Bumped from BA First in Beijing
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Despite all the 'commercial considerations' being highlighted by some here, I must say, bumping a First pax is a quick and sure way to destroy the BA business.
I would suggest the typical First pax is the type of person who either has a very high level position, or has a high disposable income. In either scenario, they are most certainly the type of client you do not want to lose. I still cannot believe BA bump from First, truly astonished.
As regards profitability, it is quite possible to make pretty much any business profitable in the short term, by sacrificing long established relationships built up over many years with premium clients, due to reductions in staffing and service levels. Short term, the managers at BA get their bonuses, shareholders get a return. Long term, in two years or less, BA will lose it's key premium customer base to competitors who are only too happy to oblige.
By this time of course, said BA managers will have 'jumped ship' to yet another business of which they have little understanding.
rsoman, your posts are like something from the MOL handbook. Just because it works at the budget end, it really doesn't mean it will work at BA, as anyone with any level of business acumen could tell you.
I would suggest the typical First pax is the type of person who either has a very high level position, or has a high disposable income. In either scenario, they are most certainly the type of client you do not want to lose. I still cannot believe BA bump from First, truly astonished.
As regards profitability, it is quite possible to make pretty much any business profitable in the short term, by sacrificing long established relationships built up over many years with premium clients, due to reductions in staffing and service levels. Short term, the managers at BA get their bonuses, shareholders get a return. Long term, in two years or less, BA will lose it's key premium customer base to competitors who are only too happy to oblige.
By this time of course, said BA managers will have 'jumped ship' to yet another business of which they have little understanding.
rsoman, your posts are like something from the MOL handbook. Just because it works at the budget end, it really doesn't mean it will work at BA, as anyone with any level of business acumen could tell you.
FX Guru
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Some one ought to send this thread to Willie.
We get an eloquent view from the frontline from apaddy and a frightening view from the paying (or 'not paying so much now') pax from final3.
Good stuff chaps.
We get an eloquent view from the frontline from apaddy and a frightening view from the paying (or 'not paying so much now') pax from final3.
Good stuff chaps.
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Angels
I hope someone does send this thread to WW and I hope that he can make the airline a first choice, once again.
As regulars on the forum will know, I have generally been a supporter of BA over the years and it saddens me to be placing business elsewhere, but the service in the last year has forced me elsewhere.
I shan't even make silver member this year, despite the low threshold of 400 points in the Med.
I hope someone does send this thread to WW and I hope that he can make the airline a first choice, once again.
As regulars on the forum will know, I have generally been a supporter of BA over the years and it saddens me to be placing business elsewhere, but the service in the last year has forced me elsewhere.
I shan't even make silver member this year, despite the low threshold of 400 points in the Med.
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With reference to the original experience being discussed, did BA not offer to accomodate you in Club and downgrade a passenger from that cabin.
Or was a half-day delay more preferable than the humiliation of not flying in F?
Or was a half-day delay more preferable than the humiliation of not flying in F?
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The poor harassed one and only BA rep on duty for a full 777, offered to downgrade a club pax, and chuck off an economy passenger, as all club boarding passes had already been issued, I would like to have seen that conversation 
The agent offered an acceptable alternative with LH via Munich which would get me home an hour earlier, and I was happy to accept, because;
a. I could have been that club passenger.
b. The poor girl was begging me to accept in order to avoid the forthcoming conflict, and I was happy to oblige and be home an hour earlier. LH is also a good product, so smiles all round.
They had already offloaded me because they gambled that I would accept a slightly more convenient flight.
Unfortunately during the heat of trying to sort out many problems, she misunderstood LH, and when I turned up to check in for the Munich flight two hours later it was actually full, as it was the Frankfurt flight which had space and had departed 30 mins earlier
Nothing else available 'cept my long BKK detour or another day in Beijing.
All of the above is beside the point, FIRST and CLUB pax on sectors which have one flight a day only, should not be in that position, whoever they are.
The agent offered an acceptable alternative with LH via Munich which would get me home an hour earlier, and I was happy to accept, because;
a. I could have been that club passenger.
b. The poor girl was begging me to accept in order to avoid the forthcoming conflict, and I was happy to oblige and be home an hour earlier. LH is also a good product, so smiles all round.
They had already offloaded me because they gambled that I would accept a slightly more convenient flight.
Unfortunately during the heat of trying to sort out many problems, she misunderstood LH, and when I turned up to check in for the Munich flight two hours later it was actually full, as it was the Frankfurt flight which had space and had departed 30 mins earlier
Nothing else available 'cept my long BKK detour or another day in Beijing.
All of the above is beside the point, FIRST and CLUB pax on sectors which have one flight a day only, should not be in that position, whoever they are.
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Fair enough.
I think BA are allowed to oversell F by a maximum of 1 on most routes. Club is a different story, but I am aware of it being oversold by up to 10 on occasion.
I appreciate that in F you should expect a guaranteed seat but you should also expect flexibility. The challenge of the airline is to manage these two contradictory (from its perspective) expectations so that it can run a profitable service. BA have obviously made the calculation thus
number of flights per day..........large number
number of flights where F is fully sold....small number
number of flights where F is oversold...tiny number
number of flights where F is oversold and everyone turns up...miniscule number
and therefore the loss of business arising from the final scenario is tiny. This could then be set against the potential loss of business from effectively not filling the F cabin on a regular basis.
I think BA are allowed to oversell F by a maximum of 1 on most routes. Club is a different story, but I am aware of it being oversold by up to 10 on occasion.
I appreciate that in F you should expect a guaranteed seat but you should also expect flexibility. The challenge of the airline is to manage these two contradictory (from its perspective) expectations so that it can run a profitable service. BA have obviously made the calculation thus
number of flights per day..........large number
number of flights where F is fully sold....small number
number of flights where F is oversold...tiny number
number of flights where F is oversold and everyone turns up...miniscule number
and therefore the loss of business arising from the final scenario is tiny. This could then be set against the potential loss of business from effectively not filling the F cabin on a regular basis.
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BahrainLad
Your line of thinking is illogical and commercially naive.
Bumping one person from F is not a potentially minscule impact, as these people are serial travellers and mingle with other F travellers.
Your thinking will provide a short term profit and a long term decline in sales - see Paxboy's comment above.
Your line of thinking is illogical and commercially naive.
Bumping one person from F is not a potentially minscule impact, as these people are serial travellers and mingle with other F travellers.
Your thinking will provide a short term profit and a long term decline in sales - see Paxboy's comment above.
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downgrade instead
Surely a more sensible service recovery for BA would have been to downgrade you to J....and if that ended up pushing further people down and a Y pax off then so be it. At least you'd have got home when you wanted.
Taking cover
cheers
FF
Taking cover
cheers
FF
Last edited by FormerFlyer; 28th Sep 2006 at 09:38. Reason: for the sheer hell of it!
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BahrainLad
Your line of thinking is illogical and commercially naive.
Bumping one person from F is not a potentially minscule impact, as these people are serial travellers and mingle with other F travellers.
Your thinking will provide a short term profit and a long term decline in sales - see Paxboy's comment above.
Your line of thinking is illogical and commercially naive.
Bumping one person from F is not a potentially minscule impact, as these people are serial travellers and mingle with other F travellers.
Your thinking will provide a short term profit and a long term decline in sales - see Paxboy's comment above.
And would you then like to tell me how many of them pay for their tickets?
And would you then like to tell me how many of them who don't pay for their tickets have influence on their corporations global travel policy?
And would you then like to tell me how many people they can influence (bearing in mind word-of-mouth advertising is only slightly more effective than mass-market brand advertising) with their bad experience with BA?
(Again, bearing in mind, this may have only happened to them once in their travel life)...
Essentially my argument is that "full fare passenger gets bumped from first class" makes a nice headline, but in the realms of real life, this is an isolated ocurrence that, whilst no doubt very upsetting to the individual involved, has very little impact on the commercial viability of the airlne.
However, if you can find another airline that doesn't overbook in F then I would be happy to discuss these matters further.
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Thread Starter
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Bahrainlad,
"Another airline which doesn't overbook in first" ? I know three for sure. SQ/CX/LH
And another point, I authorise the travel requests of 60 senior managers, and can take a decision directly affecting their choice of travel. Be sure about it. I probably sign off on up three quarters of a million pounds of air travel every year, some times more.
Fortunately for the airline, I am not juvenile enough to stick it too them as a result of this incident......but it still does not make their policy right.
While talking about juvenile management, I have to say that quite a lot of the airline management commenting here (you know who you are) could do with a maturity injection
"Another airline which doesn't overbook in first" ? I know three for sure. SQ/CX/LH
And another point, I authorise the travel requests of 60 senior managers, and can take a decision directly affecting their choice of travel. Be sure about it. I probably sign off on up three quarters of a million pounds of air travel every year, some times more.
Fortunately for the airline, I am not juvenile enough to stick it too them as a result of this incident......but it still does not make their policy right.
While talking about juvenile management, I have to say that quite a lot of the airline management commenting here (you know who you are) could do with a maturity injection
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I must admit, when BA crew report for flights we get a briefing sheet which indicated the booked load...very very rarely do I notice an over booking in First. Occassionally when a 13 F seater is subsituted for a 14 F seater (On the B777) you will have a single over booking, otherwise its usually only on the East Coast high frequency routes such as JFK/EWR/BOS/ORD etc which you will find a single overbooking...simply because of the high no show rate.
Now this by no means makes it acceptable but it would appear that BA never OB more than 1 Pax in First. They do however seem to OB about 5% in Club on occassion but this is not an accurate figure!
Now this by no means makes it acceptable but it would appear that BA never OB more than 1 Pax in First. They do however seem to OB about 5% in Club on occassion but this is not an accurate figure!
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paddy, maybe you have the answer, if there was an airframe change with a 13F instead of 14F. If that is true, perhaps if it had been explained, with a gesture of compensation attached, I would fully understand.
On your East Coast route overbooking, I would also think its not a huge deal, due to the alternative flights available within a few hours.
By the way, I am still waiting a response from BA on my original communication, even to acknowledge receipt
On your East Coast route overbooking, I would also think its not a huge deal, due to the alternative flights available within a few hours.
By the way, I am still waiting a response from BA on my original communication, even to acknowledge receipt
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Nonsense...commercially naive in what way?
I think that your last post illustrates your naievity quite nicely and I am not going to try and answer questions that are impossible, as the data do not exist.
Suffice it to say that rmac's last post offers some insight "I authorise the travel requests of 60 senior managers, and can take a decision directly affecting their choice of travel. Be sure about it. I probably sign off on up three quarters of a million pounds of air travel every year, some times more.
Basic marketing 101 teaches the student to attack the core business of others, whilst defending ones own core business and letting the peripheral customers, who are less profitable, go.
One breaks this golden rule at considerable risk.
I think that your last post illustrates your naievity quite nicely and I am not going to try and answer questions that are impossible, as the data do not exist.
Suffice it to say that rmac's last post offers some insight "I authorise the travel requests of 60 senior managers, and can take a decision directly affecting their choice of travel. Be sure about it. I probably sign off on up three quarters of a million pounds of air travel every year, some times more.
Basic marketing 101 teaches the student to attack the core business of others, whilst defending ones own core business and letting the peripheral customers, who are less profitable, go.
One breaks this golden rule at considerable risk.
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In which case I don't see your point, as the airline offered the downgrade and the pax declined it, under which circumstances I am sure the airline rep just wished to give the F class pax his preferred option.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 28th Sep 2006 at 11:59.
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Perhaps time was too tight in this case, but aren't downgrades (or being bumped off the flight in the case of Y pax) usually accomplished by finding volunteers prepared to fly in a lower class or on the following flight in exchange for a suitable number of $$$s.
On the rare occasions when I've seen this happen, it hasn't been difficult to find such volunteers. I appreciate that this isn't what rmac was looking for - but it could have removed the irritation of the two other customers.
On the rare occasions when I've seen this happen, it hasn't been difficult to find such volunteers. I appreciate that this isn't what rmac was looking for - but it could have removed the irritation of the two other customers.