Talking to cadets on an almost daily basis it's true. Their whinging is getting outrageous.
The newbies don't even have PPLs yet and they are complaining.

They think everything will be given to them. I'm sure worse things will happen to them in their career than not getting their "paid for job" at Jetstar.

Flyboat North, you realise that when Qantas start retiring there 767 fleet this year, there are going to be a ****load of surplus Qantas pilots who probably will end up at jetstar on LWOP or be forced to take jobs at jetstar which is going to displace a lot of opportunities for these cadets. Keep in mind too, Qantas are going to be taking back some of the domestic routes that had been given to jetstar. Supposedly this new Qantaslink 717 operations is going to be replacing some jetstar flights too.

Jetstar Cadets going to QLINK
 

What ABSOLUTE bull****!

QLINK is not only completely separate from JQ but recruitment and retainment is also completely separate from QF mainline (its why some of the QF cadets from post 2010 were upset as they were being placed INTO Qlink) with no prospect of transferring to mainline.

QLINK of late is also moving away from cadets in favor of direct entry. they have shutdown the foundation course because of the "exemplary skill and attitude" demonstrated by its candidates. the traineeship course is also on hold but will be brought back when a suitable training provider is found!

HR

QLink doesn't need any more newbies who think they belong in a jet...

:suspect::ugh:

for any new hire, if joining the qf group jet fleet is in your sights you need your fukcin head read. esp if doing it on borrowed coin

jq mgmt dont know whats happening next week let alone in sept '15

And so the downfall of this industry begins.

Better they linger around QLink than GA!! If recent candidates are anything to go by, keep them the hell away from (me, and) single pilot ops! :eek:

Besides, surely wearing one of those QLink hats would suit the cadet ego more...

The worm turns!
 

Look FBN, I have labeled you a troll, but against my better judgement I'm at least going to try to enlighten you.

I did the hard yards in G/A, and I'm a Captain on one of those turboprops you so fervently despise. We have Cadets, and almost without exception they have proven themselves up to the task. What they lack in experience is usually compensated for by good training, intelligence and enthusiasm. Putting some aspects of their low experience aside, on a day to day basis, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two intake streams.

Make no mistake however, cadetships in Australia and for that matter overseas, have evolved for one reason and one reason only: To keep the supply and demand for pilots firmly in the favour of employers. If you believe otherwise, especially considering your profile as a 38 year old non airline pilot, then it just goes to shows how little you know about the true nature of airline recruitment here or anywhere else.

As a regional airline pilot, I am exactly were I choose to be today. Many other regional and G/A drivers aspire to bigger things, and the very best of luck to them. The reality for the foreseeable future will probably be that the real and employed pilots in this country may just have to sit tight for a while.

As for those currently undergoing cadet training, they may just find themselves without a job due to the pendulum swinging back to the employer. You do realise that until employed they have no rights under an industrial agreement? If you honestly believe that people who are essentially unemployed pilots with zero experience (cadets), will have a better chance of employment in the coming environment, then you are probably even more naive than your posts suggest.

Absolutely correct. There is no other reason in this part of the world.

Cadet ships = wage control

Basically for the company it's like fixing the interest rate on your home loan for 5 years

LCC love this as it fits their model by knowing as many fixed costs going forward.

Which then reduces their risk.

And we all know the financial risk in aviation is huge.

What are you on about? 2.25% is between 2-3% is it not? Some people...

Scare Factor : No guarantee of a job

The reality:


"Upon successful completion of the Jetstar Australia Pilot Cadet Program, you will be offered with a place in the conditional employee reserve with airline. There is the intention to employ successful cadet pilots however it is dependent on the position vacancy and industry performance at the time"

Yes you do actually have to pass the course, no real promises until then. It is just outrageous.

I think GA would be a much better bet , you can get your training for 20% less, then after ten years you will have at best a 20% chance of getting a jet job (more likely 5% right now), it is a much smarter way to go.

The big bad horrible company , imagine doing that to poor little student pilot, not guaranteeing them a job without insisting on performance standards being met.

The way they treat people is just atrociously, taking young naive year 12 leavers insisting on performance obligations being met before they even employ them, and then having the hide the then 19 year old only $80,000 whilst the goes through a mentored FO program for 18 months. Extra training , extra sims and only $80K - wouldn't get out of bed for it.

Then the poor cadet is only guaranteed at least $100k two years after being abused in such a heinous manner. It is sh*t money for a twenty year old - and it is all just a conspiracy by the evil corporation.

Lets get a few facts of GA straight:

I spent 13 months to get my CPL from 0 hours. Spent $71,000.
I spent about 6 months in GA earning the award of $36k, after that haven't earnt less than $60k.
I spent less than 4 years in GA before an interview at Jetstar came along.

Considering you would spend $135,000 in a cadetship to get a CPL versus roughly $228,000 you could earn in GA over those 4 years before heading to an airline, it's arguably better to go via GA where training costs less and leaves you in a better financial position over the same time period it takes to get into an airline.

CADETSHIP
2 years flight training
3 years as an FO $70k for 2 years, $110 for 1 year
Total earnt $250,000 (2 years x $70k, 1 year $110k)
Total costs $135,000 plus endorsement
Outcome $115,000

GA
1 year flight training
4 years in GA
Total earnt $228,000 (3.5 years x $60k, 0.5 years x $36k)
Total costs $71,000 plus endorsement
Outcome $157,000

You earn more via GA....can spend that $42k on a jetski and strippers.

FBN,
Weren't Jetstar in trouble with the ATO a few years back for trying to pay Australian Cadets in New Zealand dollar's or something along those lines?

Who would want to work for a company who's sole interest is to screw their pilots over as many ways as they can?

morno

Well if you reread your own post you said the MINIMUM was "probably" around one percent then stated numbers that would provide an absolute minimum of 2.25%. I'm not surprised those that support the cadetship stream have difficulty with numerical reasoning and reading comprehension.....

$70K for ATPL/CPL/IR don't think so - would say at least $100K , maybe $85K if you really want to scrimp.

Training for Jetstar Cadetship 1.5 years , lucky to complete all of above in much less I would think

Wages first couple of years for Jetstar cadets , most are grossing $85K and over , just take the basic and add 25% pretty conservative really.

Yes some people reach an airline after 4 years GA, great for them , the figure would be less than 5% , probably more likely 2% of GA entrants to airlines.

Really just the tag line from a flying school when you ask about career prospects "Worst case mate , five years to a Jet Job" .

Most joining first airline Jet/FO , very few under late twenties, or early thirties really , typically 3000 plus hours to be competitive, normally will take ten years in GA/Regional.

Think of it this way , when you transition to your Turboprop command the Cadet will be transitioning to an Airbus command, he is five years in Jetstar, you are five in GA

You join the airline four five years later, the cadet is almost looking at Widebody command, and is likely at least 1 million ahead of you in career earnings , he has had six figure salary for ten years, you have averaged $60K at best , and likely spent three years either unemployed or under employed.

Yes be a Cadet & Go Direct to the Jet

Not once did I say "minimum" and not once did I ever say it was "one percent". Anyone with even the most basic level of reading comprehension skills would clearly understand that by me saying....does not equate to me saying "acceptance is probably around one percent".

FBN, I've never heard so much dribble come out of one persons mouth before.

Your opinions are quite far from the facts.

3,000hrs in 10 years in GA? You're kidding right? I had over 5,000hrs after 10 years in GA and I barely went near 500hrs a year for most of it, mainly because of the type of operation I was doing.

I hope to god I never have to share a cockpit with you.

morno

When I put Flyboat North into my spell checker it keeps coming back with Troll. :eek:

The vast majority of GA careers have long periods in the "slave" system at flying schools , where you man the reception full time, only get paid for flying hours - how wonderful providing free labor to a business owner, or on the "casual list" at a charter company, or working for free tossing jumpers.

Long perods of unemployment , under employment , unpaid employment , seasonal employment, months wasted looking for jobs , traveling around Australia just for interviews.

Massive glut of people under 500 hours looking for work.

Leave school , get CPL/IR spend likely $90 K doing that , you are now at least 19, then go GA

70% of your cohort will have dropped out with two or three years, never got one flying job or not prepared to leave the city , don't fancy the reality of the work situation outlined above.

Those who in ten years have 4000 hours will have done exceptionally well, and you can now apply for an airline job. Sure there will be a rock star who has 7000 hours but they are maybe like one in 100.

But unlike others in their twenties you won't have bought a house , had decent holidays , or have many assets, lot's of missed relationship opportunities that will never come back (most partners won't move to the outback). Massive missed career opportunities in all sorts of other fields. You can never get those back , go back to uni at 28 to do a health/tech degree - it just won't happen. But hey that big break is "just around the corner"

GA wannabes need to think about the reality of how their life will be instead of swallowing the "jet in 5 five years" rubbish promulgated by the flying schools.

The speed of the responses here clearly indicates people who have plenty of time on their hands , unemployed likely

If getting fairly well paid for doing 600 hours per year with reasonable time off is the new definition of unemployed - then I'm guilty as charged.

You seem to have plenty of time to post on here. Tell us Flyboat, how many hours a year are you being paid to fly?

Flyboat, I am certain that you're sitting at home having a good old laugh at idiots like me who keep responding to you as you continue to take the piss. With that in mind however, for the benefit of the newbies who may actually believe you, we must press on beating our heads against this wall for the benefit of mankind.

You obviously know a little bit about the cadetships, and good on you for knowing what you've signed up for. I must admit, at the age of 38, a cadetship is a pretty intelligent way to go to fly a jet if that's what, between big your undoubtedly big watch and shiny (mint condition for a 1995 model) mx5, gets you off.

The rest of what you're saying however is exactly what you've convinced yourself to believe in order to continue on, blinkers on, through your cadetship - and that's what we all have a problem with. How can you possibly comment on GA having never been there? How can you tell others that financial gain is more important than life skill building and job satisfaction? Most importantly, how can you tell others your chosen path is better than theirs?

GA isn't a means to end. Had you spent any time there, you'll see there are careers in every part of GA. Do they suit you? Probably not. Can you tell others they don't suit them? Absolutely not.

Airlines are simply another part of the aviation industry, as is GA, as is freight, as is corporate aviation and on and on. Airlines attract certain types (not all!) usually due to extrinsic factors such as status, image and wealth. GA attracts others for more intrinsic reasons - the love of the grass roots aviation, the desire to teach, the desire to help and the desire to come home every night - exponentially different from what you believe which is simply a place for people who aren't intelligent or good enough to get into the airlines.

At the age of 38 I'd hope you'd be a bit wiser than what your posts are leading us to believe, I think deep down we all hope you're a 17 year old kid who logs onto pprune between rubbing one out and sticking photos of A380s on your facebook page. In which case, very well played sir.

Please continue to comment with the facts of cadetships, however don't again comment on things you know absolutely nothing about. People actually come here for help, and you're not helping.

For the record, I spent 5 years in GA before joining the airlines. I now fly a 737 for a big Australian airline and have done so successfully for several years. I have two degrees, one is a Master's. I am soon going back to GA for lifestyle and job satisfaction. I am 5 years younger than you. Explain that!

Not true. I've never worked in a company that hasn't paid the office rat. Most skydiving places pay something these days, the ones that don't have bigger issues than that and when I worked casual charter they were very good at sharing the hours relatively evenly and understanding you were juggling 2 jobs.

FBN, we get it you are really happy with your decision to "go direct to the jet". Good for you. Please do share your experience so the next generation can understand it.

BUT PLEASE, you clearly have no experience of the GA path so let those of us who have that experience share it as well without it being rubbished by a bloke who hasn't been there and done it!

Wow Bing you were one of the "special" people the single figure % who got to an jet job (FO) in five years from GA.

Sure you did , I believe you , we all believe you

And now you will leave a big 737 job , a big important job earning $150K to return to GA

Sure you would, that is so believable , people do that all the time because GA is so wonderful

Happy to be you $100 that you have never flown a Boeing 737 ,that you don't work for a "big major Australian airline", and that you do not hold two undergraduate degrees and a masters degrees.

Flyboast North, I hope you have an equally large chip on the other shoulder otherwise you would walk with a big limp.

Please appraise us poor plebs with your level of flying experience.

Well Bing wanted to meet up, very quick to send a PM was Bing

I am happy to do that but I think Bing does good talk , quite a smart mouth really, but not so good on the delivery side of the equation

Just an all round mega success guy, such a mega success guy that he has to tell everyone about it on a BB, real secure there !

Wow seems everyone who posts here just had a dream success story in GA, full employment , full pay - long way from reality as we all know

No I don't know. Perhaps you could tell us your experience as you seem to know so much about the reality of GA. What have you done? What are you doing now?

I'm surprised mods haven't deleted this guy.

Why guys?

I don't seem to recall any former cadets here bagging cadetships. This is telling.

FlyboatNorth's comments seem well-informed to me.

He/She/It has THE MOST uninformed view of GA I've ever heard!!!

Probably don't get any former cadets here because after not making it; they've left the industry.

Cadets in GA tend not to advertise their background for fear they will be tarred with the same brush as the likes of FBN! Rightly or wrongly its much easier to get a job in GA when you delete "cadet" off your resume. :ok:

Cards on the Table FBN
 

I'd be interested in FBN's past experience and current situation as it might add some weight to his otherwise slanted views...

HR

fbn

320 commands at 5 years is long gone.

10 years to a 330 command is self delusion.

when joyce and the money is gone and the qf boys come over for the mou spots it will be 15 years or more. just like its always ever been.

jq has stopped expanding. give it some thought

I've met more than twenty Jetstar cadets who passed thru OAA/CAE. They all seemed to say pretty much the same thing, that OAA was a bit disorganised, but that it worked out for them and they are happy with the end result.

These twenty Jetstar cadets were over at least four intakes and it seems like the course has a completion rate of more than 90%, which is much higher than alternatives.

I've also known Sharp and Rex cadets and their experience and outlook seems similar.

The impression is that because the cadetships are selective entry, 2% to 3% of applicants for Jetstar, they get the cream of the crop.

A few times I've spoken with cadets whose attitude and dedication stands out. Things like massive amounts of pre-preparation, motivation and work ethic.

Some of the ones I've seen were like this others couldn't give a rats ass.

You've just described all professional pilots mate!

Like the work ethic that has them calling in sick on early flights on a Sunday or the massive amounts of pre-preparation they do when going to Ballina:ugh:. Like Paul Kelly said "special people..... special people"

Peterc is another one who I would place in the same category as FBN. Has about 463 posts, 463 of them are praising Jetstar cadets, that's it.

Where's the real opinion from those in Jetstar who have to work with these cadets?

morno

News from CAE Oxford March 2015 is yet to be confirmed, but with the August 2014 applicants being transferred over to March 2015, if there is a March 15 course, competition will be far greater.

Peter,
can you tell me again how you've met several Jetstar cadets, they're all cream of the crop but complain about the training... Just in case I forget in three posts.


Regards :ok: