Just remember, jetstar doesn't guarantee a job upon completion of the cadet ship. If qantas has to get rid of a few hundred pilots in the coming years, the unions may make some sort of arrangement with Qantas management so that they can be given jobs at jetstar or given LWOP etc. If that's the case, jetstar will have to take on QF pilots before taking on jetstar cadet pilots.

How does Jetstar make a profit from Cadets?

Money for training goes to OAA/CAE/Swinburne, not Jetstar.

The 30-odd grand for an A320 type rating goes to CAE/OAA in the UK.

I've met Jetstar cadets from four or five courses, and from what I can tell about 90% complete the training and I haven't heard of one to completed not getting a job.

The former cadets now flying for Jetstar regularly complain about OAA/Swinburne being a bit disorganised, but seem generally happy with the deal they got.

If you were a young guy keen on the airlines and got offered a similar cadetship you'd be mad not to jump at the opportunity.

Some good points. Thanks for the answers.

I sort of figured it would still be cheaper for Jetstar to employ a cadet produced FO than a more experienced person who has been laid off by Qantas.

And peterc005 I have heard similar things with regards to the Uni side of things being a little disorganised but a generally positive vibe overall.

Cheers.

Ahhh peterc, so predictable.

Always a one sided affair with you. What's so bad about someone who goes out bush to start with?

And I believe Jetstar does make money off the cadet program.

morno

Modern aviation summed up in one line! The airline management mantra of today is 'get rid of the older, experienced guys; the new guy is cheaper'.

As someone once told me - "Accountants - they know the cost of everything & the value of nothing!"

I wonder if peterc005 has a financial interest in this cadetship because there is a lecturer at Swineburne University in the aviation area with the name Peter...

Have you not heard of the "facilitation fee" Peter? A rather large sum of money that goes to Jetstar. They also get paid less than a direct entry F/O when they first start.

Pete

Cadets are paid at the JFO rate, last time I checked that equates to a difference of $35,397 PA form the Level 1 direct entry FO rate. Multiply that by the current amount of JFO's (74) on the seniority list, this equates to a wage saving of $2,619,318 PA today! Every new JFO that is employed will push this figure up.

There are some big $$ to be saved by employing cadets over direct entry FO's, if Jetstar couldn't make money out of this scheme they wouldn't bother.

Ted

Hi Ted,

that's interesting.

Is there a limit to the ratio of JFOs to other pilots?

Are all of the JFOs cadets?

I guess they stay as JFOs until they have an ATPL (year or two?) ?

For a young guy coming thru the ranks working as a Jetstar JFO is still going to be a much better paid gig than doing small charter or instructing work.

Pete

No

Yes

Yes

This argument has been done to death!

Ted

peterc005. Jetstar doesn't have cadetships because there is a social case towards it...the thought process wasn't "we should develop an employment stream of cadets because having to build diversity & experience over a range of aircraft types, airspace, operators & passengers, is much too hard.".

It's not out of the goodness of Jetstar's heart. A quick look at Jetstar's social investment extends to Starkids (overseas child poverty) and Flying Start (community sponsorship). Not those poor poor wannabe pilots...

They found that there is a financial case towards having a cadetship!

I highly doubt it, the Swinburne Peter has a lot more class.

Agreed but when you are in your early 20s pay isn't everything. I catch up regularly with a Jetstar cadet friend. I'm jealous of his overseas holidays, his days off, his relative financial security, he's jealous of the flying and experience I'm getting in GA, including the PIC time which will make it easier for me to get a captain seat if/when I join an airline. The grass is always greener.

I have had this debate with Peter before. The Jetstar cadetship is a way to become an airline pilot. For SOME people it will be the best. It definitely will not be for all. If I was at the start of the journey I would still seriously consider all the other pathways available to see what suits me.

Each go their own...

Issue I have is 10 cadetships overall is what is to be competed. JQ8 starts March 3rd. JQ6 and 7 are PPL to CPL training atm. CAE are pushing them to finish at a faster rate, also threatening to kick some out at a training level ( requires JQ approval, but has happened to a few)
Will there be enough FO seats available to facilitate the 4-8 cadet attrition rate every 6 months with the last lost scheduled to finish CPL training by June 16.

A cadet ship is another way of the company having more wage control.

Cadet ship=wage control

Hi everyone,

I am 18 and am interested in applying to a Jetstar pilot cadet program. All I have ever wanted to do my entire life is be an airline pilot, and upon conversing with a few current and retired airline pilots, the general consensus they have given is that a cadetship is the way to go. I finished year 12 last year and received good grades in Maths, Physics and English, and am currently studying Aerospace Engineering and Business Management at university.

I have heard that a tertiary qualification is a good thing to have these days, but all I really want to do is fly and my thoughts are to go through a cadetship (if possible) and study once employed with an airline and gaining hours - because as I understand, hours are all that future employers will look at.

My question is: Is a cadetship a good way to go? or should I study now and wait until I am in my mid 20s and then start flying some other way :confused:

And please, I don't want to be attacked and insulted by a barrage of bitter and twisted old men because I am interested in cadetships :ugh: - I am after constructive comments/criticism...

Thanks :)

Finish Uni First
 

Hey Alex,

If it was me I'd finish that business/engineering degree first. It'll give you something to fall back on when Aviation hits a dreaded downturn.

HR

At least do another year in the degree. At worst it will give you more RPL when you join the cadetship (which Swinburne will give you). At best you will see what happens with the QF/JQ financial difficulties and you can stay there.

In terms of "should I do a cadetship?" google, search here etc. It's a personal choice. I personally had a bit of both and I would say, GA is great, for an 18 year old it is as fun and adventurous as taking a year off and backpacking Asia. As someone who was young getting into aviation. Enjoy the journey and the lifestyle, you don't have to worry about wives, kids, mortgages etc. for many years, have fun and make the most of the freedom. Trust me, ~20 on a 210 is very young in this country. Spend a few years kicking around GA and you will still get into airlines younger than many 'cadets' who are career changing.

*all advice is based on my circumstances and the current employment conditions. Stuff changes all the time and we are all an inch away from centrelink. Happy Flighting!

If you want to fly airlines do the Cadetship.
The airline industry is of such a low atm there is no realistic way of getting in with moderate flying experience ie. 1000tt 500mepic

Issue is with the Kadet system is your a 100k in debt and not guaranteed of any job after.
In light of current financial woes at QF and JQ I wouldn't be surprised if candidates from JQ8-10 getting the big black boot of cyaaaaa!

Moderate flying experience?! 1000TT - that's probably barely two years worth of work in the industry...

I was thinking the same thing. My understanding that 4k was about the 'moderate' level.

Haha fair enough
There is low
<500
Then moderate 500-3900
The more than moderate 3991-10000
Then experienced 10000+

The thought process is..

"Who cares about the industry. Its all about me! If I get into jetstar I don't have to spend my time with those GA peasants."

Qantas never offered a job guarantee either , they wanted to see performance.

Over 80 Junior First Officers in Jetstar now , understand the transition rate from cadetship to employment is similar to what the QF program was - around 95%

Virgin only offered a guarantee to raise the middle finger to the QF group cadet programs - micro program anyway - 8 per year.

Very little hope for the 3000 plus regional turboprop pilots in Australia to transition to any airline or FIFO jet job now, same for the RAAF pilots - all squadrons overstocked ATM.

Interesting times I would think in the boom years of 04 to 08 at least 500 and even up to 700 new jet jobs every year. Now less than 100.

No wonder most take a chance to slam cadet programs , always the same old catch cries , "no guarantee of job" , "you will never get a command", "rip off program" - all just no basis in reality.

Think a lot of turboprop dreamers just don't like the idea of a 19 yo, flying a new Airbus & earning over $80K plus , taking "their job"

Suck it up boys - the airlines can hire who they want - maybe many of the GA astronauts they were forced to hire in boom years were a disappointment, and that is why Jetstar began cadetships.

Dream on turboprop , dream on , one day you will be a "jet pilot" in your dreams it will come true

I found it interesting meeting some young folk recently who have given up their airline jobs (willingly) to get into GA. One going to a 210 bush job. There is life besides airlines.

There is absolutely no other reason (financial) as to why jetstar takes on cadets. They aren't doing anyone a favour.

"If you have the money, lets talk."

Jetstar Cadetscam...ship
 

Right On Deadcut.

I've noticed being in the industry for a couple decades that as GA eroded over the years that Cadetships looked more appealing as GA jobs were fewer/far between with more supply of fresh CPL/MECIR pilots than ever.

Its a shame though that people are willing to take advantage of such passionate people (i.e. pay for endo's, no job commitment, lower than minimum wage) this mindset of new pilots thinking of themselve (and rightly so) combined with managers trying to cope in tougher times or improve their bottom line has ensured this race to the bottom and unfortunately its only going to get worse.

Despite the Cadet benefiting in the short term. Long term this will erode said pilot and does the industry no favors:

Type in "pilots on foodstamps" and you will see what the situation is heading towards!

HR

FlyBoat North you hit the nail on the head! Those dreamers will always be the whiners..

It's not the contemporary cadets that give "cadets" a bad name.
As for the 1960/70's QF cadets, don't get me started.

Well, I just got word from CTC Aviation that Jetstar has put all cadetship programs "on hold," due to the issues within the Qantas Group...

I guess I'll be doing that degree after all.

Just another scare I think Mac - the old cry "you will never get a job"

Think of it this way

• 80 plus former cadets are now flying A320s with Jetstar
• Jetstar unlike Virgin still actually hired DE FOs in Australia during 2013 - about 50
• 22 cadets have just commenced ab-initio equal split between CTC & Oxford
• Jetstar Australia is currently hiring direct entry FOs for Jetstar Australia
• Jetstar still has significant aircraft orders
• Jetstar only tells its flying schools at the very last minute what the requirement for numbers are, the next ab-initio intake is scheduled for start of August this year
• You need to check your facts Jetstar wouldn't do anything right now given they have six months to evaluate developments
• Remember they have been subject of a good deal of "knocking" about this program - this will only make them more determined to make it work, and given 80 are checked to line. At this point in time they have the score on the board.

probably closer to " if i get the cadetship i can still support my family\ not be completely broke, while getting paid to fly"

but assume the completely selfish perspective if you like

I'm pretty happy with how my situation has ended up....

I got some G.A hours and went in with about 1700 hrs in 2011 as no direct entry Regional or Airline jobs were going at the time. I had interviews with QL (traineeship) and JQ (cadetship) and chose the latter.

I've got about 2000hrs on the bus and don't owe anyone a cent.... never did. But I got extremely lucky when I started.

I sincerely doubt there will be any further intakes in the next twelve months based on what was presented by our CEO last week. Sorry but I think that window may be closed for a while......

Sure you fly for Jetstar ! , and sure the CEO briefs junior FOs , and sure you have all this top secret information.

Actually don't know they took anyone with over 1000 hours on the Jetstar Advanced - that was the cut-off at Oxford. They wanted them as far away from an ATPL as possible - to keep on junior FO rates.

Seeing as though they just started 24 ab-initios as all this QF news was about to unfold (and they knew it all) you would think the future of jetstar cadetships are quite bright.

Noticed to , that apps for DE FOs are also open, expanding fleet etc.

But lets look at the bad side - it will close - there is no guarantee of a job - you never hold an ATPL & be a career FO

Enjoy "flying" your "airbus" mr 1700 hour man

The training providers have no say in how many get selected - Jetstar tells them

For example July 2013 - four commence , March 2014 11 commence at Oxford.

But be very very careful, it is all a big conspiracy, secret deals ,secret commissions - all very very risky

It's a huge risk pay $120K , then in 18 months only a 95% chance of transitioning directly to an A320 Job earning $100K within two years, permanent job. Tread very very carefully, so many tricks , secret business by the big corporations, all very hush hush

You would be much better off going GA , even doing an AV degree at one of the Unis that typically run these programs ranked at around 600 in the world (Ok UNSW is very much the exception). Get the training for 15% less than cadetship at best , then enter the wonderful world of GA, where you will be exploited and get to know the centrelink office very well. At best you will earn $50 K per year over ten years, then you will have the right to apply to Jetstar with competitive time - you will need 4000 TT.

Then out of the 1000s who have applications in maybe you will be one of the exceptionally lucky ones. 2000 turboprop pilots in Australia maybe 50 direct entry jet jobs this year.

Perhaps at best a 20% chance of pulling it off. At this time your cohorts who did the cadetship will have been Capts for five years and earned at least $1 mill more than you.

Go the GA way , must safer , less risk , have that life experience of periods of unemployment, no security. Then when you decide to walk away from it , realize your Av degree and 3000 TT pretty much qualify you for nothing in big wide world.

Don't go the cadet route , the big bad corporations are just all making "secret commissions" from you. No guarantee of job with cadetship only a 95% probability - GA is a much safer bet

Getting an airline Cadetship is a bit like winning the lotto. If you want an airline pilot career and get offered a cadetship, jump at it with both feet.

So I noticed the last post in this thread was made by Peter right. I proceeded to open the thread and yet again his retardation didn't fail to disappoint. Onya Peter, top bloke. :ok:

Like winning lotto? So cadetships are an idiot tax, gifted to a generally undeserving few at the expense of others..... All makes sense now.

Well they always have been like winning lotto, that is what the staff at BAe used to remind their QF cadets of when they ran the program back in the 90s. Also BTW the QF program was also entirely self funded, and again no guarantee of a job.

Look at it this way a Jetstar cadets will likely earn about $ 1.7 million in their first ten years employment

The same guy who didn't want to take the "huge risk" of a cadetship will earn likely about $400 K in their first ten years , likely punctuated by at least 25% of time spent unemployed, underemployed, working as a "slave" in at a GA flying school where you will be expected to work FT at a flying school , to be paid only for your two or three hours flying a week.

Doing laps of Australia on your credit card , and expected to be a "hang around" in a town for months before being considered for a job. In the meantime your high school buds have graduated Uni , in stable city jobs , buying houses, taking OS holidays.

So if you can actually stick this out for ten years , yes come on down winner, you now actually have the right to submit an application to Jetstar - you will need about 4000 tt to be competitive. But wait Oz is now feeling the GFC wash onto our shores , albeit a few years after, and there are now less than 100 direct entry spots per year.

Your application is now in the pile with a couple of thousand other turboprop dreamers, who are almost all likely to spend their entire careers turboprop dreaming.

But wait - you are lucky and actually pull it off. You feel so proud of yourself in your new Jetstar uniform earning your initial $90K base per year. But you bump into your old HS mate , you know the one who did the cadetship, actually had the discipline to prepare properly, had two cracks before he got it instead of enrolling in the first "You will have a jet job within five years - worst case" flying school he spotted on the drome. He is now a widebody Capt earning a base of three times your salary.

Go for GA maaateee - you will be such a winner.

If that was me Flyboat, I'd shake my friend/Captains hand and invite him to catch up with a beer that weekend. Over the beer(s) we'd discuss what we had been up to over the past 10 years. I'd tell him about the skydiving gig I got my start on. Then moving further up north to chase a charter gig. Flying a 210 over parts of the country tourists pay hundreds of dollars to see. Trying to time my jump to a twin operator at the perfect time. Moving from a baron to the conquest and loving the capabilities of that aircraft. I did my first trip across Australia from coast to coast, a truly memorable experience.

Oh did I mention the fishing, crabbing and camping I did over these years? Something that became a new passion for this city boy. Not to mention the backpackers rolling through town every dry season.

I made my way into a regional airline, finally back to a major city, and was able to offer my captain knowledge and experience I had forged over many hours. Most of the guys I flew with had trod the same path and we traded stories of owners, planes and 'local characters' from our time up North. I upgraded to Captain and spent a few years with a turboprop command before getting the call from Jetstar. I'd made it. A 10 year adventure one where I had made many new friends, experienced some of the most amazing sights and people this country has to offer and honed my flying skills and airmanship.

I asked my friend/Captain what he'd been doing the past 10 years? He'd flown an A320. Become a captain. He'd lived in Melbourne the whole time. He asked me to tell him more about those backpackers...

:ok:

Flyboat sets it all out very clearly the problem with a lot of (not all) the cadets coming through the Jetstar cadet scheme. Its all about how much money a pilot makes and how cool it is to be a jet pilot. Nothing about professionalism or trying to be the best pilot you can be. They write-off the GA experience as being beneath them without having the faintest idea how it works (suggest you read mcgrath 50's post).

Sums up nicely, what in some cadets mind, it is all about. It will be a long time before a Jetstar cadet gets to see a widebody command.