Panorama BBC1 Monday 12th Oct - Why Hate Ryanair
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I have to say that my biggest problem with this program is that it centred solely on the cost of flying with RYR. I was hoping that there would be at least slightly more interest (although I shouldn't have expected it in fairness) in the way in which Mr O'Leary and his company treats and employs his staff. True, there are plenty who enjoy working for RYR but they (and I realise that I might be talking about you) are also working on some of the poorest conditions in Europe. There are those of us who take the opinion that flying is a career, not a job, and unfortunately the working practices of RYR which have allowed them to become so profitable have also degraded and dehumanised the industry as a whole.
This leads to the debate of paying for a TR etc, which is another story. But my 20 cents (I actually use sterling but so the saying goes):
I am saddened that the general public, who now expect to fly to Malaga, Scally-cante or wherever else they head to to catch their sun for 30 quid each way, are so ignorant (and are seemingly unwilling to be made conscious) of the cost of:
- flying a 70 million dollar jet aeroplane through some of the busiest skies on the face of the earth, burning (I must admit the exact number has slipped my mind, I was in work VERY early this morning) c6 tonnes of jet fuel (at between £700 and £1000/tonne - I believe this is accurate in £, it may be in $, if so I apologise, I burn it, I don't pay for it)
- paying the people who fly inside it a respectable wage for doing a reasonable days work (and this brings out the sad truth that most people think we are work shy and overpaid.)
- the insurance of the aeroplane, and those who fill its seats, both passengers and crew
- the other costs, such as 'security' charges, airport taxes, landing fees, ATC charges, overnight costs, ongoing maintenance of aircraft to some (if not very possibly THE) highest safety standards in the world
that when someone (and sadly in the race for the bottom, where employees come a very firm last, there are few who do these days) charges the honest cost of taking each person in each seat to their destination, they go bust.
All because Michael O'Leary told the public 'look, you can fly from A to B for 5 quid!'. And the public, sheepishly, follow - without concern for the people who have to work for people like (and not necessarily just MO'L, who just happens to be the best at it) the airline bosses who will happily say 'we put safety first'. I can tell you that that is a lie. It is a lie in the strongest sense of the word. Flight Ops put safety first, and manage to make an airline safe.
I risk heading off at a tangent, if I haven't already done so. My point is that I wish the program could have made the general public aware, and interested in, Ryanair's employees - many of whom had, as they saw it, no choice but to work for them. The reason that they pay for their own uniforms, training (which costs up to £30,000, before having to cover the costs of living WITHOUT PAY during 2.5 months of TR and line training before safety pilot release), medicals, overnights, the reason that they are contractors with no guaranteed income and the risk of being sent home at a minute's notice, who fly 6 sector days and work for longer than anyone can reasonably expected to do so safely and without serious fatigue, is because Mr O'Leary took advantage of the general public's biggest failing - he offered them a bargain.
Strong words possibly, and I know that some people won't agree that he's the harbinger of doom. But remember that Michael O'Leary was once quoted, when asked how he managed his employees so effectively, as answering with one word.
Fear.
I hope that to those of you who are planning to fly with the Blues and Yellows in the near future will at least take the few minutes to read this and understand where the £6 fare comes from.
This leads to the debate of paying for a TR etc, which is another story. But my 20 cents (I actually use sterling but so the saying goes):
I am saddened that the general public, who now expect to fly to Malaga, Scally-cante or wherever else they head to to catch their sun for 30 quid each way, are so ignorant (and are seemingly unwilling to be made conscious) of the cost of:
- flying a 70 million dollar jet aeroplane through some of the busiest skies on the face of the earth, burning (I must admit the exact number has slipped my mind, I was in work VERY early this morning) c6 tonnes of jet fuel (at between £700 and £1000/tonne - I believe this is accurate in £, it may be in $, if so I apologise, I burn it, I don't pay for it)
- paying the people who fly inside it a respectable wage for doing a reasonable days work (and this brings out the sad truth that most people think we are work shy and overpaid.)
- the insurance of the aeroplane, and those who fill its seats, both passengers and crew
- the other costs, such as 'security' charges, airport taxes, landing fees, ATC charges, overnight costs, ongoing maintenance of aircraft to some (if not very possibly THE) highest safety standards in the world
that when someone (and sadly in the race for the bottom, where employees come a very firm last, there are few who do these days) charges the honest cost of taking each person in each seat to their destination, they go bust.
All because Michael O'Leary told the public 'look, you can fly from A to B for 5 quid!'. And the public, sheepishly, follow - without concern for the people who have to work for people like (and not necessarily just MO'L, who just happens to be the best at it) the airline bosses who will happily say 'we put safety first'. I can tell you that that is a lie. It is a lie in the strongest sense of the word. Flight Ops put safety first, and manage to make an airline safe.
I risk heading off at a tangent, if I haven't already done so. My point is that I wish the program could have made the general public aware, and interested in, Ryanair's employees - many of whom had, as they saw it, no choice but to work for them. The reason that they pay for their own uniforms, training (which costs up to £30,000, before having to cover the costs of living WITHOUT PAY during 2.5 months of TR and line training before safety pilot release), medicals, overnights, the reason that they are contractors with no guaranteed income and the risk of being sent home at a minute's notice, who fly 6 sector days and work for longer than anyone can reasonably expected to do so safely and without serious fatigue, is because Mr O'Leary took advantage of the general public's biggest failing - he offered them a bargain.
Strong words possibly, and I know that some people won't agree that he's the harbinger of doom. But remember that Michael O'Leary was once quoted, when asked how he managed his employees so effectively, as answering with one word.
Fear.
I hope that to those of you who are planning to fly with the Blues and Yellows in the near future will at least take the few minutes to read this and understand where the £6 fare comes from.
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I haven't seen the Panorama programme yet. Panorama is shown on BBC World but this particular programme hasn't been trailed whilst I've been watching. I did see the doorstep interview though thanks to the link in PPRuNe.
MOL won that hands down if only because the BBC interviewer was completely unprepared.
Why didn't they get Paxman (Jeremy that is
)to do the job - then we could have seen two bullies slugging it out face to face.
These (so-called) investigative programmes are all very well provided the homework has been done properly. For me a good start would have been if the BBC had arrived on MOL's doorstep with an accurate bottom line comparison of what Ryanair would have charged to get the film crew plus camera and sound equipment to Dublin as apposed to what BMI actually charged. BOTTOM LINE! Itemise all Ryanair's charges exactly as they are levied including the cost of a cup of coffee and something to eat en route. Is BMI catering included? I don't know but it's that sort of detail that would have made the doorstep interview interesting.
I await the main programme but I have a feeling it's going to be boring.
MOL won that hands down if only because the BBC interviewer was completely unprepared.
Why didn't they get Paxman (Jeremy that is
)to do the job - then we could have seen two bullies slugging it out face to face.These (so-called) investigative programmes are all very well provided the homework has been done properly. For me a good start would have been if the BBC had arrived on MOL's doorstep with an accurate bottom line comparison of what Ryanair would have charged to get the film crew plus camera and sound equipment to Dublin as apposed to what BMI actually charged. BOTTOM LINE! Itemise all Ryanair's charges exactly as they are levied including the cost of a cup of coffee and something to eat en route. Is BMI catering included? I don't know but it's that sort of detail that would have made the doorstep interview interesting.
I await the main programme but I have a feeling it's going to be boring.
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170to5
I wholeheartedly agree.
I'm sure there are many that do think those of us that work for other carriers are over paid, under worked and in need of a wake up call.
I'm sure lots of people care very little how much anyone else is paid as long as they get the bargain they wanted. That applies to everything, how many of you really care how much the poor sod in China is paid as long as you get the clothes for a fiver?
That's all fine and dandy until this business model is applied to more and more businesses, and possibly your line of work. There will be plenty of people available to fill virtually every job in the land and do it for less, as people lose their jobs and are prepared to take anything.
So whilst enjoying the low fares that are a result in no small part to low wages and aggressive management, do bear in mind if this model is brought to your industry, you won't be able to afford a flight for 50p.
6
I'm sure there are many that do think those of us that work for other carriers are over paid, under worked and in need of a wake up call.
I'm sure lots of people care very little how much anyone else is paid as long as they get the bargain they wanted. That applies to everything, how many of you really care how much the poor sod in China is paid as long as you get the clothes for a fiver?
That's all fine and dandy until this business model is applied to more and more businesses, and possibly your line of work. There will be plenty of people available to fill virtually every job in the land and do it for less, as people lose their jobs and are prepared to take anything.
So whilst enjoying the low fares that are a result in no small part to low wages and aggressive management, do bear in mind if this model is brought to your industry, you won't be able to afford a flight for 50p.
6
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170to5/6chimes
The big flaw in your argument about Ryanair's alledged poor conditions is that somehow higher fares would solve them. They wouldn't. People would simply fly less, resulting in fewer jobs and zero earnings for many of the current workforce. None of Ryanair's jobs existed before the advent of LoCo air travel, which is a pretty good indicator about what would happen to those jobs if they moved to a higher-fare model.
Ryanair (and others) have successfully exploited EU-driven deregulation of air travel. As a consequence it is now a mass transit system giving travel opportunities to vastly more people than was the case in the days of bilateral, high fare low frequency flights prior to deregualation. Ryanair have no problems filling all their jobs. They had no problem even in the boom years in Ireland when labour shortages were the norm here and those filling those jobs definitely had alternative job opportunities.
I'm no fan of Ryanair. I actively avoid using the airline, which is pretty challenging living in Ireland. However, I have great admiration for what the company has achieved, in particular the fact that it has driven the legacy airlines to match it on cost. And for short haul travel that really is almost the only element that matters. Even BA has now realised nobody gives a stuff about food on short flights.
Ryanair (and others) have successfully exploited EU-driven deregulation of air travel. As a consequence it is now a mass transit system giving travel opportunities to vastly more people than was the case in the days of bilateral, high fare low frequency flights prior to deregualation. Ryanair have no problems filling all their jobs. They had no problem even in the boom years in Ireland when labour shortages were the norm here and those filling those jobs definitely had alternative job opportunities.
I'm no fan of Ryanair. I actively avoid using the airline, which is pretty challenging living in Ireland. However, I have great admiration for what the company has achieved, in particular the fact that it has driven the legacy airlines to match it on cost. And for short haul travel that really is almost the only element that matters. Even BA has now realised nobody gives a stuff about food on short flights.
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Poor conditions?
My heart bleeds for you.
Maybe you want easyjet crew food and your flight pay taxed and NI'd?
Maybe you want to join BA and sit in the RHS for 14 or 15 years?
Join FR and if you work hard and are good enough you can have a command in 3 to 4 years: your BA colleagues sitting in the RHS for an extra 10+ years will NEVER make up the salary difference, and you will still be half a million sterling better off AFTER the cost of the TR.
PS. And you forget that in FR we have job security, unlike Virgin, Thomson, BA and those poor souls at bmi who don't know what way LH will jump.
My heart bleeds for you.
Maybe you want easyjet crew food and your flight pay taxed and NI'd?
Maybe you want to join BA and sit in the RHS for 14 or 15 years?
Join FR and if you work hard and are good enough you can have a command in 3 to 4 years: your BA colleagues sitting in the RHS for an extra 10+ years will NEVER make up the salary difference, and you will still be half a million sterling better off AFTER the cost of the TR.
PS. And you forget that in FR we have job security, unlike Virgin, Thomson, BA and those poor souls at bmi who don't know what way LH will jump.
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ATS may not be the right forum for these questions/viewpoints but as the thread is here then here goes......
Am I right in thinking you are FR CC? If not then I'm probably not talking to the right person. However assuming that you are as your post indicates this.....
Firstly I would never fly FR. That's not because of any personal experience it's because I have "rescued" far to many pax who have been victim to the lack of customer service experience.....you know the ones MOL leaves stranded in the middle of nowhere when the plane is not in the right place for whatever reason he quotes. Those would be families with young children or traveling with elderly rels etc.....the vulnerable pax he so easily exploits.
Great for any other airline who does the so called "rescue" a.k.a basic customer service because we then pick up the pax for future business
However all credit to MOL.....30 mins of free advertising courtesy of our licence fee's.....remind me to cancel my direct debit due to cr*p TV
He also knows his target pax according to the BBC.....the teenagers who don't read the T&C's and just want to get from A to B with nothing more than a condom in the hand luggage. My Godson is one of them
However back in the real world of loco aviation can I just ask a few questions of a fellow CC:
Tell me ATS....do your CC still fall asleep on duty because they are so knackered by their roster pattens they wouldn't even notice a safety problem when it is right under their nose?
Are FR still "getting round" security STN with low cost escorted passes?
And then we come to the Pilots......you know the peeps you ridiculed in your post because you thourght they should do their briefing in 45 minutes?
I saw the Captain (admittedly an actor) not only say that this was an issue but also said that MOL was a bully on national TV.
So FR has no safety issues......well yes they haven't crashed on take off because of this but with all due respect ATS what would you know about the safety issues the Pilots may face at this critical time.....most ASR's are not run by the CC unless their input is needed.
Also according to you FR has no safety issues whatsoever......rubbish! Every airline has safety issues and the reporting of these is how we improve practice. Have you looked into whatever safety reporting system FR has recently? If so and there still are no issues whatsoever reported then the bullying described by the FR captain is working very well......Peeps scared to make reports means no safety issues......well done MOL
Am I right in thinking you are FR CC? If not then I'm probably not talking to the right person. However assuming that you are as your post indicates this.....
Firstly I would never fly FR. That's not because of any personal experience it's because I have "rescued" far to many pax who have been victim to the lack of customer service experience.....you know the ones MOL leaves stranded in the middle of nowhere when the plane is not in the right place for whatever reason he quotes. Those would be families with young children or traveling with elderly rels etc.....the vulnerable pax he so easily exploits.
Great for any other airline who does the so called "rescue" a.k.a basic customer service because we then pick up the pax for future business
However all credit to MOL.....30 mins of free advertising courtesy of our licence fee's.....remind me to cancel my direct debit due to cr*p TV
He also knows his target pax according to the BBC.....the teenagers who don't read the T&C's and just want to get from A to B with nothing more than a condom in the hand luggage. My Godson is one of them
However back in the real world of loco aviation can I just ask a few questions of a fellow CC:
- Is it true FR don't allow pax to bring food/drink on board? If so then it's quite easy to earn £320 commision on your £4.50 a throw sandwich.
- Am I right in thinking that despite your post re how much you could earn for 30 hours you don't actually get a basic salary?
- You pay for the privilidge of being trained to the FR (I think also ICAO) safety standards not to mention your uniform as well? Err didn't pay for my training as this is not an optional extra.
Tell me ATS....do your CC still fall asleep on duty because they are so knackered by their roster pattens they wouldn't even notice a safety problem when it is right under their nose?
Are FR still "getting round" security STN with low cost escorted passes?
And then we come to the Pilots......you know the peeps you ridiculed in your post because you thourght they should do their briefing in 45 minutes?
I saw the Captain (admittedly an actor) not only say that this was an issue but also said that MOL was a bully on national TV.
So FR has no safety issues......well yes they haven't crashed on take off because of this but with all due respect ATS what would you know about the safety issues the Pilots may face at this critical time.....most ASR's are not run by the CC unless their input is needed.
Also according to you FR has no safety issues whatsoever......rubbish! Every airline has safety issues and the reporting of these is how we improve practice. Have you looked into whatever safety reporting system FR has recently? If so and there still are no issues whatsoever reported then the bullying described by the FR captain is working very well......Peeps scared to make reports means no safety issues......well done MOL
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I wonder why they try to create such an unpleasant atmosphere? Cheap is ok and I can accept not getting any frills, but I have had such unpleasant experiences from this airline that their bad attitude can only be a matter of policy. I do not admire someone like this man, who is very much a type, who actually seems to propagate this horrible negative feeling. I have seen this arrogance before from high flying companies and they always fail eventually.
I avoid flying with them totally. I have paid more money to have a better travelling experience and enjoyed doing so.
I avoid flying with them totally. I have paid more money to have a better travelling experience and enjoyed doing so.
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You generate the unpleasant atmosphere.
Stick to the rules and you won't have a problem.
The unpleasantness starts when you try to bring 2 or 3 bags in to the cabin: it starts when you turn up and have a check in bag that weighs 34Kgs.
There is no unpleasantness on board unless you assault / harass / intimidate the cabin crew: and then it occurs in the same way every way airline responds.
Stick to the rules and you won't have a problem.
The unpleasantness starts when you try to bring 2 or 3 bags in to the cabin: it starts when you turn up and have a check in bag that weighs 34Kgs.
There is no unpleasantness on board unless you assault / harass / intimidate the cabin crew: and then it occurs in the same way every way airline responds.
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The documentary was just that, a documentary. Probably not aimed at the people who frequent forums like this.
I thought it just presented facts. MOL was made to look silly as his argument about unedited interviews was shot down.
As was said by someone else, It would have been better to do a documentary about the way LOCO airlines, not just FR, but mainly FR, have driven down wages and conditions throughout the industry.
Handling agents, Airports, and all associated business' are constantly being pushed toward the bottom line and CS goes out of the window.
Hat off to the CEO at MAN who insisted that they were not prepared to 'Prostitute' themselves to FR. Also Airbus, for insisting that they would not sell to O'Leary planes at any cost.
It's depressing that the public have been conditioned to accept the bottom of the barrel as the norm.
There is no doubt that FR have made a success of the business model. Nothing in that means I have to like them or fly with them. I don't, I won't.
The only other observation I would make is that the Daily Mail readers moaning about their license fee should really get a grip. However, that's another discussion altogether.
I thought it just presented facts. MOL was made to look silly as his argument about unedited interviews was shot down.
As was said by someone else, It would have been better to do a documentary about the way LOCO airlines, not just FR, but mainly FR, have driven down wages and conditions throughout the industry.
Handling agents, Airports, and all associated business' are constantly being pushed toward the bottom line and CS goes out of the window.
Hat off to the CEO at MAN who insisted that they were not prepared to 'Prostitute' themselves to FR. Also Airbus, for insisting that they would not sell to O'Leary planes at any cost.
It's depressing that the public have been conditioned to accept the bottom of the barrel as the norm.
There is no doubt that FR have made a success of the business model. Nothing in that means I have to like them or fly with them. I don't, I won't.
The only other observation I would make is that the Daily Mail readers moaning about their license fee should really get a grip. However, that's another discussion altogether.
Also Airbus, for insisting that they would not sell to O'Leary planes at any cost.
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So, a business makes that makes money for it's shareholders, employs lots of people (both directly and indirectly), provides a service that seems popular etc. etc. etc justifies 30 minutes of 'investigative' BBC airtime at licence payer expense.
Just watched the uncut version of the interview, MOL did him up like a kipper.
TTFN
Just watched the uncut version of the interview, MOL did him up like a kipper.
TTFN
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Maybe you want easyjet crew food and your flight pay taxed and NI'd?
We, as UK taxpayers, shouldn't subsidise other workers who are attempting to circumvent the system and results in forcing us ALL to pay more tax in the long run.
Back to the topic specifically. I have a dislike for O'Leary as a person and detest his attitude and people skills. I suspect I would never get sick of hitting him over the head with a baseball bat. But I respect that he has made a successful business. I also agree with him that there are no hidden charges with his airline. You may not like paying them, especially if you haven't exercised diligence when you make your booking, but you have a choice to book with someone else if you don't like it or the Ryanair terms and conditions.
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I thought he said that Airbus was the superior product and worth the extra money.
Ultimately he just setting out his stall with a negotiating position because lets face it he would love to be the guy who brought and sold 200plus Airbus to FR over a 10 year period.
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The Real Slim Shady
Unexpected aggressive reply from what I was hoping was a pretty calmly put argument - even if you don't agree with it...
Personally I would far prefer to work for a different airline on less pay than to have to work for Ryanair. I haven't, however, met many people who can honestly say that if there were other jobs around they wouldn't leave flying for Ryanair a very long last. It's easy to have a rant at Ryanair pilots, and I have done so in the past, but if you would choose to be employed by Ryanair (or Brookfield's, whoever you are employed by) over many of the other UK carriers then you are not in a majority, form what I have gathered from knowing a not insignificant number of RYR flight crew. Personally, unless my airline gets 777's and starts flying to the Seychelles, I'm not going to say it's my perfect job. Then again who says it is (apart from the people who fly 777's to the Seychelles)?
My flight pay is taxed, and NI'd, by law however I have the security of a salary if I don't fly for some reason one month. But my job, like yours, is in no way secure. We don't work in a secure industry. From what I understand (and I may understand wrongly), the RYR freeze on UK bases that is on at the moment doesn't endear you position to security either. If you are a contract pilot, should anything happen, you could be replaced by someone else at the drop of a hat. If you are on a Ryanair contract, I believe that the Brookfields guys are actually on better T&C's (from talking to your company pilots) to you - so much for any reward for loyalty to your company. It's true that BA, bmi, Virgin and Thomson pilots aren't secure like most in most UK airlines, but they would most likely get some notice before they were told not to come to work again.
JayPee28bpr
Sorry, I agree with all your points, and I know that higher prices wouldn't necessarily lead to better T&C's, but my point was (in fact, has just become!) that the general public is leading the degradation of T&C's by expecting lower fares. As I said, you can't fly a 737 to Dublin for 6 quid a head, and while it wouldn't reverse it, it would certainly help to ease the squeeze! Your company loses money, they take it out on you...sure it sounds familiar to you too...
Unexpected aggressive reply from what I was hoping was a pretty calmly put argument - even if you don't agree with it...
Personally I would far prefer to work for a different airline on less pay than to have to work for Ryanair. I haven't, however, met many people who can honestly say that if there were other jobs around they wouldn't leave flying for Ryanair a very long last. It's easy to have a rant at Ryanair pilots, and I have done so in the past, but if you would choose to be employed by Ryanair (or Brookfield's, whoever you are employed by) over many of the other UK carriers then you are not in a majority, form what I have gathered from knowing a not insignificant number of RYR flight crew. Personally, unless my airline gets 777's and starts flying to the Seychelles, I'm not going to say it's my perfect job. Then again who says it is (apart from the people who fly 777's to the Seychelles)?
My flight pay is taxed, and NI'd, by law however I have the security of a salary if I don't fly for some reason one month. But my job, like yours, is in no way secure. We don't work in a secure industry. From what I understand (and I may understand wrongly), the RYR freeze on UK bases that is on at the moment doesn't endear you position to security either. If you are a contract pilot, should anything happen, you could be replaced by someone else at the drop of a hat. If you are on a Ryanair contract, I believe that the Brookfields guys are actually on better T&C's (from talking to your company pilots) to you - so much for any reward for loyalty to your company. It's true that BA, bmi, Virgin and Thomson pilots aren't secure like most in most UK airlines, but they would most likely get some notice before they were told not to come to work again.
JayPee28bpr
Sorry, I agree with all your points, and I know that higher prices wouldn't necessarily lead to better T&C's, but my point was (in fact, has just become!) that the general public is leading the degradation of T&C's by expecting lower fares. As I said, you can't fly a 737 to Dublin for 6 quid a head, and while it wouldn't reverse it, it would certainly help to ease the squeeze! Your company loses money, they take it out on you...sure it sounds familiar to you too...
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It's depressing that the public have been conditioned to accept the bottom of the barrel as the norm.
It's what's known (and has been for some time) as 'the invisible hand'.
To what extent does the price of a commodity play when you purchase something? Are you lucky enough to claim that it just doesn't matter? Or more to the point - what part does it play in the choices of most people?
It depends what you're buying, of course. For some, the destination is the journey, and the sullen-faced CC could pelt you with cow dung during a seven-hour delay and force you to listen to Peter Andre/Katie Price duets incessantly. But enough of BA [0]
When I was a starving student, I took the cheapest flights. What entitlement do I have to deny them the same option twenty years later? Can't poor people have fun too? If they are disappointed, e.g., getting stranded somewhere for 24 hours, that's fine - it happened to me as well. I feel sorry for impecunious families placed in this situation, and I'm grateful that my parents never took us anywhere without there being a Plan B.
So we turn to ethical considerations. Unless there is some sort of white-slaving operation going on, FR employees work for FR voluntarily - and, it seems, pay upfront for the privilege. Take a look at some of the politicians' interns who turned out nicely with a 1/1 from Oxbridge who earn the square root of naff all, or law graduates driving cabs. I don't pity people who take challenging and unrewarding jobs. It's the destination, not the journey.
I'd not fly FR purely because those days are behind me, and I like to have every thing done with a minimum of fuss. O'Leary has struck on a brilliant niche - the pimplies don't care because they'll be going on the lash, whereas fogies like I will have a staycation because the standards on the legacies are dropping.
SO
[0] yes, I was joking. What's an SLF thread without a go at BA?
It's what's known (and has been for some time) as 'the invisible hand'.
To what extent does the price of a commodity play when you purchase something? Are you lucky enough to claim that it just doesn't matter? Or more to the point - what part does it play in the choices of most people?
It depends what you're buying, of course. For some, the destination is the journey, and the sullen-faced CC could pelt you with cow dung during a seven-hour delay and force you to listen to Peter Andre/Katie Price duets incessantly. But enough of BA
[0]When I was a starving student, I took the cheapest flights. What entitlement do I have to deny them the same option twenty years later? Can't poor people have fun too? If they are disappointed, e.g., getting stranded somewhere for 24 hours, that's fine - it happened to me as well. I feel sorry for impecunious families placed in this situation, and I'm grateful that my parents never took us anywhere without there being a Plan B.
So we turn to ethical considerations. Unless there is some sort of white-slaving operation going on, FR employees work for FR voluntarily - and, it seems, pay upfront for the privilege. Take a look at some of the politicians' interns who turned out nicely with a 1/1 from Oxbridge who earn the square root of naff all, or law graduates driving cabs. I don't pity people who take challenging and unrewarding jobs. It's the destination, not the journey.
I'd not fly FR purely because those days are behind me, and I like to have every thing done with a minimum of fuss. O'Leary has struck on a brilliant niche - the pimplies don't care because they'll be going on the lash, whereas fogies like I will have a staycation because the standards on the legacies are dropping.
SO
[0] yes, I was joking. What's an SLF thread without a go at BA?
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Ryanair will take close on 550 jets from the manufacturer by 2016.
That gives you some leverage as a buyer.
If you were buying 550 taxis you sure as hell wouldn't pay list for them.
That gives you some leverage as a buyer.
If you were buying 550 taxis you sure as hell wouldn't pay list for them.
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Oh dear lowcostdolly... may i respectfully suggest you re read your rather rubbish filled, journo like post (makes one wonder... are you a journo?)
But to answer your numerous questions.
Indeed I am, and a PU at that. Been with FR for a very long time. How about you, haven't seem to have noticed which LoCo carrier you work for.
So you have no personal experience flying with FR yet you believe a 2nd, 3rd and so on party. How exactly have you rescued these people? Have they by any chance been refused boarding for reasons like they were too late at the gate or didn't have the right documentation and so on? Of course they're going to say it was never their fault, but FR's!
Should you be CC as you claim to be, you would know very well that airlines do not cancel flights lightly. And it's not that easy to just "send another" airplane, it takes time and careful analysis.
How exactly is MOL exploiting these people? Is he holding a gun to their heads and threaten if they don't purchase flights, he will put a bullet through their eyes? Tut tut, very poor journalism on your part dear.
Next.
Please note that in 2006, the CC used to work on a 6 earlies, 2 off, 6 lates, 3 off pattern. It was a tough roster with every day flying as the company was in the process of recruiting and training, so we used to fly everyday, not even 1 stand by. My understanding was that some people simply couldn't cope with it (i don't know, i am not based in STN where the secret filming took place). Something escapes me i'm sure, but please do tell what happened, safety wise, when the programme was filmed.
Again, no clue what STN's like, i'm not based there. I'd assume that no way in hell, not with the SS (that's security staff) targeting everyone wearing a blue uniform. Have you ever been through security staff channel in STN? I have, once. Never again as long as i live and breathe!
First of all i haven't ridiculed anyone. What's a "peeps"? 
I have never, EVER heard a pilot complaining they do not have time to brief in 45 mins (apart from the alleged FR pilot who was interviewed). FYI report time is -60, but the company allows 15mins to park your car, go through the magic security gate and to the crew room. I also do not know any pilot who comes on duty bang on -45. They do come in early, they have a chat, a bit of socializing, brief... You know, normal people who do normal things at the place of work.
I might actually take offence now.. I am well aware of the most critical phases of the flight (take off and landing as i'm SURE you know). I might not know what happens in the F/D (that's Flight Deck) but i am prepared for anything that could possibly happen. I never had a veer of the runway but i had a rejected take off. You'd be amazed to find i actually remembered the drill, and so did the JU's! Oh wow!
And another bit of info for you dears. Our SAIR is run by both pilots and CC. And CC also participate and have their say to the LSRG. I'm sure you know what that means.
Safety issues... depends on the issue doesn't it? If i'm missing an infant seat belt, of course i'm not going to report it but write it in the CDLB for the engineers to know. Or simply call out an engineer to replace it.
I can assure you however that should a more serious safety related issue arise, it will be reported otherwise you're in trouble! It is our duty to report, isn't it? I for one do, don't fancy tea and biscuits but bring my own biscuits with the boss down the HQ in DUB.
Again, what is "peeps"? And who is scared to make reports? Did you know that if pilots do not report a safety issue, that means a huge breach of safety and not complying with the company requirements, they lose their jobs and possibly their license?
Now lowcostdolly, i've been around far too long to listen to whatever rumors, bad reviews, really poor journalism and so on (you did state that you never actually had any experience with FR, didn't you?). I don't have time for this. I suggest you do the same and don't jump on someone's throat before doing some research on where to cut first
Now, next time you're delivering your "excellent" customer service, make sure you tell your pax about our 1 million free seats
I am told you wear orange... I like Orange CC, we always have a good laugh in the staff bus to/from the terminal. I am sad to hear about some of them losing their jobs. I'll always feel for fellow CC, no matter what color the uniform is.
Lowcostdolly, should you, god forbids, ever lose your job, you could always take up a career in journalism!
But to answer your numerous questions.
Am I right in thinking you are FR CC?
Firstly I would never fly FR. That's not because of any personal experience it's because I have "rescued" far to many pax who have been victim to the lack of customer service experience.....you know the ones MOL leaves stranded in the middle of nowhere when the plane is not in the right place for whatever reason he quotes. Those would be families with young children or traveling with elderly rels etc.....the vulnerable pax he so easily exploits.
Should you be CC as you claim to be, you would know very well that airlines do not cancel flights lightly. And it's not that easy to just "send another" airplane, it takes time and careful analysis.
How exactly is MOL exploiting these people? Is he holding a gun to their heads and threaten if they don't purchase flights, he will put a bullet through their eyes? Tut tut, very poor journalism on your part dear.
Next.
- Is it true FR don't allow pax to bring food/drink on board? If so then it's quite easy to earn £320 commision on your £4.50 a throw sandwich.
- Am I right in thinking that despite your post re how much you could earn for 30 hours you don't actually get a basic salary?
- You pay for the privilidge of being trained to the FR (I think also ICAO) safety standards not to mention your uniform as well? Err didn't pay for my training as this is not an optional extra.
- That is utter BS. In fact it's a new one to me, never heard that one before. Please show me where you read/heard that (news, paper, link, whatever). Pax bring on board as much food and drink (if it's alcohol they can't drink it on board for safety reasons that have been discussed before) as they want. No one stops them to do so. They just need to organise it so it all fits in the cabin baggage (one piece of cabin baggage per person only). The way I earn my commission is very simple: I do 3 services instead of 2 when time permits, i also have an impeccable display on my duty free trolley, very pleasant to the eye, allowing the pax not only to see the items in the magazines but on the trolley too. I work hard you see, and that makes me money And FYI, the £4.50 may, or may not be affordable to pax, however i do not personally make the prices.
- Wrong. Ever so wrong. I get a basic of £800 plus, on top of that commission and on top of that sector pay. How many hours i've done this week? Let me see. 10hrs duty on Sun, 6hrs duty yesterday, and will make another 6 hrs tomorrow (stand by for me today thank you very much). That's 22hrs in ONE WEEK.
- Indeed i paid for my training, but it was such a long time ago i don't feel it at all (the money i paid that is). Thing is darling, i got half of the money back when i was a JU, after my first 6 months. The payment is a JU's allowance of £500. JU's still get it now they tell me. I never paid for my uniform. It was in the training costs. And guess what, i still get money back. We have a uniform allowance of £30/month. Good on you you haven't paid for your training, you very soon will
Tell me ATS....do your CC still fall asleep on duty because they are so knackered by their roster pattens they wouldn't even notice a safety problem when it is right under their nose?
Are FR still "getting round" security STN with low cost escorted passes?
And then we come to the Pilots......you know the peeps you ridiculed in your post because you thourght they should do their briefing in 45 minutes?
I have never, EVER heard a pilot complaining they do not have time to brief in 45 mins (apart from the alleged FR pilot who was interviewed). FYI report time is -60, but the company allows 15mins to park your car, go through the magic security gate and to the crew room. I also do not know any pilot who comes on duty bang on -45. They do come in early, they have a chat, a bit of socializing, brief... You know, normal people who do normal things at the place of work.
what would you know about the safety issues the Pilots may face at this critical time.....most ASR's are not run by the CC unless their input is needed.
And another bit of info for you dears. Our SAIR is run by both pilots and CC. And CC also participate and have their say to the LSRG. I'm sure you know what that means.
Also according to you FR has no safety issues whatsoever......rubbish! Every airline has safety issues and the reporting of these is how we improve practice. Have you looked into whatever safety reporting system FR has recently? If so and there still are no issues whatsoever reported then the bullying described by the FR captain is working very well......Peeps scared to make reports means no safety issues......well done MOL
I can assure you however that should a more serious safety related issue arise, it will be reported otherwise you're in trouble! It is our duty to report, isn't it? I for one do, don't fancy tea and biscuits but bring my own biscuits with the boss down the HQ in DUB.
Again, what is "peeps"? And who is scared to make reports? Did you know that if pilots do not report a safety issue, that means a huge breach of safety and not complying with the company requirements, they lose their jobs and possibly their license?
Now lowcostdolly, i've been around far too long to listen to whatever rumors, bad reviews, really poor journalism and so on (you did state that you never actually had any experience with FR, didn't you?). I don't have time for this. I suggest you do the same and don't jump on someone's throat before doing some research on where to cut first
Now, next time you're delivering your "excellent" customer service, make sure you tell your pax about our 1 million free seats
I am told you wear orange... I like Orange CC, we always have a good laugh in the staff bus to/from the terminal. I am sad to hear about some of them losing their jobs. I'll always feel for fellow CC, no matter what color the uniform is.
Lowcostdolly, should you, god forbids, ever lose your job, you could always take up a career in journalism!
Last edited by Abusing_the_sky; 13th Oct 2009 at 18:29. Reason: bit of info
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Personally I would far prefer to work for a different airline on less pay than to have to work for Ryanair
he security of a salary if I don't fly for some reason one month.
the RYR freeze on UK bases that is on at the moment
Rubbish about FR, more rubbish and as Michael says you all have agendas.
We do it better and cheaper than the company you work for.
We are happier and have better terms and conditions and we save on union fees.