding of how much BASSA have brainwashed their members into believing their, and only their, message. We think we can immediatley change this and get her to see the light with a reasoned arguement, but we cant.
Miss M beleives removal of ST is a punishment, which I agree it isn't, but thats been driven into her by BASSA - we see ourselves as being reasonable and objective - she sees us has another entity trying to influence her.....give her some slack - it can't be easy coming out with your own opinion after years of being told what you should think....
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harrypic
Got me thinking....
One definition of a cult:
"a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false"
"followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader"
Let's not forget though that whilst some follow their leader, like those in Jonestown in Guyana led by Jim Jones....(beggars belief as to why, but they did), others did manage to see sense eventually and escaped before the mass suicide!
she sees us as another entity trying to influence her.....give her some slack - it can't be easy coming out with your own opinion after years of being told what you should think....
One definition of a cult:
"a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false"
"followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader"
Let's not forget though that whilst some follow their leader, like those in Jonestown in Guyana led by Jim Jones....(beggars belief as to why, but they did), others did manage to see sense eventually and escaped before the mass suicide!
Paxing All Over The World
Concise Oxford Tenth Edition:
cult
· n.
1 a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. Ø a relatively small religious group regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
2 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.
– DERIVATIVES cultic adj. cultish adj. cultishness n. cultism n. cultist n.
– ORIGIN C17: from Fr. culte or L. cultus ‘worship’.
cult
· n.
1 a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. Ø a relatively small religious group regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
2 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.
– DERIVATIVES cultic adj. cultish adj. cultishness n. cultism n. cultist n.
– ORIGIN C17: from Fr. culte or L. cultus ‘worship’.
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Not a cult, but a formerly autopoetic organization
BASSA was used to running its own world and having the final say in all types of decision.
This has strong parallels with the definition of an autopoetic organization, see AUTOPOIESIS
It is painfully obvious to outsiders that BASSA is no longer autopoetic, but some people don't seem to have grasped that and are living in denial.
This represents classic resistance to change and the question is whether this resistance will be tolerated by BA.
If ST is reinstated, the answer is yes and the autopoiesis may return.
Just my two cents and opinion.
This has strong parallels with the definition of an autopoetic organization, see AUTOPOIESIS
It is painfully obvious to outsiders that BASSA is no longer autopoetic, but some people don't seem to have grasped that and are living in denial.
This represents classic resistance to change and the question is whether this resistance will be tolerated by BA.
If ST is reinstated, the answer is yes and the autopoiesis may return.
Just my two cents and opinion.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Not sure if this has been aired, but Unite are going out of their way to foster support from the travelling public.
From a BA release 23/4, regarding the 'recovery' plan for stranded pax:
Our preference is to use Heathrow and Gatwick cabin crew to operate
these extra flights when we can. Where there is a need for us to alter
normal industrial arrangements, for example to reduce the rest time
downroute in order to bring our customers and colleagues home quickly, we
are asking Unite to agree. Where the union declines our requests, and
unfortunately this has happened today, we will use volunteer cabin crew. The
first example of this will be a Hong Kong to Heathrow flight this afternoon.
Nice one, boys and girls!
:
From a BA release 23/4, regarding the 'recovery' plan for stranded pax:
Our preference is to use Heathrow and Gatwick cabin crew to operate
these extra flights when we can. Where there is a need for us to alter
normal industrial arrangements, for example to reduce the rest time
downroute in order to bring our customers and colleagues home quickly, we
are asking Unite to agree. Where the union declines our requests, and
unfortunately this has happened today, we will use volunteer cabin crew. The
first example of this will be a Hong Kong to Heathrow flight this afternoon.
Nice one, boys and girls!
: