BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
Paxing All Over The World
Evanelpus
It's the old, old, old equation of time or money. If your time is cheap, you can take an early and sleep nice-nice in the hotel. If your time is expensive, you sleep as best you can on the plane.
(I've recounted this before) Working for a client in HKG in the 90s. LHR-SFO two days biz for them. SFO-HKG arrive 18:00 and straight to bed. Arrived office Thursday morning knowing that the Friday was the BIG day with the three finalists in the Tender doing their presentations on a critical communications project. I was the lead consultant. So I had a day to catch up.
No. I was told the presentations had been brought forward to save a day. They had made me do both long hauls in Y as they would not pay more (PE did not exist). Result? I fell asleep during the presentations.
Please do not assume that the solution that is good for you is good for us. Most frequents that I know do also (as was said) leave on Sunday evening or only get back on a Saturday and miss family events. I'm glad I don't do it any more.
Besides, if the shareholders knew how much money their companies were pi$$ing down the drain on REALLY unimportant stuff - you would have the CEO sacked on the spot.
Then go a day earlier. Even a nights hotel won't bust the bank comparing the difference between business and economy fares. When my old company went through the cost cutting regime, we did this and it wasn't unpleasant at all.
(I've recounted this before) Working for a client in HKG in the 90s. LHR-SFO two days biz for them. SFO-HKG arrive 18:00 and straight to bed. Arrived office Thursday morning knowing that the Friday was the BIG day with the three finalists in the Tender doing their presentations on a critical communications project. I was the lead consultant. So I had a day to catch up.
No. I was told the presentations had been brought forward to save a day. They had made me do both long hauls in Y as they would not pay more (PE did not exist). Result? I fell asleep during the presentations.
Please do not assume that the solution that is good for you is good for us. Most frequents that I know do also (as was said) leave on Sunday evening or only get back on a Saturday and miss family events. I'm glad I don't do it any more.
Besides, if the shareholders knew how much money their companies were pi$$ing down the drain on REALLY unimportant stuff - you would have the CEO sacked on the spot.
You have a meeting on Friday morning that you can't miss, so youi can't stay overnight. On Thursday, you're somewhere in Europe. The last flight is around 1930: your meeting finishes late, so you have no time at the airport. You're diabetic so you MUST have a meal. Not much alternative to Business Class is there?
Since company profits don't affect my pension, and don't affect my pay rise (as I haven't had one for five years), and I do 40% more than my contracted hours, many of them in the air, then why shouldn't I get that bit of luxury - and the meal.
The other problem with going a day early and coming back a day later is that strange as it may seem, I do like to see my wife on occasion. For those with children, that's even more pressing. With the amount of travelling on business my wife does,it's not often we get even a full weekend together
Since company profits don't affect my pension, and don't affect my pay rise (as I haven't had one for five years), and I do 40% more than my contracted hours, many of them in the air, then why shouldn't I get that bit of luxury - and the meal.
The other problem with going a day early and coming back a day later is that strange as it may seem, I do like to see my wife on occasion. For those with children, that's even more pressing. With the amount of travelling on business my wife does,it's not often we get even a full weekend together
Bad industrial relations starts at the top, not at the bottom, with the proviso that unions with a political agenda, such as Unite, can and do deliberately make a deteriorating situation 1,000 times worse.
The real blame lies fairly and squarely with BA's dreadful, lazy, overpaid, over-manned and incompetent middle and senior management. Time-serving wasters, most of them, up to and including the Executive and non-Executive Directors.
But those staff who have voted for a strike have to share the blame for allowing themselves to be led by the nose into doing that. I cannot think of any high-profile, large-scale strike since 1970 that has achieved a long-term sustained improvement in the strikers' pay and conditions.
The notion that you can improve your lot by pushing an employer to the brink of bankruptcy, which in BA's case the threat of strike rather than a actual withdrawal of labour has achieved already, is one of the enduring fantasies of the union movement. It might work in the public sector, because there is no financial imperative, and unions know that sooner or later the employer will agree to spend more tax-payers' funds to satisfy their demands. But private sector employers can and do fail, putting the entire workforce on the dole. BA is not too big or important for that to happen.
The words "turkeys" and "Christmas" come to mind whenever I see scenes of jubilation after a strike vote.
I feel immensely sympathetic with those staff whose livelihoods are threatened by the hard core who, knowingly or not, are striking for a political objective set by Mr Harriet Harman and his cronies. God knows what that is, but I don't.
The real blame lies fairly and squarely with BA's dreadful, lazy, overpaid, over-manned and incompetent middle and senior management. Time-serving wasters, most of them, up to and including the Executive and non-Executive Directors.
But those staff who have voted for a strike have to share the blame for allowing themselves to be led by the nose into doing that. I cannot think of any high-profile, large-scale strike since 1970 that has achieved a long-term sustained improvement in the strikers' pay and conditions.
The notion that you can improve your lot by pushing an employer to the brink of bankruptcy, which in BA's case the threat of strike rather than a actual withdrawal of labour has achieved already, is one of the enduring fantasies of the union movement. It might work in the public sector, because there is no financial imperative, and unions know that sooner or later the employer will agree to spend more tax-payers' funds to satisfy their demands. But private sector employers can and do fail, putting the entire workforce on the dole. BA is not too big or important for that to happen.
The words "turkeys" and "Christmas" come to mind whenever I see scenes of jubilation after a strike vote.
I feel immensely sympathetic with those staff whose livelihoods are threatened by the hard core who, knowingly or not, are striking for a political objective set by Mr Harriet Harman and his cronies. God knows what that is, but I don't.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem with traveling the night before is that invariably I will be somewhere else or its the weekend.... If it is somewhere else the customers who are paying large money for my time get upset when I walk offsite at 3pm to catch a plane!
I work exceptionally long hours, get rewarded well for it, however, I personally wont fly down the back of the plane for anything more than 6 hours if I am expected to get off the flight and go straight to work.
My time vs money equation is fairly simple, I fly economy to Oz, its going to cost about 800 pounds vs a 2500-3100 business class fare.
A day of my time makes the company about 1250 so technically I fly economy I need 2 days to recover, this ends up costing the company money. Plus goodwill.
I work exceptionally long hours, get rewarded well for it, however, I personally wont fly down the back of the plane for anything more than 6 hours if I am expected to get off the flight and go straight to work.
My time vs money equation is fairly simple, I fly economy to Oz, its going to cost about 800 pounds vs a 2500-3100 business class fare.
A day of my time makes the company about 1250 so technically I fly economy I need 2 days to recover, this ends up costing the company money. Plus goodwill.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'll go and ask the Captain
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I actually do support the cabin crew. I fully understand the frustration any passenger affected by this strike feels, however the notion that having a career in customer service prevents you from withdrawing your labour if you genuinely believe that your livelihood is under threat doesn't work. The company can always approach negotiations without any real intention or desire to negotiate if they can stand back and milk the public outcry.
Although the cabin crew should have made every effort over the last few years to be the best and not milk the job and lower standards. If you're the best then you have an argument that the public will understand. If your average or not as good as your competitors then you suffer.
I believe that the union has been tactically out maneuvered on almost every front. Why this has happened I can't comment upon. I do know that the many many many of the CC genuinely fear that they will eventually have to leave the industry as the airlines replace crew with cheaper replacements. These newer crew will nearly all be younger than 25 quite happy to earn around the minimum wage and be compulsory made to work 20 hours a week more than any ground based job of 37.5 hours. Remember that labour laws don't apply for aircrew. Instead they can be made to operate to CAP 371. Have a look at the CAA web site and find it in publications. You won't find any requirement for a rest break in a 14 hour day anywhere.
Increasingly this is how airlines are operating their crew. Many BA CC have migrated there from other UK carriers. I would even go so far as to say it's the majority. They left airlines where a long term career felt unattainable and BA offered a career that allowed them to fly and have a house, family etc. Not all crew can or want to progress through the ranks of a smaller carrier where a life that most aspire (anyone, not just crew) is achievable.
I fear that the battle is already lost.
6
Although the cabin crew should have made every effort over the last few years to be the best and not milk the job and lower standards. If you're the best then you have an argument that the public will understand. If your average or not as good as your competitors then you suffer.
I believe that the union has been tactically out maneuvered on almost every front. Why this has happened I can't comment upon. I do know that the many many many of the CC genuinely fear that they will eventually have to leave the industry as the airlines replace crew with cheaper replacements. These newer crew will nearly all be younger than 25 quite happy to earn around the minimum wage and be compulsory made to work 20 hours a week more than any ground based job of 37.5 hours. Remember that labour laws don't apply for aircrew. Instead they can be made to operate to CAP 371. Have a look at the CAA web site and find it in publications. You won't find any requirement for a rest break in a 14 hour day anywhere.
Increasingly this is how airlines are operating their crew. Many BA CC have migrated there from other UK carriers. I would even go so far as to say it's the majority. They left airlines where a long term career felt unattainable and BA offered a career that allowed them to fly and have a house, family etc. Not all crew can or want to progress through the ranks of a smaller carrier where a life that most aspire (anyone, not just crew) is achievable.
I fear that the battle is already lost.
6
Last edited by 6chimes; 19th Mar 2010 at 13:43. Reason: spelling
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course labour law applies to aircrew (though I will concede that the high court didn't choose to think that way last time around).
Employees should be allowed to strike, and there was an overwhelming vote to do so, which means the employees should have protection.
What is different about BA is they have an effective monopoly on a very important airport for UK PLC. This monopoly was granted back in the days when airlines were regulated and is basically a gift from the taxpayers and all they have done is waste it.
So let them strike, but they should lose any LHR slots they don't use, permanently. Let them fly out of Gatwick or anywhere else who wants them. Plenty of decent airlines around will fill their place and that has to be good for the passenger.
Employees should be allowed to strike, and there was an overwhelming vote to do so, which means the employees should have protection.
What is different about BA is they have an effective monopoly on a very important airport for UK PLC. This monopoly was granted back in the days when airlines were regulated and is basically a gift from the taxpayers and all they have done is waste it.
So let them strike, but they should lose any LHR slots they don't use, permanently. Let them fly out of Gatwick or anywhere else who wants them. Plenty of decent airlines around will fill their place and that has to be good for the passenger.
Scumbag...disagree
I disagree strongly with your rather nasty, and frankly silly final comments
"plenty of decent airlines...."
but particularly..
Employees of BA
What about the thousands of decent , hard working employees at BA, who appreciate they have a decent job , and in very difficult times, accept that we all have to make sacrifices.
I certainly have had to, and so have many other people.
and who are these "plenty of decent airlines ...."??
Who?
Virgin?
Ryanair ?
Both of whom pay their own cabin crew around half what BA pay.
Right...BA goes and CC they will have plenty of opportunities for jobs then , at half what they earn now!
As for the customer..me/us!
Sorry BA is may be a half decent airline, but they knock spots off
Virgin and most other carriers
Your views seem somewhat unrealistic
Some carriers may be better but they are not UK based.
and there is nobody better than BA waiting in the wings.. except perhaps for BA mark II
"plenty of decent airlines...."
but particularly..
Employees of BA
What about the thousands of decent , hard working employees at BA, who appreciate they have a decent job , and in very difficult times, accept that we all have to make sacrifices.
I certainly have had to, and so have many other people.
and who are these "plenty of decent airlines ...."??
Who?
Virgin?
Ryanair ?
Both of whom pay their own cabin crew around half what BA pay.
Right...BA goes and CC they will have plenty of opportunities for jobs then , at half what they earn now!
As for the customer..me/us!
Sorry BA is may be a half decent airline, but they knock spots off
Virgin and most other carriers
Your views seem somewhat unrealistic
Some carriers may be better but they are not UK based.
and there is nobody better than BA waiting in the wings.. except perhaps for BA mark II
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why?
Fear about something that MAY happen, is no valid reason to go on strike. Cheaper crew may have been brought in through VR and retirement, I don't know and I imagine they didn't either, but of course that may have changed now in the light of a strike. Also it wasn't Mr Walsh who talked about a pay cut, that was BASSA, WW said a pay freeze....very different! As the strike is now due to start, I hope the people rostering the longhaul flights tonight are only using non-union and volunteer crew, otherwise come midnight it could get rather nasty!
Scumbag
Nasty,. "well "let them strike "!! is non too pleasant
esp for the thousands of paying customers ( including possibly me) who may suffer as a result.
as for your further comment.
"have more respect for your paying customers"
I AM A PAYING CUSTOMER..
I dont work for BA, never have.
But, as a customer, I can tell the difference between an airline that strives for quality, albeit failing in many areas, and one that offers a cheap service using cheap labour (CC)
I am at a loss as to which "decent airlines" to who might be able to fill their place and offer a quality global network.
Nasty,. "well "let them strike "!! is non too pleasant
esp for the thousands of paying customers ( including possibly me) who may suffer as a result.
as for your further comment.
"have more respect for your paying customers"
I AM A PAYING CUSTOMER..
I dont work for BA, never have.
But, as a customer, I can tell the difference between an airline that strives for quality, albeit failing in many areas, and one that offers a cheap service using cheap labour (CC)
I am at a loss as to which "decent airlines" to who might be able to fill their place and offer a quality global network.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone UK people with spare miles might consider Holidays4Heroes
At the moment just a non-profit, but about to become a Registered UK Charity. Miles could be VERY useful.
At the moment just a non-profit, but about to become a Registered UK Charity. Miles could be VERY useful.
Guest
Posts: n/a
strives for quality, albeit failing in many areas
I do agree that the BA of 10 years ago was a decent airline, but the BA of 2010 is not.
That, however is rather different than wishing for 40,000 people to lose their jobs.
However, if the management of the company and the employees don't get their act together, this will be the final outcome, not necessarily this year or next, but sometime.
I fly with airlines who strive for quality and deliver it.
At the moment, for short haul, that includes
Air Arabia (lower grade, but fit for purpose)
Air Malta (still 2 x hot towels and always had my 1st choice of hot meal)
Austrian Airlines
Egyptair Express (but not the mainline)
easyJet (lower grade, but fit for purpose)
Lufthansa
Swiss
For long haul
LH/LX
Jet Airways
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 19th Mar 2010 at 18:09.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That, however is rather different than wishing for 40,000 people to lose their jobs.
What we passengers should want above all else is a marketplace and if LHR was opened up to effective competition then there would be other airlines who would fill their place. Currently we have a basket case locking up 40% of LHR slots. Other airlines are effectively being kept out of there when they might want to operate from there and provide a far better service than the current dysfunctional lot. That would generate jobs too. What about the other airline's employees?? It's also a very reasonable assumption that these new airlines would be more efficient than BA and that would generate additional demand which would provide employment, not necessarily based at LHR either.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Scumbag - please elaborate on the "basket case" and others being "more efficient"? The only flight failure I ever had was a FlyBE technical out of SOU. Never EVER had one with BA.
BA has technical and flexibility capabilities that most airlines would only ever dream of. What's your choice of 'replacement carrier' for BA's European and World-wide and Domestic services? Come on, mate, get real.
The fact that BA sometimes doesn't deliver the glossy product on 'some routes' isn't a case for binning the whole thing. All my experiences over the years with BA have been excellent - Domestic and European.
I've been just a little bit pi66ed with the BA LH service from LHR. Now - remind me who are the major whingers and whiners in the current IA? Oh - the LHR crews [or at least the CSDs], the ones that won't accept what LGW crews have been doing for 5 years? .... I'd better stop there, I think.
BA has technical and flexibility capabilities that most airlines would only ever dream of. What's your choice of 'replacement carrier' for BA's European and World-wide and Domestic services? Come on, mate, get real.
The fact that BA sometimes doesn't deliver the glossy product on 'some routes' isn't a case for binning the whole thing. All my experiences over the years with BA have been excellent - Domestic and European.
I've been just a little bit pi66ed with the BA LH service from LHR. Now - remind me who are the major whingers and whiners in the current IA? Oh - the LHR crews [or at least the CSDs], the ones that won't accept what LGW crews have been doing for 5 years? .... I'd better stop there, I think.
Silly question
If all the BA CC resigned and withdrew their pension pot (as they are entitled to do) could BA cover the cash outlay it would have to make?
If a lot more BA staff did the same, (or took the money out after being made redundant) you could envisage severe financial hardship for BA seeing how much the pension fund is in the red.
If a lot more BA staff did the same, (or took the money out after being made redundant) you could envisage severe financial hardship for BA seeing how much the pension fund is in the red.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: england
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunday 21 March
We're booked on 2166 TPA-LGW on Sunday evening. We're looking forward to thanking the loyal CC members for getting us home from this hell of warm sunshine & blue skies.
Roll on Gatwick's rain on Monday morning & the smiling faces of the lonely pickets, or will they all be at LHR?
Roll on Gatwick's rain on Monday morning & the smiling faces of the lonely pickets, or will they all be at LHR?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: East of LGB
Age: 69
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then go a day earlier.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm with Evan on this. My international is down to zero now, all domestic but (presuming your travel department isn't tightass) you need to be in top form for your negotiations, etc. If you need to justify it, consider scheduling a short pre-meeting the day before. Go in for a few hours and then go back to your hotel and prepare for the next day.
If it doesn't justify either 48 hours of rest in country or business class travel, then it can be done by web meeting or conference call.
I try to do as much via these methods as possible and save the travel for the things were 1-2-1 is vital.
I have flown overnight in J, then gone to work the next day after 4 hours sleep - it can be done, but it is not optimum; even after J class, some recovery time is wise.