Kelpie, they put the price of their MECIR up by quite a bit when they got fee-help, surely it can't all be to cover the extra admin cost can it?

Peter,

I have said this before to you, some of the guys got a dream run through OAA, straight to England, pushed through line training and thanks to the union work on a ok contract. There are others who were one the same course who are over a year behind due to a backlog in the type rating and line training. There are also a number of guys who got booted from the course at OAA and while their motivation was a factor, very little was done to support them.

It can work but it's a gamble just like GA. There are great stories and terrible ones from both, GA costs a lot less and gives you some amazing life experience that the guys plugged straight into jets on the east coast don't get.

Nothing in the law, rules or guidelines to stop that and to be honest the government have openly said they are not interested as this will be self regulated by competition between training providers. So, whilst unfavourable and unfortunate they are not actually doing anything wrong. When we start seeing evidence of collusion and cartelling between the training providers that would be the time for the government to step in.

There are risks to both the student and training provider in offering VETFEE funding so I guess their way of managing that is to jack up the cost a little and allow something for the increased administrative burden.

More to follow

The kelpie

They went from charging a normal GA MECIR price to an OAA price. It didn't so much create competition as a duopoly but that could be because RVAC are the only GA flying school in Melbourne with fee-help at the moment. Hopefully competition will bring down the prices are more get approved.

I hope so McGrath.

OAA have a lot to answer for bringing European Flight Training costs (approx GBP75k for an integrated course) to Australia using an exchange rate of GBP0.36 to the AU$. The situation now is so different!!

Since then flight training costs have sky-rocketed because other schools could see that individuals were prepared to pay it - especially when using Government money!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

In the ab-initio program, Jetstar doesn't fund that much, most of it would be put on fee-help. Assuming you earn 70k+ you could pay that back in a few years easily.

Depending of course on where you are based and your other commitments.

Incorrect.

Once a cadet completes the an-initio course thus expending their entire FEEHELP they must do the Advanced element also which costs another $85k. Jet star finance this over six years but it is written in the bond agreement that Jetstar can increase this amount in its sole discretion.

So.....on a flexiline wage of approx $56k per annum you not only have to pay your 110k VETFEE debt off but you also have to pay $14k back to Jetstar each year.

$56k minus VETFEE repayments minus Jetstar repayments equals NOT MUCH LEFT!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

"Cadetship" makes this scheme seem legitimate. It is not a Cadetship, it is a scheme for a company to take advantage of prospective pilots. This company has no interest in the career of its victims.

Cadetship = the new Indentureship

Tradesmen are or were indentured. You or your guardian signed to say that you would work for a set period of time, usually four years, for apprentice wages. These wages were a percentage of tradesman wages and increased each year. In return for your indenture, the company provided everything, tools, work clothes and paid for the apprentice to attend trade school. At no time was the apprentice ever asked to put his hand in his pocket. The apprentice could not belong to a union or go on strike. He could not leave his employer nor could he be sacked without mutual agreement and sitting before a Government tribunal.
Airlines want it both ways. They want to treat their so called cadets as apprentices whilst making them pay for the privilege.

Over the past couple of years I've met about a dozen current or former Jetstar Cadets.

They all seems pretty enthusiastic and motivated.

The two complaints I heard were:

* OAA was a bit disorganised about the flying, and the cadets had to compensate for this by being a bit more motivated and pushing harder to get the training done.

* There was little or none contact between Jetstar and the cadets during the training.

Overall they were happy, although a couple thought the Virgin cadetship sounded better.

Cadetships are here to stay and will grow.

always honest
 

Yeah Pete,

They are going to tell a stranger that the path they took is going to cost them a fortune more than doing it by the more tried and tested way. They are also going to tell you that Jetstar is paying them way less than a direct entry FO and still have to pay off a huge debt. Or maybe they haven't realised yet that they have been taken advantage of. They will eventually though.

I assume they also let you know that in the Jetstar ranks they aren't very popular with alot of people for various reasons. The cadet that selected flaps up during a go around I suspect is a very popular guy. I have it from the horses mouth that cadets get extra sims because of the appalling stats they have on crap landings.

I'm trying to imagine the cockpit conversation between senior capt and cadet FO.

Capt "what do you do outside of flying young man/lady?"

FO "I Like playing xbox and checking my friends status updates on facebook"

Silence until TOD.

I have no problem with cadetships as long as they aren't designed as a revenue stream/cost saveing measure which this one clearly is.

I can't see how Jetstar could use the cadetships to raise revenue?

The money goes to CAE/OAA/Swinburne, not Jetstar.

Well, you just sound like a jaded GA pilot.

A couple of months ago I met four Jetstar cadets who had just finished their OAA training and were waiting for slots in the CAE A320 simulator in the UK. They went straight from Seminoles to the A320. This must be appalling to a GA pilot who might struggle for years making poor money in old planes, hoping for the chance in an airline.

If cadets are so good why dont they get paid what a direct entry FO gets?

Peter, are you really 48?

As I've said on another thread, Peter005 is the most inexperienced aviation 'expert' on these forums. His opinions are biased towards what involves his son. Just check out all of the RMIT threads.

I'd block him but I find it funny.

Excuse me peterc005, but aren't you the same gentleman who has already been sprung on another thread, making specious claims about the virtues of one of the training providers who benefit from these schemes?

I note no mention of the financial impost to these starry-eyed youngsters who are duped into this path to an airline.

Tell you what: I'll accept the existence of this as an alternative path to what many see as the ultimate goal, if you & others stop referring to it as a "cadetship." As has been pointed out in another post, the term implies a financial commitment on the part of the prospective employer, instead of the cost being entirely borne by the trainee. It's a fine piece of doublespeak which conceals the true nature of the arrangement, thereby seeking to legitimise it.

If the system had transparency and merit, those who promote it wouldn't need to misrepresent it.

I've met a dozen current and former Jetstar cadets.

None suggested that anything significant was misrepresented.

Any gripes they had are probably due to minor mismanagement, rather than misrepresentation.

My recollection was that 16 started the OAA course last year, and that 15 completed the training, and are now soon to start their A320 TR to fly for Jetstar.

Sounds like this is what they signed up for and pretty much what they got.

Peter,
You are a troll.
Myself and many others on here know who you really are, so if I was you I'd limit the crap you post. :rolleyes:
Mods!?

That's not the misrepresentation to which I referred, as I suspect you well know.

I'm talking about the simple, deliberate corruption of the English language, in order to make something appear to be what it's not.

If you or the illustrious employer can come up with a word which accurately describes this system of trainee-funded recruitment, your defence might have some weight. (Hint: "cadetship" ain't it.)
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ser_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ons/report.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...eply_small.gif

Even if jetstar aren't making money off them, they get a cheap source of pilots as they are able to pay them on the junior first officer salary for a couple of years (if what a poster a few pages back is correct. I still need to call the union to find out the real facts).

But the training for a jetstar first officer costs $180k+ once you factor in the type rating and accommodation costs. Then you start off on $56k as a junior first officer... Before you start having to pay the debt off...

I know if I had a business and invested $150k+, I would hope for a return much better than $56k in my first year even after repaying the loan cost.

I stand by what I posted.

The "cadetship" gives young pilots guided training and fast track into a career at Jetstar. My opinion is that this pretty much qualifies for the description of "cadetship".

The money goes to OAA and I can't see how how Jetstar are trying to take advantage of anyone.

From what I can see, the Jetstar cadetship seems to deliver pretty much what it promises.

Who I am is no big secret. If anyone wanted to know they just need to PM me.

Bump............

Have you ever looked at the eba's of every airline in Australia and compared a jetstar a320 junior first officer salary to the salary of pilots at every every other airline that fly jet aircraft? It is absolutely peanuts for a pilot of a jet aircraft.

If jetsar paid its cadet pilots on a level 1 first officer salary and after 12 months they could be promoted to a level 2 fo (like what happens to direct entry pilots), it would be reasonable, but sticking it out on a junior first officer salary for a couple of years before being promoted to a level 1 first officer salary is just screwing over cadet pilots big time.

If you look at cadetships they offer to people while they study at university, you will find that the company pays for the training... Well that's the way they do it for every cadetship I have ever heard of offered at university.

I wouldn't it be calling it a "cadetship", you are pretty much "buying a job".

Then you are being obtuse.
Only by the new, convenient interpretation of the word, apparently unique to the Brave New World of aviation in the 21st century.

Weasel words such as "guided training" and "fast track" only attempt to camouflage the program from what it really is: a means of placing the cheapest, least experienced pilots the law will allow as second-in-command of an airline jet. And doing so with no investment, financial or otherwise, in the welfare of that pilot. Instead, he or she is hit with an over-the-odds upfront cost, no guarantee of a job, and a substandard salary if that job does eventuate.

In that case I can only conclude that what you can see is deliberately obscured. That or, even less defensible, you are attempting to mislead. Whom, I don't know. But no-one here is buying it.

Virgin and in the past Qantas have also offered "cadetships". Very similar to the Jetstar Cadetship.

From memory, there were 1,000 applications for each Jetstar cadetship. Whatever you say they will continue to be popular.

And you continue to evade my original point, which was that the scheme is misrepresented by all its proponents, simply by giving it a misleading title.

You seem to be well-informed as to the numbers, and highly defensive of the worth of the concept.

One might even say, unusually so, given your rather tenuous connection to it, as merely the father of someone not even in the JQ/OAA program, but at RMIT instead.

Well if you knew as much about the scheme as you suggest you would know that the a320 endorsement is part of the course. At this stage there is no whiff of a job.

The employment offer comes later. You hope!!!

Regards how Jetstar make money. The devil is in the detail. The 85k (increased at Jetstar's discretion) for the advanced course is what the cadets owe Jetstar as the bond agreement is between Jetstar and the cadet. It just so happens that the figure that Jetstar pay Oxford to supply the advanced course including A320 endo is not 85k, it is much less!!!

More to follow

The kelpie

Virgin pays for your training, they pay you while you train, they pay for your accommodation.

Qantas cadetship you eventually become a second officer and earn the same income as the direct entry pilots (the way the jetstar cadetship should be). Sure, you have to pay for the cadetship like the jetstar cadetship, but at least qantas pay cadets at the same rates as direct entry pilots.

Jetstar does neither, you pay for your training, and start off on a junior first officer salary which is $30k less than a level 1 direct entry first officer (and that's before paying off the huge $150k+ training debt). It's not fair on the cadets at all.

'Quote of the Year' on another thread:

'It's no longer a case of, "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys"; now the monkeys bring their own peanuts'.

I still find peterc005's posts intriguing, especially regarding RMIT a little while ago, such as promoting that to possible instructors....

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...-training.html

Kelly I was thinking of the "Indian Indentureship"

Check it out here.

What is Indian Indenture Ship

I think the "cadetships" have a few similarities.

I can see the resemblance.

No company loan repayments until 3rd year.

Salary is base 58/60 first two years,then onto regular contract base at least 90K.

Add twenty % to base at least, third fourth years well over $100K - bye bye training debt

Don't believe call S Lutton at AFAP on 03 9928 5737,

The angst is the reality that right now there is very very little employment of Jet RPT FOs in Aust , almost certain to stay that way for long time.

Each cadet takes away one direct entry place.

Where do ADF pilots leaving services go ? Cobhams , FIFO - that would all be a pay drop wouldn't it. Any go direct to Middle East ?

I have asked this before with zero response from those spruiking the benefits if this "cadetship".

In order to be employed by Jetstar as anything other than a junior FO and therefore eligible to earn these $100k+ salaries, the pilot must hold an ATPL. The pilot must hold a minimum of 250 hours PIC or 500 ICUS, therefore, the cadet must be provided at least 500 hours ICUS in order to gain an ATPL. Is Jetstar doing this?

Not true : you move to the standard FO tables after you achieve an ATPL or two years whichever comes first.

So the maximum amount of time as a Junior FO is two years, and then you move to standard FO salary - CPL or ATPL. Again don't take my word for it call Simon Lutton from your own federation.

The "no command time" - career FO you will remain view on these cadetships is just a red herring. Qantas upgraded cadets , gave them command time , Jetstar has all those approvals - let's face they are Qantas. Rex is upgrading cadets, as has Qlink who still has Q cadets & people from their own traineeship.

So the "not enough command time" line is cute, but does not reflect reality.

The issue people have is one more cadet is one less direct entry place

Correct. Can someone remind me why there is a need for cadets?

Ok, where is that written? Can't see any reference in thier EBA. Although the one I found was 2008 and it may have been superseded. Please don't quote any flying school brochures because if it ain't in the employment contract then it isn't worth the glossy paper it's printed on.

This is purely a pay for a front seat scheme, not a cadetship. We are a few years behind the UK with these schemes but they are inevitable.

Not sure why you guys keep gloating about this?

Good question!

Anyone know?