Is this any way to treat a customer?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Manattheback
Apologies for getting your handle wrong - mea culpa!
A complicating issue is the positioning of the legacy airlines.
To expand, there are 3 generic business strategies....
1 - Low cost, as embodied by Ryanair
2- Focus on a sector, e.g. BA, AF et al
3 - Differentiated, e.g. Fractional ownership
The issue is that airlines in sector 2 then complicate matters by having premium classes and short and long haul services.
In reality, short haul is a low cost market, where the majority of pax have made it very clear by their buying patterns that they are happy with a basic service, so that's the busihess driver.
But there is a premium market segment that they try to cater for too.
On long haul, where firms like BA are truly low cost in Y, there is a very strong premium segment, so schemes like the Executive Club exist to try and keep market share.
This creates a problem of mixed messages for the legacy airlines, that the locos don't have.
A saner solution would be to revert to BEA and BOAC and treat short and long haul as being completely different products and in the long term, it seems to me that this is where are heading.
But companies like BA have all kinds of legacy agreements in place that constrain this, no doubt that was why Go was started as a greenfield op.
So we, the pax, experience mixed messages and services.
Apologies for getting your handle wrong - mea culpa!
A complicating issue is the positioning of the legacy airlines.
To expand, there are 3 generic business strategies....
1 - Low cost, as embodied by Ryanair
2- Focus on a sector, e.g. BA, AF et al
3 - Differentiated, e.g. Fractional ownership
The issue is that airlines in sector 2 then complicate matters by having premium classes and short and long haul services.
In reality, short haul is a low cost market, where the majority of pax have made it very clear by their buying patterns that they are happy with a basic service, so that's the busihess driver.
But there is a premium market segment that they try to cater for too.
On long haul, where firms like BA are truly low cost in Y, there is a very strong premium segment, so schemes like the Executive Club exist to try and keep market share.
This creates a problem of mixed messages for the legacy airlines, that the locos don't have.
A saner solution would be to revert to BEA and BOAC and treat short and long haul as being completely different products and in the long term, it seems to me that this is where are heading.
But companies like BA have all kinds of legacy agreements in place that constrain this, no doubt that was why Go was started as a greenfield op.
So we, the pax, experience mixed messages and services.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: london
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a very interesting topic.
It is clear from comments on this topic and some others, that certain airline staff firmly believe that flying passengers may be quite legitimately treated like sh*te, as it is the passengers fault because the low cost airlines have become successful etc....so effectively if you are flying in economy tough luck. Dont expect staff to be courteous, or helpful in the slightest. Oh, and by the way, its quite OK for staff to treat you this way, apparently.
Then, and this is the bit that cracks me up, these very same airline staff come on this site and whinge about how passengers are becoming less friendly and how their job is awful, and so on. I mean, come on, what planet do you people live on? Treat your customers like sh*t and they will reciprocate. It is the same in all service industries. Wise up.
Recently I had first hand experience of a member of staff from the worlds favourite airline, where there were no queues, and no real pressure, and where i made polite reasonable requests/questions (simple trivial things not requiring financial or any real staff input), only to be met with a completely 'couldn't give a sh*t attitude by the staff member. To be fair to BA, usually the staff are good, but, as someone who really depends upon airlines, i really hope this 'attitude' does not become the norm in the aviation world.
As regards the passengers being to blame for the demise of standards, i do not agree at all. Many companies simply have policies, whereby the cheapest flight is always selected. Is this because the 'traditional' airlines fail to differentiate their product adequately to the people who make policy decisions?
I think the people who frequent this site who blame the punters for the standard of service they get should consider another service sector, hotels. Now in the UK there are many budget chains (travel inn etc..) who compete for business with what might be described as the 'traditional' hotels or 'legacy' hotels. But here is the difference, the non budget hotels are experts at differentiating the product or service they offer. When I check in to a 4 star big hotel chain, I dont expect poor treatment just because there is a budget hotel next door. In fact usually quite the opposite happens, the 4 star works even harder to demonstrate why it is worth staying in their rooms rather than the budget chains. Maybe the dimwits of the aviation industry I described at the start of this posting could learn something from that.
I think some people in the airlines use all of this on a personal level merely as an excuse to be sloppy in their work. Unfortunately, they do untold damage to the reputations of the majority hard working staff who do care
It is clear from comments on this topic and some others, that certain airline staff firmly believe that flying passengers may be quite legitimately treated like sh*te, as it is the passengers fault because the low cost airlines have become successful etc....so effectively if you are flying in economy tough luck. Dont expect staff to be courteous, or helpful in the slightest. Oh, and by the way, its quite OK for staff to treat you this way, apparently.
Then, and this is the bit that cracks me up, these very same airline staff come on this site and whinge about how passengers are becoming less friendly and how their job is awful, and so on. I mean, come on, what planet do you people live on? Treat your customers like sh*t and they will reciprocate. It is the same in all service industries. Wise up.
Recently I had first hand experience of a member of staff from the worlds favourite airline, where there were no queues, and no real pressure, and where i made polite reasonable requests/questions (simple trivial things not requiring financial or any real staff input), only to be met with a completely 'couldn't give a sh*t attitude by the staff member. To be fair to BA, usually the staff are good, but, as someone who really depends upon airlines, i really hope this 'attitude' does not become the norm in the aviation world.
As regards the passengers being to blame for the demise of standards, i do not agree at all. Many companies simply have policies, whereby the cheapest flight is always selected. Is this because the 'traditional' airlines fail to differentiate their product adequately to the people who make policy decisions?
I think the people who frequent this site who blame the punters for the standard of service they get should consider another service sector, hotels. Now in the UK there are many budget chains (travel inn etc..) who compete for business with what might be described as the 'traditional' hotels or 'legacy' hotels. But here is the difference, the non budget hotels are experts at differentiating the product or service they offer. When I check in to a 4 star big hotel chain, I dont expect poor treatment just because there is a budget hotel next door. In fact usually quite the opposite happens, the 4 star works even harder to demonstrate why it is worth staying in their rooms rather than the budget chains. Maybe the dimwits of the aviation industry I described at the start of this posting could learn something from that.
I think some people in the airlines use all of this on a personal level merely as an excuse to be sloppy in their work. Unfortunately, they do untold damage to the reputations of the majority hard working staff who do care
Paxing All Over The World
ManAT, I am glad that you realised the error of your ways, we can't be having any of that idealistic talk around here. 
Suitcases that are not misrouted? Hhm, might you mean that one company has control of all the stages and people from the moment they collect the bag from the pax, to the moment that they deliver at the destination? Hey, I think that you have something there - cancel all those outsourcing agreements. Oh and by the way, rely more on happy staff than on automation. 
I think that the mixed messages of the carriers that 10sec refers to is a very good point - because the staff are getting mixed messages too! I agree that the short haul is now going down the cheap path for the forseeable future and those that want and are able to pay for better, should really think about saving their money. The only advantage to being in the front of the a/c now is the rapid exit and being able to get a larger carry-on case in the cabin. I can see no other benefits, particularly as quiet lounge access is readily available at the big airports, for a very reasonable price.
The varied response that 10sec mentions is also typical of a company that is slowly losing touch with itself. In one particular field of business that I am involved with, people ask whether they should use the big nationals or the small independent suppliers and my reply is - it makes no differance. The differance is in the staff in the particualr shop that you go into. In this case, the staff at one BA desk in one airport on one shift will be great and the ones that follow five minutes later, will be ghastly. I again refer to the R&N thread Airline delays rise - and some blame stressed workers.
I also agree that the BEA/BOAC issue was fudged when they did their review post 9/11. Since the two comapnies were made to marry by the govt of the day, there is no doubt that a split is the best long term solution but no one wanted to bite that off at the same time as tackling the post 9/11 slim down.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Suitcases that are not misrouted? Hhm, might you mean that one company has control of all the stages and people from the moment they collect the bag from the pax, to the moment that they deliver at the destination? Hey, I think that you have something there - cancel all those outsourcing agreements. Oh and by the way, rely more on happy staff than on automation. I think that the mixed messages of the carriers that 10sec refers to is a very good point - because the staff are getting mixed messages too! I agree that the short haul is now going down the cheap path for the forseeable future and those that want and are able to pay for better, should really think about saving their money. The only advantage to being in the front of the a/c now is the rapid exit and being able to get a larger carry-on case in the cabin. I can see no other benefits, particularly as quiet lounge access is readily available at the big airports, for a very reasonable price.
The varied response that 10sec mentions is also typical of a company that is slowly losing touch with itself. In one particular field of business that I am involved with, people ask whether they should use the big nationals or the small independent suppliers and my reply is - it makes no differance. The differance is in the staff in the particualr shop that you go into. In this case, the staff at one BA desk in one airport on one shift will be great and the ones that follow five minutes later, will be ghastly. I again refer to the R&N thread Airline delays rise - and some blame stressed workers.
I also agree that the BEA/BOAC issue was fudged when they did their review post 9/11. Since the two comapnies were made to marry by the govt of the day, there is no doubt that a split is the best long term solution but no one wanted to bite that off at the same time as tackling the post 9/11 slim down.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.......For the Record (as I think it's me that is being referred to) I do not think it's acceptable for passengers to be treated like *****! Indeed, I sympathise with the OP's case.
I was merely trying to highlight the reason for it and to prepare you for the fact that worse is yet to come!!!
Rod Eddington will announce plans to be "Fit for Five" in July. This means an "end to outdated Union agreements" (in other words, further staff cuts in the front-line!!!)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...512492,00.html
I was merely trying to highlight the reason for it and to prepare you for the fact that worse is yet to come!!!
Rod Eddington will announce plans to be "Fit for Five" in July. This means an "end to outdated Union agreements" (in other words, further staff cuts in the front-line!!!)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...512492,00.html
Guest
Posts: n/a
Bealine
The question is, does BA have the will to tackle some of the business (rather than the airline) issues?
I'm thinking about the non sharp end management layers in particular.
But there are some working practice issues (not so much in you manor, but at the other place) that need to be looked at ... but hopefully with a bit more intelligence than with the ATR system introduction.
The question is, does BA have the will to tackle some of the business (rather than the airline) issues?
I'm thinking about the non sharp end management layers in particular.
But there are some working practice issues (not so much in you manor, but at the other place) that need to be looked at ... but hopefully with a bit more intelligence than with the ATR system introduction.
Paxing All Over The World
Bealine, it was in support of you that I mentioned the demoralisation of staff! Yes, we can all quote companies where some of the staff are providing service that the company can no longer actually give. In deed may not want to give.
I agree with the views that forthcoming edicts from Ed. will also be picking at the symptoms and not the root cause. In this, he is no differrent to 99% of other CEOs. I would wager that he knows all about the root cause but is unwilling to tackle it. The reason for that, I think, is that no CEO has the ability to dismantle an empire. Every person that is a CEO/MD has the mindset to Build Build Build. When the end time arrives, they cannot, literally, cannot see how to fix things by going back to the small side. So they pick away at the edges and, eventually, are left with a company that is neither fish nor fowl.
At this point, the stock market may lose faith or they get bought up and, in the old days, governments bailed them out. Also, the CEO gets booted out by the board. The new CEO pledges that they will rebuild the company and other such stuff. This will almost certainly fail because the board have hired yet another CEO that can only Build, rather than Reassemble. Another old company that has seen it's best days and is in a simlar position is Marks & Spencer. I cannot guess how close their final landing is but certainly within five years. The problem for M&S is that there are dozens of other supermarkets and clothing stores taking their share. For BA, the problem is less severe in that the (local) long haul competion is only VS but there are, of course, dozens of other long haul 'legacy' airlines all hoping to last long enough to be able to buy up the routes of those that have failed. It is a game made more complex by international regulation and national pride.
It is my contention that, if a CEO had the vision to reduce the company by a significant amount and, yes, lots of people lose jobs and so on, then it is possible for a new era. But, 99% of companies will follow the same 'arc' from inception, through expansion to domination and then collapse. Think of how a star finishes it's life by becoming a White Giant and then a Red Dwarf? Life moves in cycles and the truly painful part of life today, is that the cycles move very much faster than before and, thanks to electronics, we can see it happening more clearly.
Sorry about another lengthy entry but it is a fascinating subject and, having been involved in commerce and government for 27 years, it is interesting to watch humans repeating the mistakes of other humans. I, of course, continue to repeat the mistakes of other humans too!
I agree with the views that forthcoming edicts from Ed. will also be picking at the symptoms and not the root cause. In this, he is no differrent to 99% of other CEOs. I would wager that he knows all about the root cause but is unwilling to tackle it. The reason for that, I think, is that no CEO has the ability to dismantle an empire. Every person that is a CEO/MD has the mindset to Build Build Build. When the end time arrives, they cannot, literally, cannot see how to fix things by going back to the small side. So they pick away at the edges and, eventually, are left with a company that is neither fish nor fowl.
At this point, the stock market may lose faith or they get bought up and, in the old days, governments bailed them out. Also, the CEO gets booted out by the board. The new CEO pledges that they will rebuild the company and other such stuff. This will almost certainly fail because the board have hired yet another CEO that can only Build, rather than Reassemble. Another old company that has seen it's best days and is in a simlar position is Marks & Spencer. I cannot guess how close their final landing is but certainly within five years. The problem for M&S is that there are dozens of other supermarkets and clothing stores taking their share. For BA, the problem is less severe in that the (local) long haul competion is only VS but there are, of course, dozens of other long haul 'legacy' airlines all hoping to last long enough to be able to buy up the routes of those that have failed. It is a game made more complex by international regulation and national pride.
It is my contention that, if a CEO had the vision to reduce the company by a significant amount and, yes, lots of people lose jobs and so on, then it is possible for a new era. But, 99% of companies will follow the same 'arc' from inception, through expansion to domination and then collapse. Think of how a star finishes it's life by becoming a White Giant and then a Red Dwarf? Life moves in cycles and the truly painful part of life today, is that the cycles move very much faster than before and, thanks to electronics, we can see it happening more clearly.
Sorry about another lengthy entry but it is a fascinating subject and, having been involved in commerce and government for 27 years, it is interesting to watch humans repeating the mistakes of other humans. I, of course, continue to repeat the mistakes of other humans too!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the legacy carriers, and without wishing to be racist, the comment of the (apocryphal?) Irishman when asked for directions "If I were going there, I wouldn't start from here" seems relevant. However, they must
I think the threats being used by legacy carriers on their staff, with poor morale feeding back to the passengers will be counterproductive in the longer term, for anybody trying to offer premium services.
Bealine, I am sorry that you are considering your career. The industry needs a voice of reason amongst the chaos. However, you need to be supported by your employer, with a fair contract (in terms of respect etc) rather than being left to take the blame for its failings. On a happier note I saw an overworked BA customer service agent taking great trouble to assist a very confused elderly gentleman. Unfortunately, the negative messages sometimes overwhelm the positive ones.
I agree with F3G and Paxboy that BA's (and Lufthansa's etc) etc offer is confused. The terminal people may be dealing with a £19 european passenger one moment and a £000s Long Haul First Passenger the next. What does the sandwich given to me on a European Flight say about what I might receive if I choose to Long Haul First class.
One does not expect to see a Harrods or Fortnum and Mason in Peckham or an Aldi in Knightsbridge. Neither do I expect to see Fortnum's doing two for one on baked beans.
I note with interest LH and AF's experiments with dedicated premium services, although I have seen no figures on how well they are doing.
A split between short haul (low(ish) cost) and long haul (premium) seems a logical strategy for BA and a few others.
I think the threats being used by legacy carriers on their staff, with poor morale feeding back to the passengers will be counterproductive in the longer term, for anybody trying to offer premium services.
Bealine, I am sorry that you are considering your career. The industry needs a voice of reason amongst the chaos. However, you need to be supported by your employer, with a fair contract (in terms of respect etc) rather than being left to take the blame for its failings. On a happier note I saw an overworked BA customer service agent taking great trouble to assist a very confused elderly gentleman. Unfortunately, the negative messages sometimes overwhelm the positive ones.
I agree with F3G and Paxboy that BA's (and Lufthansa's etc) etc offer is confused. The terminal people may be dealing with a £19 european passenger one moment and a £000s Long Haul First Passenger the next. What does the sandwich given to me on a European Flight say about what I might receive if I choose to Long Haul First class.
One does not expect to see a Harrods or Fortnum and Mason in Peckham or an Aldi in Knightsbridge. Neither do I expect to see Fortnum's doing two for one on baked beans.
I note with interest LH and AF's experiments with dedicated premium services, although I have seen no figures on how well they are doing.
A split between short haul (low(ish) cost) and long haul (premium) seems a logical strategy for BA and a few others.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: somewhere
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
our station only provides short-haul travel but obviously there are connections onto where you need to be.
We (my colleagues) and I have always tried to help any passenger who we think may need the extra assistance even when they don't ask. (sometimes results in a quick 'do you think they'll b ok?' to the person next to you)
Recently due to cuts we have all been made redundant and although on t first day, many passengers may think we were unhelpful, we have tried to continue as we were because it's not the particular passenger in front of you at x time on x days fault.
the only time we see problems is when loco pax expect hotels and transport when an a/c is cancelled or delayed due to snow and fog. (not an awful lot you can do about it tho?) it's the i paid a £10 for my flight but i want x, x & x!
generally keeping pax up to date with information and where they stand on compensation etc may not keep them happy
but at least they know what to expect. (manchester passengers on a sun )
sorry just a humble csa's opinion
We (my colleagues) and I have always tried to help any passenger who we think may need the extra assistance even when they don't ask. (sometimes results in a quick 'do you think they'll b ok?' to the person next to you)
Recently due to cuts we have all been made redundant and although on t first day, many passengers may think we were unhelpful, we have tried to continue as we were because it's not the particular passenger in front of you at x time on x days fault.
the only time we see problems is when loco pax expect hotels and transport when an a/c is cancelled or delayed due to snow and fog. (not an awful lot you can do about it tho?) it's the i paid a £10 for my flight but i want x, x & x!
generally keeping pax up to date with information and where they stand on compensation etc may not keep them happy
but at least they know what to expect. (manchester passengers on a sun )sorry just a humble csa's opinion
