Is this any way to treat a customer?
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Is this any way to treat a customer?
ManAtTheBack arrived at Heathrow T4 today to find all flights to Amsterdam and Paris cancelled, with the consequent chaos ensuing. The result was a lot of redirection from one queue to another. I am surprised that Amsterdam and Paris are unable to cope with snow (although Brussels apparently can).
However, that is not the point of this posting. After queuing up for 20 minutes at Big Airways’ customer services, I became aware that the elderly lady standing behind me was becoming distressed. Apparently she had been expecting a wheelchair from her drop off point but it had not arrived. She had been directed (by whom I do not know) to the customer service queue. I tried to speak to a Big Airways’ member of staff but was ignored. I then spoke to a BAA member of staff but was told that the lady was Big Airways’ responsibility. I tried again to speak to a Big Airways’ staff but was again ignored. The lady appeared to become more distressed, and asked me to help load her luggage onto a trolley. As I did so I asked the BAA staff member if she would help. She made it clear it was not her responsibility. As I tried to find a Big Airways’ member of staff she then disappeared.
If this is how the industry chooses to treat its customers, is it any surprise that authorities take more interest in passenger rights?
However, that is not the point of this posting. After queuing up for 20 minutes at Big Airways’ customer services, I became aware that the elderly lady standing behind me was becoming distressed. Apparently she had been expecting a wheelchair from her drop off point but it had not arrived. She had been directed (by whom I do not know) to the customer service queue. I tried to speak to a Big Airways’ member of staff but was ignored. I then spoke to a BAA member of staff but was told that the lady was Big Airways’ responsibility. I tried again to speak to a Big Airways’ staff but was again ignored. The lady appeared to become more distressed, and asked me to help load her luggage onto a trolley. As I did so I asked the BAA staff member if she would help. She made it clear it was not her responsibility. As I tried to find a Big Airways’ member of staff she then disappeared.
If this is how the industry chooses to treat its customers, is it any surprise that authorities take more interest in passenger rights?
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Manintheback
Firstly, let me applaud you for intervening on behalf of the lady in question, it was a caring act.
Secondly, let me say that I am appalled by the way the lady's needs were ignored, it could have been my mother who is in her 70s.
Unfortunately, the short haul air travel market is now cost driven, not service driven.
The people responsible for this are no other than us, the travelling public, who wish to buy low fares.
The emergence of Ryanair (in particular), but also easyJet and the others, has reformulated the business model for the whole market, which means that pax are now little more than numbers on a balance sheet and the customer experience reflects this.
In times of disruption, the new "lean and mean" airlines do not have enough people to deal with the problems ... I got dumped in Richmond, VA, at 10pm, a couple of years ago, when my flight was diverted due to weather and when I asked for assistance to find hotac (never been there before), the Delta agent pointed out the phone booths and said there should be a Yellow Pages with a hotel section. But then again, he was alone and dealing with FIVE diverted flights by himself.
Firstly, let me applaud you for intervening on behalf of the lady in question, it was a caring act.
Secondly, let me say that I am appalled by the way the lady's needs were ignored, it could have been my mother who is in her 70s.
Unfortunately, the short haul air travel market is now cost driven, not service driven.
The people responsible for this are no other than us, the travelling public, who wish to buy low fares.
The emergence of Ryanair (in particular), but also easyJet and the others, has reformulated the business model for the whole market, which means that pax are now little more than numbers on a balance sheet and the customer experience reflects this.
In times of disruption, the new "lean and mean" airlines do not have enough people to deal with the problems ... I got dumped in Richmond, VA, at 10pm, a couple of years ago, when my flight was diverted due to weather and when I asked for assistance to find hotac (never been there before), the Delta agent pointed out the phone booths and said there should be a Yellow Pages with a hotel section. But then again, he was alone and dealing with FIVE diverted flights by himself.
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I think by "Big Airways" you happen to mean BA? However, it doesn't matter a damn, because when disruption hits the fan, all airlines get thrown into all sorts of chaos - even more so, nowadays, because at the end of the day, it's all down to money!
1. Pax want to pay ever lower fares.
2. Airlines lose revenue and cut staff.
3. Airlines still lose revenue, re-negotiate contracts with suppliers (caterers, wheelchair operators etc)
Inevitably, service suffers as a result of the loss of revenue.
BTW, you don't say what you were doing at the Customer Service desk - waiting for refreshment vouchers and your two phone calls, I expect. If that's the case, that your waiting for your "EU Legislation Entitlement", then you can expect lengthy queues - no airline is going to employ extra staff to give these out willingly when the Railway Network, the Highways Agency, Transport for London etc doesn't have similar obligations!!!
......And, please save your breath referrring to "Why does Belgium not have the same problems as CDG or AMS?" It could be for any one of a number of reasons - the airports may not even be closed, just accepting fewer flights. No one at the airport would know, it's the local Air Traffic Control in AMS or CDG that decides who can, and who can't fly!
Having said all this, I agree that the sitiation is shoddy, and you shouldn't be treated this way - but then, as airline staff, it is also very unfair that we are put under this pressure as well!
2 short-haul flights cancelled = 290 passengers to be dealth with by 2 Customer Service desk staff! (.....and still the stupid s*ds expect to turn up at the same desk for a Hand Baggage Check In!!!)
Welcome to 2005's Airline World!!!
1. Pax want to pay ever lower fares.
2. Airlines lose revenue and cut staff.
3. Airlines still lose revenue, re-negotiate contracts with suppliers (caterers, wheelchair operators etc)
Inevitably, service suffers as a result of the loss of revenue.
BTW, you don't say what you were doing at the Customer Service desk - waiting for refreshment vouchers and your two phone calls, I expect. If that's the case, that your waiting for your "EU Legislation Entitlement", then you can expect lengthy queues - no airline is going to employ extra staff to give these out willingly when the Railway Network, the Highways Agency, Transport for London etc doesn't have similar obligations!!!
......And, please save your breath referrring to "Why does Belgium not have the same problems as CDG or AMS?" It could be for any one of a number of reasons - the airports may not even be closed, just accepting fewer flights. No one at the airport would know, it's the local Air Traffic Control in AMS or CDG that decides who can, and who can't fly!
Having said all this, I agree that the sitiation is shoddy, and you shouldn't be treated this way - but then, as airline staff, it is also very unfair that we are put under this pressure as well!
2 short-haul flights cancelled = 290 passengers to be dealth with by 2 Customer Service desk staff! (.....and still the stupid s*ds expect to turn up at the same desk for a Hand Baggage Check In!!!)
Welcome to 2005's Airline World!!!
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Having said all this, I agree that the sitiation is shoddy, and you shouldn't be treated this way - but then, as airline staff, it is also very unfair that we are put under this pressure as well!
******
I thought handling pressure was part of the job profile of an airline industry customer service staff? In this cases , someone was obviously in distress, was asking help for a genuine reason, and apparently still it does not qualify for "service" from people who were in "customer service".
Grouse against management policies may or may not be valid, but what has the poor passenger to do with it?
******
I thought handling pressure was part of the job profile of an airline industry customer service staff? In this cases , someone was obviously in distress, was asking help for a genuine reason, and apparently still it does not qualify for "service" from people who were in "customer service".
Grouse against management policies may or may not be valid, but what has the poor passenger to do with it?
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Bealine
I was in the queue to cancel my confirmed boarding card, as my travel plans had gone to pot. This would have allowed the Airline to reuse the seat for someone who had been passed around the queues for 8 hours after two days travelling from down under.
Secondly, I am not complaining about myself, as I am able to stand in queues, but about the treatment of someone more vulnerable.
Also the ticket I held (and perhaps the lady too) cost much more than the Ryanair and easyJet fares discussed.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was someone around to help when things go wrong?
I was in the queue to cancel my confirmed boarding card, as my travel plans had gone to pot. This would have allowed the Airline to reuse the seat for someone who had been passed around the queues for 8 hours after two days travelling from down under.
Secondly, I am not complaining about myself, as I am able to stand in queues, but about the treatment of someone more vulnerable.
Also the ticket I held (and perhaps the lady too) cost much more than the Ryanair and easyJet fares discussed.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was someone around to help when things go wrong?
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eal401
There are different grades of quality, e.g. a cheap car versus an expensive car, however both meet the required quality criteria for the product, but are very different in observable features. The quality criteria are ultimately set by the customers and their purchasing patterns.
In the airline world this applies too, e.g. Ryanair versus BA Club.
The issue with the short haul market is that few people are willing to pay for premium grade quality and the airlines are being responsive to market forces in reorienting their businesses for this brave new world.
Look at the Ryanair and easyJet financials for the past few years and compare those to the legacy carriers, then ask yourself what you would srtategy you would implement if you were the CEO of one of the latter.
In the past year or two, the legacy carriers have started to realise that they can operate as low cost carriers too, e.g. Aer Lingus, Swiss & Iberia (no free food or drink in economy.)
However, the major overhead for most legacy carriers is the cost per passenger kilometre of employing people.
Therefore, they scale back the work force, including ground staff and the grade of the quality of the product alters. This is fine for those buying on price and who are robust enough to look after themselves, who. However, it impacts on the vulnerable.
But ultimately who is reponsible for the situation?
It is those people who have made Ryanair and easyJet successful and that is the passengers.
The bottom line is that providing differentiation via enhanced grades of quality is a very expensive proposition and not compatible with adopting a low cost strategy, such as Ryanair adopts and which is driving the market response.
As a management consultant, I am a little surprised that you have not made this link.
BTW, I do not believe that there is any excuse for the situation that Manintheback encountered and he acted as a total gentleman in trying to assist. That situation was not about general levels of customer service, but rather supporting a vulnerable member of society.
There are different grades of quality, e.g. a cheap car versus an expensive car, however both meet the required quality criteria for the product, but are very different in observable features. The quality criteria are ultimately set by the customers and their purchasing patterns.
In the airline world this applies too, e.g. Ryanair versus BA Club.
The issue with the short haul market is that few people are willing to pay for premium grade quality and the airlines are being responsive to market forces in reorienting their businesses for this brave new world.
Look at the Ryanair and easyJet financials for the past few years and compare those to the legacy carriers, then ask yourself what you would srtategy you would implement if you were the CEO of one of the latter.
In the past year or two, the legacy carriers have started to realise that they can operate as low cost carriers too, e.g. Aer Lingus, Swiss & Iberia (no free food or drink in economy.)
However, the major overhead for most legacy carriers is the cost per passenger kilometre of employing people.
Therefore, they scale back the work force, including ground staff and the grade of the quality of the product alters. This is fine for those buying on price and who are robust enough to look after themselves, who. However, it impacts on the vulnerable.
But ultimately who is reponsible for the situation?
It is those people who have made Ryanair and easyJet successful and that is the passengers.
The bottom line is that providing differentiation via enhanced grades of quality is a very expensive proposition and not compatible with adopting a low cost strategy, such as Ryanair adopts and which is driving the market response.
As a management consultant, I am a little surprised that you have not made this link.
BTW, I do not believe that there is any excuse for the situation that Manintheback encountered and he acted as a total gentleman in trying to assist. That situation was not about general levels of customer service, but rather supporting a vulnerable member of society.
Paxing All Over The World
A concomitant thread just started in R&N, Airline delays rise - and some blame stressed workers, based on a USA report. Different country, same problem. When we have become used to one sort of life, another kind is not pleasant. For those of us that have been travelling with legacy carriers (and airports) for 40 years, the change is sharp.
I think that it will be another five years before we see how it is going to play out in Europe. However, the likely paths are few and clearly laid out.
I think that it will be another five years before we see how it is going to play out in Europe. However, the likely paths are few and clearly laid out.
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I thought handling pressure was part of the job profile of an airline industry customer service staff? In this cases , someone was obviously in distress, was asking help for a genuine reason, and apparently still it does not qualify for "service" from people who were in "customer service".
Grouse against management policies may or may not be valid, but what has the poor passenger to do with it?
Grouse against management policies may or may not be valid, but what has the poor passenger to do with it?
! That is not why any of us joined! Stress and pressure can be accepted when it's realistic.
The way we are being treated at the moment is atrocious - both by management and the passengers - at least 50% of whom are now rude, arrogant and obnoxious (compared to about 5% five years ago!)
If the situation doesn't improve, BA will shortly find itself with no front-line staff left at all - hundreds are handing in their notice weekly - and I will be joining them if the situation hasn't improved by Easter!!!
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Pressure? Of course airports are under pressure. It has always been so. I remember working in T3 at Heathrow years ago (Pam Am were still flying). During any sort of disruption - weather being the obvious one - the terminal would be heaving with delayed passengers. Customer Service agents had to stand on the baggage belts just to get away from the check-in desks.
My point is that customer service was pretty poor then and that was without low cost carriers (well, apart from Arthur Frommer and Laker that is). The only thing that has really changed is customer expectations, and airlines are victims of their own success in this respect.
Whilst I tolerate this myself as I benefit from cheaper fares, why do these low-cost carriers treat me in such a patronising way? I don't need to be told to hold the handrail when leaving the aircraft nor to be careful descending the steps. If they really cared, they wouldn't then cram me and everyone on the flight into one bus (cost savings again) and fling me intimately around with my fellow passengers like a tumble drier on the journey to the terminal!!
Bealine - if this kind of stress isn't why you joined, then why wait until Easter to leave? Your situation is exactly the challenge of front-line customer service - to turn situations around for the benefit of everyone. I never did understand the kind of logic you talk about. Why are you there at all if it is not to clear the way for your customers? The airlines do not owe you a living! You are selling your skills to them and whilst they still need your skills (and you perform well), you will have a job and a responsibility to the airline and your customers. How staff feel about it (I'm not talking about physical abuse here) is largely irrelevant!
My point is that customer service was pretty poor then and that was without low cost carriers (well, apart from Arthur Frommer and Laker that is). The only thing that has really changed is customer expectations, and airlines are victims of their own success in this respect.
Whilst I tolerate this myself as I benefit from cheaper fares, why do these low-cost carriers treat me in such a patronising way? I don't need to be told to hold the handrail when leaving the aircraft nor to be careful descending the steps. If they really cared, they wouldn't then cram me and everyone on the flight into one bus (cost savings again) and fling me intimately around with my fellow passengers like a tumble drier on the journey to the terminal!!
Bealine - if this kind of stress isn't why you joined, then why wait until Easter to leave? Your situation is exactly the challenge of front-line customer service - to turn situations around for the benefit of everyone. I never did understand the kind of logic you talk about. Why are you there at all if it is not to clear the way for your customers? The airlines do not owe you a living! You are selling your skills to them and whilst they still need your skills (and you perform well), you will have a job and a responsibility to the airline and your customers. How staff feel about it (I'm not talking about physical abuse here) is largely irrelevant!
Last edited by Dylsexlic; 4th Mar 2005 at 13:48.
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I don't need to be told to hold the handrail when leaving the aircraft nor to be careful descending the steps
How staff feel about it (I'm not talking about physical abuse here) is largely irrelevant!
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Well, Final 3 Greens,
Professional Customer Service staff will always keep their feelings to themselves whilst in the public eye. Things are different these days though, I grant you. People are far more prepared to wear their hearts on their sleeves. Is this appropriate, do you think?
How staff feel about it (I'm not talking about physical abuse here) is largely irrelevant!
That's got to be the dumbest statement I've read for a while - people's emotions determine, to a very great extent, how they perform.
That's got to be the dumbest statement I've read for a while - people's emotions determine, to a very great extent, how they perform.
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Professional Customer Service staff will always keep their feelings to themselves whilst in the public eye
As to people showing ther feelings more, well society is a fluid and dynamic thing and it changes all the time.
Is it appropriate? Well that depends on your value systems and cultural norms, from which you will make a judgement.
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When a few airlines were virtual monopolies in their respective markets, there used to be a time when for all intents and purposes Customer Service Agents were kings and queens. As competition has evolved, the situation has progressively changed to "customer is king". Unfortunately many of the former kings and queens seems to have a great reluctance in abdicating their earlier lofty positions!
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Man at the Back, you wait until they get you on the plane!
I has the displeasure on flying a 'Big Airways' flight from LHR to BKK recently and my diabetic meal hadn't been loaded, so I complained, to ad insult to injury they thought I was travelling on a staff ticket, which I wasnt I had paid full fare....and the contempt that I was treated with on this flight for daring to comlain was awful even once they realised what donkeys they'd been and that I was a full fare assenger..not even an apology
There was no excuse for treating a fellow colleague like that, let alone a full fare paying passenger!
x
I has the displeasure on flying a 'Big Airways' flight from LHR to BKK recently and my diabetic meal hadn't been loaded, so I complained, to ad insult to injury they thought I was travelling on a staff ticket, which I wasnt I had paid full fare....and the contempt that I was treated with on this flight for daring to comlain was awful even once they realised what donkeys they'd been and that I was a full fare assenger..not even an apology
There was no excuse for treating a fellow colleague like that, let alone a full fare paying passenger!
x
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quote
posted 4th March 2005 07:50
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Manintheback
Firstly, let me applaud you for intervening on behalf of the lady in question, it was a caring act.
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Thanks, but manattheback and I are different people - a little more care in choosing usernames may not go amiss next time.
posted 4th March 2005 07:50
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Manintheback
Firstly, let me applaud you for intervening on behalf of the lady in question, it was a caring act.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, but manattheback and I are different people - a little more care in choosing usernames may not go amiss next time.
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As ManINTheBack has pointed out, he and I (ManATTheBack are two different people.
On the point about competing with low cost carriers, BA and others heavily market their premium services, and at least on longhaul, generate a large part of their revenue from them. If they set themselves up as being premium, then this suggests a different approach to the low cost carriers.
On the point about competing with low cost carriers, BA and others heavily market their premium services, and at least on longhaul, generate a large part of their revenue from them. If they set themselves up as being premium, then this suggests a different approach to the low cost carriers.
Paxing All Over The World
ManAT You are correct but everyone now is trying to have it both ways. The boys in the City are dragging all companies to cut staff and customers want nothing but good service, which tends to require more staff!
Last summer BA hit the buffers and had to cancel flights due, almost soley, to lack of staff. I have no doubt that we will see more of this. The public have come to believe that everything may be infinitely reduced in price and maintained in quality. No, I am not arguning for the 1970s but we have met 'the crunch'.
Another, very simple example. A company that specialises in outdoor clothing and shoes. I have been buying their urban boots for some ten years. The last pair wore out and the catalogue proclaimed that the boots were still the same price and yet, somehow, improved. They are not. I will not bother you with the details but I shall never buy their boots again.
The real problem for pax at the moment is that all the carriers are doing the same thing. Even you are spending top money with them.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Last summer BA hit the buffers and had to cancel flights due, almost soley, to lack of staff. I have no doubt that we will see more of this. The public have come to believe that everything may be infinitely reduced in price and maintained in quality. No, I am not arguning for the 1970s but we have met 'the crunch'.
Another, very simple example. A company that specialises in outdoor clothing and shoes. I have been buying their urban boots for some ten years. The last pair wore out and the catalogue proclaimed that the boots were still the same price and yet, somehow, improved. They are not. I will not bother you with the details but I shall never buy their boots again.
The real problem for pax at the moment is that all the carriers are doing the same thing. Even you are spending top money with them.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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I am willing to spend more of my own (and yes, my employer's) money to get a better quality of service. I will not travel by Ryanair as I disagree with their customer service attitude. Others do, that is up to them.
The point is that when my employer sends me somewhere reasonably closeby, I have options of alternative airlines, the railways or the road network. Certainly, going to Brussels or Paris, the train is an attractive proposition.
For my own purposes, there is the option of staying at home.
I am not so naive as to expect to get it all for nothing. What I am looking for is a 'fair' combination of service and price. Those companies which come nearer get more of my (and my employer's) money. What most turns me away from any product or service is where the marketing blurb is so out of tune with the reality.
As a thought, some airlines operate in very low staff cost environments. However, they still manage to generate handsome losses. Cutting costs naturally has its limits. Quality has its cost but it has its benefits.
Finally, how much do airlines spend unnecessarily?
How much, for example, do they spend in sorting out mishandled baggage?
Cut the amount of mishandled baggage, save the costs of sorting it out and increase customer satisfaction.
(Sorry Paxboy, I'm getting idealistic again. We all know that losing bags just happens, it's nobodys fault, and nothing can be done about it)
The point is that when my employer sends me somewhere reasonably closeby, I have options of alternative airlines, the railways or the road network. Certainly, going to Brussels or Paris, the train is an attractive proposition.
For my own purposes, there is the option of staying at home.
I am not so naive as to expect to get it all for nothing. What I am looking for is a 'fair' combination of service and price. Those companies which come nearer get more of my (and my employer's) money. What most turns me away from any product or service is where the marketing blurb is so out of tune with the reality.
As a thought, some airlines operate in very low staff cost environments. However, they still manage to generate handsome losses. Cutting costs naturally has its limits. Quality has its cost but it has its benefits.
Finally, how much do airlines spend unnecessarily?
How much, for example, do they spend in sorting out mishandled baggage?
Cut the amount of mishandled baggage, save the costs of sorting it out and increase customer satisfaction.
(Sorry Paxboy, I'm getting idealistic again. We all know that losing bags just happens, it's nobodys fault, and nothing can be done about it)
Last edited by ManAtTheBack; 5th Mar 2005 at 16:27.
At the end of the day, as I've said before, air travel is too cheap...
I too have had experience of BA not loading a diabetic meal - and I was back in World Traveller. The cabin crew fell over themselves to produce a suitable meal, while full of apologies for what wasn't their fault. Part of this maybe that it was a Gatwick based crew, not LHR.........I do find that BA at LGW seem to try that bit harder.
Althugh BA aren't perfect, I've found them consistently better than the rest. But I still maintain the problem is that air travel has got too cheap....
I too have had experience of BA not loading a diabetic meal - and I was back in World Traveller. The cabin crew fell over themselves to produce a suitable meal, while full of apologies for what wasn't their fault. Part of this maybe that it was a Gatwick based crew, not LHR.........I do find that BA at LGW seem to try that bit harder.
Althugh BA aren't perfect, I've found them consistently better than the rest. But I still maintain the problem is that air travel has got too cheap....