BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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Lull in the conflict?
It seems to me that a strange quiet has descended over the dispute at the moment, with very little t1t and certainly no tat going on. However, one or two of the more erudite and clear thinking members over on the restricted thread have made some excellent points. And asked some very thought provoking and challenging questions.
There are a lot of very good posts over there, but in my opinion Highflyer14 is absolutely on the money, although so far no-one has an answer to his/her major issue. He/she argues; that if somehow BASSA can get its act together quickly and suggest to its members - it cannot 'offer' anything at present - that if WW were to repeat the last offer made and withdrawn, what would be their reaction - then they would likely accept. This, she/he probably rightly says, would perhaps bring the current dispute to an end, but to the detriment of the non striking crew and worse, would leave BASSA largely intact and still capable of causing all the nausea they do at the moment. This would not be to the advantage of either the non striking crew or WW as British Airways.
BASSA, I think, are waiting for WW to make the next move, while WW has apparently no clear stated short term intention. Which is rare for someone who has made it policy to announce every intention clearly, well in advance and remained virtually rivetted to that intention. Given Highflyer14's view is correct, then the core question is; what will WW do next and, perhaps more importantly, when?
I don't know how many contributors to this thread are 'restricted thread qualified' and how much transfers across, but I would really like to know how much of the opinions expressed on the restricted thread find their way to senior BA management. Indeed, how much actually gets to BASSA senior staff? One thing is certain, more verifyable facts relating to the BA position are posted there and poured over endlessly, while I have seen not a single, well written, clearly thought out, verifyable justification of BASSA's position. And I have read every post on two of the five BA Crew IA threads and every one on the current one.
Roger.
There are a lot of very good posts over there, but in my opinion Highflyer14 is absolutely on the money, although so far no-one has an answer to his/her major issue. He/she argues; that if somehow BASSA can get its act together quickly and suggest to its members - it cannot 'offer' anything at present - that if WW were to repeat the last offer made and withdrawn, what would be their reaction - then they would likely accept. This, she/he probably rightly says, would perhaps bring the current dispute to an end, but to the detriment of the non striking crew and worse, would leave BASSA largely intact and still capable of causing all the nausea they do at the moment. This would not be to the advantage of either the non striking crew or WW as British Airways.
BASSA, I think, are waiting for WW to make the next move, while WW has apparently no clear stated short term intention. Which is rare for someone who has made it policy to announce every intention clearly, well in advance and remained virtually rivetted to that intention. Given Highflyer14's view is correct, then the core question is; what will WW do next and, perhaps more importantly, when?
I don't know how many contributors to this thread are 'restricted thread qualified' and how much transfers across, but I would really like to know how much of the opinions expressed on the restricted thread find their way to senior BA management. Indeed, how much actually gets to BASSA senior staff? One thing is certain, more verifyable facts relating to the BA position are posted there and poured over endlessly, while I have seen not a single, well written, clearly thought out, verifyable justification of BASSA's position. And I have read every post on two of the five BA Crew IA threads and every one on the current one.
Roger.
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while I have seen not a single, well written, clearly thought out, verifyable justification of BASSA's position
That suggests that some of the more vocal union supporters are as much in the dark, of the inner workings, as ourselves.
This is possibly why there has never been any "justification"
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I don't see WW or any of his people (undisguised) commenting on here for the same reasons.
Maybe it's best that everyone enjoy the Easter break and maybe some serious reflection can be done by both sides.
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West Lakes
I have heard it said that the reps have, generally, not posted on any forum for a long time - by agreement.
That suggests that some of the more vocal union supporters are as much in the dark, of the inner workings, as ourselves.
This is possibly why there has never been any "justification"
That suggests that some of the more vocal union supporters are as much in the dark, of the inner workings, as ourselves.
This is possibly why there has never been any "justification"
So far as I am aware, the most articulate and clear thinking contributors on the other thread are 'simply' crew and I mean no denegration there. Because of the broadly open nature of argument on PPRuNe, I have learned an awful lot about this dispute - from what I can understand, probably more than the average BASSA member - so why have those members not taken advantage of this forum and found out what is really going on? And why have none of them put the BASSA view on the front foot, by clearly elaborating their case?
I think HighFlyer14's main 'gripe', if I can pressume to summarise her/him, is that while most of the non strikers have taken the trouble to listen to both sides of the argument and made up their minds accordingly, most of the strikers have listened exclusively to BASSA and by doing so have materially disadvantaged all cabin crew. Because BASSA either have no idea which side their bread is buttered or, have their own agenda.
Roger.
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Interesting Information on Cabin Crew Thread
Does anyone else think it interesting that according to a couple of posts on the cabin crew thread, BA has withdrawn facilities at the crew report centre for the union; and have insisted that BASSA reps are not any longer de-rostered for 'union duties' and have to perform these on their days off?
As an ex crew performance manager I can attest to the many days operationally fit reps used to get taken off trips to attend meetings or do office cover, all the time being paid a nice stipend by BASSA worth more than the allowances for the trip, as well as their basic salary by BA. This was recognised custom and practise for years. Indeed I can recall manpower plans being written that removed the reps from the numbers of crew who flew, i.e. they were considered over and above the numbers required to fly the operation.
Sadly this led to a situation which seemed to be the norm in the recent past for crew to speak to their BASSA rep over an issue, rather than speak first to their immediate manager for a solution. Can anyone over on the crew thread attest to this as being still the case prior to this round of industrial action?
And I presume the removal of facilities for the Union applies also to the CC89 representatives?
Oldflyboy
As an ex crew performance manager I can attest to the many days operationally fit reps used to get taken off trips to attend meetings or do office cover, all the time being paid a nice stipend by BASSA worth more than the allowances for the trip, as well as their basic salary by BA. This was recognised custom and practise for years. Indeed I can recall manpower plans being written that removed the reps from the numbers of crew who flew, i.e. they were considered over and above the numbers required to fly the operation.
Sadly this led to a situation which seemed to be the norm in the recent past for crew to speak to their BASSA rep over an issue, rather than speak first to their immediate manager for a solution. Can anyone over on the crew thread attest to this as being still the case prior to this round of industrial action?
And I presume the removal of facilities for the Union applies also to the CC89 representatives?
Oldflyboy
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An apology from The Guardian in respect of the front page article "BA told to hit union 'where it hurts'":
Frank Burchill - Apology | From the Guardian | guardian.co.uk
Frank Burchill - Apology | From the Guardian | guardian.co.uk
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oldflyboy
Not before time! This could herald a sea change in the way the company conducts IR activities going forward. Not that this particular situation is confined to CC. I know of former and current lay representatives who appear on individual managers headcount budget but for rostering purposes are not taken into account when planning available resources. Some have never struck a blow in anger on behalf of the company/customer for years! It is high time BA got a grip of the situation and cleaned this mess up.
Landroger
BASSA, I think, are waiting for WW to make the next move
1. The final offer ( the one made post the announcement of strike dates) is still on the table. Announce more strike dates and that offer will be gone.
2. Staff Travel will not be re-instated for strikers.
3. Those staff going through the Company's disciplinary process will continue to be "processed".
That's it.
Having seen the consequences of walking out the rank and file Cabin Crew will be stewing on the consequences to them of another walkout, I suspect UNITE are trying to untangle themselves from the unholy mess that BASSA has put them in...in the meantime the BASSA Reps will be desparately trying to do something, anything to get the issue back onto the front pages of the newspapers. I reckon WW is sleeping more soundly than the UNITE/BASSA Reps this weekend.
fly12345 summed it all up very eloquently when he posted:
There has never been a strategy attached to Bassa actions, they remain a destructive, evil force only thinking of themselves and nothing else, a bunch of hooligans with disproportionate power and unfortunately (ever decreasing) following.
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oldflyboy
It was for all Unions, as I understand it. It was one of those moves that emerged in a different era.
As I have said before, this is the airline's 'Wapping'. One of the problems with human nature is that the 'pendulum' gets pushed too far in one direction and then the other. Mgmt held sway for a long time (centuries) so unions pushed it back the other, just as far. Now, instead of it being held in the middle to balance both sides, it will swing too far back the other way.
As an ex crew performance manager I can attest to the many days operationally fit reps used to get taken off trips to attend meetings or do office cover, all the time being paid a nice stipend by BASSA worth more than the allowances for the trip, as well as their basic salary by BA. This was recognised custom and practise for years.
As I have said before, this is the airline's 'Wapping'. One of the problems with human nature is that the 'pendulum' gets pushed too far in one direction and then the other. Mgmt held sway for a long time (centuries) so unions pushed it back the other, just as far. Now, instead of it being held in the middle to balance both sides, it will swing too far back the other way.
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BASSA, I think, are waiting for WW to make the next move, while WW has apparently no clear stated short term intention
If that happens WW will in all probability place on the table the offer that was withdrawn as a result of the strike dates being announced BUT those that did strike will not get their ST back. Why would he put the same offer on the table.......... because the membership were not given the opportunity to vote on it because BASSA announced IA which was against the offer.
By putting the same offer back on the table, those that did not strike wont lose out on anything. Those that did strike will lose ST and possibly their jobs as well if they have been identified to have been involved with intimidation or disciplinary actions. Unite will probably urge their members to accept the offer and blame BASSA for this not getting to the ballot stage previously. BASSA will be severely weakened and even made to look rather foolish and childish for the stance they took and the (mis) information they were posting during IA. The militants will/have been flushed out and will probably be asked to take a long walk off a very short pier. WW can then get back to running the airline and wont ever have to worry about the militant element ever again as he will have very convincingly crushed it.
BASSA will not be able to put up any meaningful resistance to this as it has been proven quite convincingly that only a very small percentage of the work force support them.
So yes....... go home and enjoy easter
BA vs manufacturing
There have recently been some very thoughtful posts, so I thought I'd add my comments.
One of the frustrations as a by-stander in this dispute is that many staff's attitudes at BA appear not to have changed much since they were in the Civil Service.
I worked in manufacturing for quite a while before I joined Aviation, - starting in Merseyside in the 70's. Back in the 70's it sometimes appeared that the TUs had most (but never all) of the power. As with a ball of string, they incrementally took more power from the managers/owners. We often wondered when we could get control of the ball of string!!.
-Paxboy - it's more like a ball of string, and who has control of it, than a pendulum.
Over time, we learnt that by and large, managers got the TUs that they deserved, and many in manufacturing began improving their managers, by both removing the bad ones and properly training their replacements.
Better techniques were introduced to both manage better technically, (MRP processes, Quality, Customer Focus and so on), AND to manage the people better. Manuf did stuff like PPF and STUCK with it.
So the REAL improvement was not a reduction in the TUs power base, but a massive improvement in the managers, and how they managed people. The TUs became less and less relevant to their members' lives, but they satyed as members for "insurance" purposes.
Managers began to manage folk effectively - and "firmly but fairly". For instance, BA's lack of control of sickness absence in the CC and in the Check-in desks has been non-existent until Willy came along.
Oldflyboy - until the last couple of years, BA has been completely unable to effectively man its CC berths as they had zero control of sickness. All they did was over-man the operation to compensate for outrageously high sickness rates. They had NO idea how to deal with Europe's 900 hour limit for CC.
These sorts of issues were resolved in most of manufacturing during the 80's and 90's.
No matter what BA do with TU facilities, and all that stuff, they will continue to have Bassa-type TU represntation until BA make a quantum leap in how their CC are managed.
If I were in Willy's shoes, I would want a complete and rigorous clear-out and/or re-training of those who can change, of the managers who've managed CC over the last 20 years.
Trublue - there will be no "sea-change" in BA IR until there is substantial manager-change, otherwise the old ways will quickly creep back in.
Stoic/Call100 - There are at least 4 camps in Unite. It makes Willy's task tough.
First of all, Mr. £200k+ Simpson and Mr Woodley hate each other. That's 2 camps. Secondly, Mc "I was never a "member" of Militant Tendency" Whatever is seeking re-election. That's the third camp. (He's the torchbearer for the "Broad Left" campaign, which includes the Militant tendency, Socialist Worker and etc camps).
The fouth camp is the local branch - and of course, that itself is split in two, with Amicus reps still hating the Bassa shower.
A couple of friends of mine are National Officers in the "fifth" camp in Unite - who are simply worried about the impact of the call for £700k on their membership numbers. Their members are more in the North than the South, and they regard the BA CC as very posh, very rich Southerners. Why should their branches cough up? (The Branches will cough up because the branches are mainly run by the "Broad Left".
Time to change the managers!!!
One of the frustrations as a by-stander in this dispute is that many staff's attitudes at BA appear not to have changed much since they were in the Civil Service.
I worked in manufacturing for quite a while before I joined Aviation, - starting in Merseyside in the 70's. Back in the 70's it sometimes appeared that the TUs had most (but never all) of the power. As with a ball of string, they incrementally took more power from the managers/owners. We often wondered when we could get control of the ball of string!!.
-Paxboy - it's more like a ball of string, and who has control of it, than a pendulum.
Over time, we learnt that by and large, managers got the TUs that they deserved, and many in manufacturing began improving their managers, by both removing the bad ones and properly training their replacements.
Better techniques were introduced to both manage better technically, (MRP processes, Quality, Customer Focus and so on), AND to manage the people better. Manuf did stuff like PPF and STUCK with it.
So the REAL improvement was not a reduction in the TUs power base, but a massive improvement in the managers, and how they managed people. The TUs became less and less relevant to their members' lives, but they satyed as members for "insurance" purposes.
Managers began to manage folk effectively - and "firmly but fairly". For instance, BA's lack of control of sickness absence in the CC and in the Check-in desks has been non-existent until Willy came along.
Oldflyboy - until the last couple of years, BA has been completely unable to effectively man its CC berths as they had zero control of sickness. All they did was over-man the operation to compensate for outrageously high sickness rates. They had NO idea how to deal with Europe's 900 hour limit for CC.
These sorts of issues were resolved in most of manufacturing during the 80's and 90's.
No matter what BA do with TU facilities, and all that stuff, they will continue to have Bassa-type TU represntation until BA make a quantum leap in how their CC are managed.
If I were in Willy's shoes, I would want a complete and rigorous clear-out and/or re-training of those who can change, of the managers who've managed CC over the last 20 years.
Trublue - there will be no "sea-change" in BA IR until there is substantial manager-change, otherwise the old ways will quickly creep back in.
Stoic/Call100 - There are at least 4 camps in Unite. It makes Willy's task tough.
First of all, Mr. £200k+ Simpson and Mr Woodley hate each other. That's 2 camps. Secondly, Mc "I was never a "member" of Militant Tendency" Whatever is seeking re-election. That's the third camp. (He's the torchbearer for the "Broad Left" campaign, which includes the Militant tendency, Socialist Worker and etc camps).
The fouth camp is the local branch - and of course, that itself is split in two, with Amicus reps still hating the Bassa shower.
A couple of friends of mine are National Officers in the "fifth" camp in Unite - who are simply worried about the impact of the call for £700k on their membership numbers. Their members are more in the North than the South, and they regard the BA CC as very posh, very rich Southerners. Why should their branches cough up? (The Branches will cough up because the branches are mainly run by the "Broad Left".
Time to change the managers!!!
BASSA will not be able to put up any meaningful resistance to this as it has been proven quite convincingly that only a very small percentage of the work force support them.
BASSA's missives to date all carry the same story, namely the strikes have cost BA millions, CC crossing picket lines only coz they're being bullied, its only a matter of time before WW caves in or is booted out by the board, ST will be reinstated etc etc
Human nature tends to give greater credence to "information" which agrees with and/or supports one's point of view. Conversly there would be a natural distrust of "information" supporting any contrary view.
I therefore expect many BASSA reps, supporters etc actually believe their own propaganda. The "20 jets at Cardiff" story is a good case in point -surely nobody in their right mind would attempt to peddle that story in an attempt to garner support when it was so easily disprovable. I suspect that rumour probably started with 1 BASSA member saying that's what BA would probably do and a couple of Chinese whispers later it was taken as "fact" and triumphantly announced to the media.
It is possible therefore that BASSA truly believe that the ball is firmly in WW's court and its up to him to make the next move. If so, they'll likely have a long wait....
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BASSA's missives to date all carry the same story, namely the strikes have cost BA millions, CC crossing picket lines only coz they're being bullied, its only a matter of time before WW caves in or is booted out by the board, ST will be reinstated etc etc
The more militant members will believe that Arthur Scargill is about to team up with Derek Hatton and between them find a way to bring the airline to its knees and then BASSA will have taught everyone a lesson!!!!!
The reality, IMHO is very different. WW does not have to do anything. He has already said that he wants to deal with UNITE as the official representative of the CC. My feeling, (and wish) and you are right i might be totally wrong, is that BASSA is weakened because it will make BA a much better airline. Not because of the lack of representation of the CC but because the airline will not have to deal so much with the Militant element anymore.
The comerarderie and the good will shown by the CC during the strike will probably continue for a while and the only way the militant element can ruin it is through intimidation which will get those perpetrators fired.
Several people posting on both threads have mentioned about surly CC but the strike may just have put people in a better frame of mind and that hopefully will make the company a better one and then fans of the product, like myself, will see an even better product.
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I will not add hypothesis to hypothesis ... I guess we'll all have to wait and see what happens.
I hope Global Warrior's perspective is correct - one thing is abundantly clear from this and other Forums and Boards: things simply HAVE to change. The good people of BA will be a major force in achieving that ... the baying hordes of BASSA certainly won't.
FLY BA
WW does not have to do anything. He has already said that he wants to deal with UNITE as the official representative of the CC. My feeling, (and wish) and you are right i might be totally wrong, is that BASSA is weakened because it will make BA a much better airline. Not because of the lack of representation of the CC but because the airline will not have to deal so much with the Militant element anymore.
FLY BA
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, how much actually gets to BASSA senior staff?
It's the only method at their disposal to obtained unbiassed information on what crew, customers and every other interested party thinks.
Apart from LalaLizanne Homalone, of course; nothing penetrates into her cranium: only what she wants to read.
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Tsk tsk, CCC ... that's "biased". 
But I would agree ... there are undoubtedly staff at BA exploring the various Forums, and recording the 'inappropriate comments', and identifying the subscribers. I doubt that WW hadn't planned that particular angle.
Perhaps that's why the CC Thread now lacks the "balanced input" of those heroic strike supporters we knew - otherwise known as 'keeping your head down when the sh1t hits the fan'. Belated Union advice to the 'militant few', perhaps?
Have a good weekend.
But I would agree ... there are undoubtedly staff at BA exploring the various Forums, and recording the 'inappropriate comments', and identifying the subscribers. I doubt that WW hadn't planned that particular angle.
Perhaps that's why the CC Thread now lacks the "balanced input" of those heroic strike supporters we knew - otherwise known as 'keeping your head down when the sh1t hits the fan'. Belated Union advice to the 'militant few', perhaps?
Have a good weekend.
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From the BA v BASSA thread
Act against PPRuNE!
Watch out PPRuNe! The utterly barking BA cabin crew have decided enough is enough and they're going to take this site down - by writing to the TUC!!
Be afraid, be very afraid!!
Watch out PPRuNe! The utterly barking BA cabin crew have decided enough is enough and they're going to take this site down - by writing to the TUC!!
Be afraid, be very afraid!!
Paxing All Over The World
Ancient Observer
Good analogy.
Ah, I know what you mean. Twenty years after the privatisation of British Telecom - there were still some old thinkers in there (not necessarily 'old' people!) who thought that BT deserved to get the business - because they were BT. Corporate culture does not change quickly.
Yes, I agree 100%.
Only once did I see it reported that Thatcher complained about weak British mgmt.
Paxboy - it's more like a ball of string, and who has control of it, than a pendulum.
One of the frustrations as a by-stander in this dispute is that many staff's attitudes at BA appear not to have changed much since they were in the Civil Service.
Over time, we learnt that by and large, managers got the TUs that they deserved, and many in manufacturing began improving their managers, by both removing the bad ones and properly training their replacements.
Only once did I see it reported that Thatcher complained about weak British mgmt.
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