@Damien1989 - I fly out of YMMB and in the past did some training with General Flying Services, which is now part of OAA/CAE.

Over the years I've met quite a few from this place, including a couple of ex-Swinburne OAA/CAE instructors I've flown with. Also meet and see people around at places like the AeroBar.

My older son runs an A320 Sim business. I have met a couple of groups of Jetstar cadets who have spent time in the sim prior to leaving for England for their A320 Type Ratings.

When the former cadets start at Jetstar they are on "flex contracts", which may mean fewer hours. Some buy time in the sim for extra A320 experience and to polish their skills and procedures.

One of the A320 Sim instructors is a recent Jetstar cadet who is now a First Officer on the A320. He is very happy with how things turned out. His level of professionalism, knowledge and attitude are very impressive.

Back to my earlier post, I don't recall hearing any former Jetstar cadet here on Pprune complaining?

Over a day and 19 posts later and still waiting to see what flying experience/job Flyboast North has. Perhaps he/she is out there busy doing some solo consolidation after his/her first solo?

The other side of that coin is you don't see any cadets on here saying how good it is either.

If they're happy with the course is there really a reason to go on here and discuss it? People are far more likely to go online to complain than they are to praise. They're probably getting on with their careers at J*.

As a matter of fact I did come across someone on here about 2 years ago who was in the middle of completing the course and was answering questions. He hadn't experienced any significant problems with it at all.

Ah now I understand why you think the flex contracts at Jetstar are so well paid! The employment conditions at that sim make Jetstar look like the golden age of legacy conditions.

Because all cadets sign a social networking agreement when they join the course. It's a violation of contract. The Qantas Cadets were not even meant to post picture of themselves in uniform or aircraft pictures that identified the registration of their aircraft on social networks. Jetstars wasn't as strict but strict enough to discourage people from posting I'd say.

Also as I mentioned many people like their anonymity on here and there aren't that many cadets around. It doesn't take long to figure out who one might be if they did post. Again they may not want that to happen, particularly if they are bagging the course.

mcgrath50 im not sure where you're getting this social networking agreement thing from, unless it is new. From what I know, there was nothing like this for cadets from 2010-2012. May have changed in recent years though

Thats because they can't afford internet!

Hello Flyboat, it's your old friend here. Yeah that's right it's me, Bing.

Firstly, thanks very much for giving me the right of reply via PM before getting back on here in public and getting stuck in. Not particularly concerning given your questionable capacity, however I thought you'd be better than that. As you'll find out when you get your first flying job, you can't always sit here day-in day-out monitoring the forum. Some of us are at work flying aeroplanes, which means we can't utilise the PM system like an instant messenger. But you'll understand that in time, or perhaps you won't.

I did want to meet up - no aggression, no ill will, most certainly not to collect your $100. I'd just like to get your perspective on what makes you tick. You want to be a professional pilot yet you're here denigrating those who already are with a counterargument that's sounding more diva than voice of reason.

Between yourself and PeterC, you're the only two out of the lot spruiking the cadetship, yet neither of you are cadets! Peter clearly has a massive conflict of interest so everything he says can be discounted instantly. As for you, you have this uncanny ability to be able to respond within 30 seconds to a cheap argument, yet when someone genuinely wants you to have a grown up conversation or talk about your experience you go very quiet all of a sudden.

I sincerely hope that any aspiring cadet doesn't make it this far in the thread to find all of this drivel, but on the off chance they do, I recommend talking to a real life pilot directly rather than getting information from here. I know a few cadets, and they're all good blokes. Being a cadet doesn't make you a wanka, it's your attitude that does. Importantly too, if you get knocked back, life doesn't end. There are a hundred ways to skin a cat, and despite FBN's insider predictions, you can get into a jet within 5 years. I did it, as did most of my GA mates, it's all about timing, nothing else. Timing affects cadets too, just ask the QF guys who were sent to find their own job and will never go back to QF, or the current jetstar guys.

Flyboat, I hope you find what you're looking for but please don't influence the decisions of others with your illogical rubbish. I''ll respond to any reasonable questions and arguments from you but you won't hear from me if you post a prepubescent cheap shot again.

In the meantime, I suggest you go and book yourself a TIF and see if you even like what you so desperately want.

Bing is back with his smarty pants mouth.

You claim to hold a bachelors and masters degrees, be 33 years old , and fly a 737 for either Virgin or Qantas, having progressed there after five years in "GA". A powerful CV to say the least. And you now state to you will resign your airline job and return to "GA".

You really are in Disneyland without a ticket.

In my view your CV is a complete fabrication, and that is why I made the $100 bet. But after initially accepting the bet you now hide, you do however continue with your smarty pants mouth via this anonymous BB.

The Qantas cadets were all employed by Qlink, many are now captains there. The Q cadets still in training were given the option to transfer over to the Jetstar upon course completion - many took that.

Sure come cadets fail , some elect to leave , some get thrown out but overall the conversion to airline employment is over 90% and in most courses over 95%. Pretty much as good as it gets really, demanding courses in short time periods , so they must be getting the selection right.

Contrast this with say other large groups of CPL grads say the graduating classes say the 2010 to 2012 classes from Swin , Griff , UNSW. OK the flying schools take one or two a year but typically they have 30 to 40 completing each year. What % from the 2010 classes are still actively pursuing a "piloting" career - I would suggest 30% would be an overly optimistic figure.

I have been told that the majority of graduates from these programs never obtain a pilot job , never actually do one paid hour as a commercial pilot. The training/education is quite good - the issue is the lack of opportunity at the lower end of GA.

These places typically tell prospective students they have all sorts of alliances with airlines, that their students get preference - just tall tales really. Or that doing their course will qualify them to be a "regional airlines first officer" and they put this in black and white - amazing.

What they don't tell them is that within 12 months of graduation at least half of CPL class has given up on a career of being a pilot. They have realized that even in an average market the bottom end of GA is pretty much a slave system, and they aren't prepared to join the fray.

Like I said Flyboat, no more reaction from me to the dribble, but I'd like you to address the points below.

False. Yes there were a few that went to link, the rest went elsewhere from Metros, King Airs and Brasilias to, god forbid, Islanders. I know some of these people personally. They're never going to Qantas. How many do you know? How many went to JQ? Do you have a figure? Post it here please.

Again, just post up the source of the figures please.

How did you get to those figures? Just a brief summary will do.

Told by whom? Figures please.

So in summary from the above 3 quotes: 50% get a job, the majority never obtain a job, but 30% actively pursue a career? Show me how you got these numbers and what they mean.

If you think any of this is out of context, the full post is above.

If you can achieve any of the above, please go ahead.

100% of 2010 QF cadets are working in GA with no hope of QF or link got to wait about 5+years. 2009 QF has some in link and some in JQ(ACP), half of them worked in GA (FI) before 320 rating.
Most of 2008 QF worked as FI at OAA till 2012 and went to Link (Traineeship).
Jq1-3all on line with JQ. ( ones who did not kicked out)
Half of JQ4 on line, some doing endo, some still waiting.( 1 got boot)
Jq5 told next match endo. ( 1 got boot)
Jq6,7,8 no hope.
9 and 10 postponed ( canned)

I think you will find that there were no QF cadets post 2008 , in terms of commencing on the program from 2009 onwards.

Or if there were any QF classes commencing post 2008 , really just "token" numbers to keep the program alive.

2007 was the year of the big ramp up for the QF cadetship, so reasonable numbers commencing in 2008 but it all went south after that.

There was a group of 50 selected to commence in 2009 , subsequently reduced to 5 , then subsequently reduced to zero

So I am not sure what you mean with your dates ? , are talking about years of commencement or completion ?

What I was saying was that out of the say 2010/11 cohort at the aviation degree Unis , you would find around 30% still actively pursuing pilot careers at most. And that 12 months post-course at least 50% would have dropped out, most grads never to us the CPL to earn a single solitary cent.

You are thinking of the QF cadetship prior to when work exp was done with Qlink. The farming out of cadets to Mac, Air North , Skippers etc ceased from around 05/06 from that point on all QF cadets went to Qlink. Much easier to manage.

So there was a job for them at the end of training, sometimes there was a wait, but such is life. A limo and red carpet to pick you up to on the day of completion of your training was never part of the deal

As you know over last mainline class was January 2009. So cadets from that point on just stayed with Qlink, many now captains, or moved on to other airlines.

Jetstar commence cadetship mid 2010, and positions in this program offered to all current QF cadets doing training at Swinburne. About half take it, and get RPL based on how much they have done. The rest elect to remain in the QF systems obviously hoping for a turnaround at QF mainline, and proceed to Qlink.

Interestingly the two Unis involved with the QF cadetship , Swinburne and Griffith keep plugging it ,and how they have been selected to run the "Qantas Cadetship" for years after it closed.

With regard to Jetstar program both flying schools told there will be no mid-year intake this year. Current Jetstar cadets not told anything as is appropriate , any decisions about their commencement will be made when they have completed. Jetstar want them to do A320 endo's just prior to commencing line training, so that is one reason for a delay.

QF did initiate a hiring freeze for all non-QF pilots at Jetstar franchises back in March, as they see this as a potential LWOP etc destination for QF pilots , they stay "in" the system , avoid redundancy payouts etc. But even in four weeks this has already been relaxed and some of the franchises have put on "outsiders" (meaning not a cadet or QF transfer).

Sure QF will have to reduce numbers but they have five (soon to be six) different Jetstar franchises to soak up those who wish to go there, same deal with Emirates who clearly could take large numbers.

So you might even find that the decision to not to run a mid-year Jetstar course is reversed, as was the "hiring freeze" at other Jetstar franchises.

Flyboat,

So if jetstar only take 2-3% of the applicants! the cream of the crop etc then what are the rest of us silly peasants supposed to do? Give up our dreams of being pilots?
If that was me being rejected from a cadetship I sure as hell wouldn't let my faith be decided by some guy from HR.

Well it is a free country and people can do what they please.

The point is with CPLs/Av degrees etc, many people find themselves in their early twenties with a CPL/IR/Av Degree and a six figure HECS debt. Their employment prospects are virtually zero, no instructing jobs in the city and they have never been to the outback, that is why 50% drop out within twelve months. So they are on the dole whilst their cohorts from secondary school have started grad jobs in the $60K to $90K range.

Take a look at the advertising , you had the two Qantas cadet Unis promote the program for years after it has closed down, also telling potential students that at the end of three years you can be a "regional airline first officer" - just complete BS.

One Uni now promoting it's exclusive "Cathay/ Our Uni pilot cadetship" - the program has been closed for nearly a year, it was never an "exclusive" that this uni had anyway. People who do not have aviation contacts/family believe the fantasy stories perpetuated by the training organizations.

Heard one Uni got a few pilots along from an airline that has never had a crash - saying to the 300 assembled for the info night " there is no reason why we couldn't take 60% of the people in this room" - three years on post GFC , said airline had in fact taken four or five from this course. Yes you guessed correct the same Uni where you had to be a current student before actually applying to the QF Cadetship.

The reality is that you will have at best a 20% chance of achieving the goal in ten years - but people will see what they wish to see. And I think that is one reason why you see so much angst with regard to these programs, from people in the GA sector still hanging on to a "dream" - not prepared to let go and accept reality.

So what I would suggest is.

1. Join the ADF in any of three services via an ADFA degree in direct from school

2. Apply for cadetships , but in the mean time gain a skillset that you can actually get well paid work from , whether that be via a Uni Degree or trade or some other mechanism - the plan B

3. Keep apply for cadetships you are likely to luck out eventually, and keep gaining experience in your profession/tech trade. In the event that you are considering self fund choose a prof /tech trade that is highly "transportable" , allied health , IT , Eng , Elec/mech tech stuff.

4. Consider ADF trade to set up your back up plan B, tech electronics trades - lots of advantages over civilian trade

5. Self fund if you wish but don't do it without the backup plan , otherwise you just end up at the age of 21/22 just another unemployed GA pilot and likely never use your licence in anger.

Has anyone ever met anyone who was glad they did an aviation degree ?

Has anyone ever met anyone who was glad they did an aviation degree ?[/QUOTE]
Me!
Hasn't worked out too bad so far

Flyboat,

Who told you that it is hard to get a job in GA? Virtually zero? You are quite simply uninformed.

Yes you have to go "BUSH" :ooh::ooh::ooh: This bush you are talking about are still small towns and communities. To be honest you grow to despise big towns with all the traffic and general commotion.

It simple to get a job in GA. Go up north and knock on some doors. Don't be a sheltered aerosexual from Sydney sending emails to all the companies. If you are a someone who can sit down for a beer and talk about **** rather than aviation then you will get a job if you put your mind to it.

The reality is that you have no idea. Although I totally agree with you about the aviation degrees. What a waste of time!

FBN
 

Flyboat North

Who currently signs your paycheck?

I genuinely ask this because you seem to have an inside line to the inner workings of the recruiting departments of all the majors. Is there more detailed information that you can bestow upon us mere mortals?

fbn is piss and wind. dont know why you guys bother. he cant argue against any points made by others and continues off on his own little tangents. probably to try and make himself feel better about being in a 100k hole with no job.

Heresay
 

Stop stalling FBN! and clue us in to your background/experience while your at it please.

HR

So he is a real person and not just a troll? Interesting. How could you tell it was him? The over sized Ray Bans or the look of disgust he gave to every piston he passed?

FPVdude spill the beans! Does this guy even have a CPL? So he's not a cadet....

Definitely appears to be some kind on an obsession with Flyboat on a personal level. Necessary? Not really. Embarrassing? I think so.

The bullying behaviour here of people towards FBN is shameful.

So Pete and FBN are BFF's?

Bullying / personal obsessions...?

You're kidding, right?

FBN has a very polarised opinion, is clearly poorly informed in many areas of his argument (especially about GA) and writes with an unbelievably arrogant tone - I think that being called to justify his credentials and thereby lend weight to his case is very fair...

If he wants respect, he should show some to others here - rather than be a prissy little sh!tstirrer...

Give me a break, the guy belongs in a circus!

Cadets to $100K

If the other thread is true it looks like the Junior FO at Jetstar will rise to a base of at least $80K , allow some overtime/allowances this puts you comfortably over $100K

Not a bad pay check 18 months out of high school, you might think , considering the average for a Uni grad is low 60s , and on average a 3.5 year course there.

I think it would be interesting if perhaps some of the graduating cohort from Swinburne or Griffith from 2012 or 2011 could give an accurate summary of grad destinations, success rate.

The data that I hear around the traps is that apart from the few , likely a maximum of 20% who are taking the instructor route in the Capitals the employment outcomes are pretty hopeless.

Certain to stay that way for a few years with the magic man at Virgin losing hundreds of mill, QF a half nose behind , and the QF RIN people moving over to Jestar.

The advertising from both Unis tell you that a reasonable graduate expectation is a "regional airline first officer" as we know that just doesn't happen. One Uni actually claims you will be qualified to be a "maritime search and rescue pilot" - bizarre claims really that that have no basis in reality. But what can you expect when Griffith is touting it's exclusive Cathay Aviation Griffith Pilot cadetship ?

It is all about filling quoto's and it is a shame to see Aust Unis give clearly incorrect information to potential students. Most other faculties don't engage in that kind of behavior

The Cathay advanced program has been closed for well over a year , and there is no current plan to open it again.

A shame that young people often believe all this blatantly incorrect advertising , and find themselves in pile of debt , a degree and license where they are effectively unemployable.

Good news for the JStar cadets in training though - very hefty payrise there.

You'll have no arguments from me the way universities advertise these courses is misguided at best and fraudulent at worst.

Out of my graduating cohort when we were a year after graduation. The stats were roughly:

Students on 1st day of course: ~80
Students at the end of course: ~40
Students who completed and looked for flying work: ~25
Students who got jobs as instructors: 10-15
Students who went 'up North': 3
Students who got a job 'up North': 3
Students who got into cadet/traineeships after graduation: ~10

My thesis on why there is such a huge drop out and why so few complete the course on time is partly the disorganisation of the course and partly that many people were taken in by the flashy advertising in university guides and didn't have the dedication to make it through and out into the industry.

But as you can see of those who did have the motivation to battle through the disorganisation and complete on time just about all are employed. Everyone who went up north got a gig. It wasn't easy for anyone and I'm certainly not saying these jobs came because of the degree.

What I am saying is you can get a job in GA.

It's a shame that Universities resort to spivvy advertising, as in past years , and I am sure it is still true of most faculties at most Unis you will get a reasonably accurate appraisal of the employment situation for graduates of their discipline.

One of the Uni Aviation Heads in fact used to publish research papers on Women's menstrual cycles before he decided to be an "aviation expert".

The data you present is interesting about what I would have thought. Sounds a little high on the instructor/cadets numbers but you know the cohort not me.

I don't imagine they would be making any dint on their $100K HECs for a number of years, working the desk employed as a casual flying instructor.

True a lot of the Uni/Av grads got a good run from the advanced cadetships, but that is over now, Jetstar advanced shut a few years back, Cathay Advanced closed for about 12 months, Qlink just recently. (Also note that the famed exclusive rolled gold "Griffith Aviation Cathay Pacific Cadetship" is was also known as the Cathay Advanced with no advantage to Griffith students )

You can always get lucky as one Swinburne grad who has just completed A320 training at one of the overseas Jetstar franchises did (a local cadet had failed and they needed someone quick) - but that doesn't happen very often.

The other tangible that people have to consider is that the RAAF is very overstocked with aircrew atm (nowhere to go) , hence the introduction of the "gate" for those who pass BFTS. 120 to 150 are "winged" in the ADF every year, and you are going to have to compete against them at the other end for jobs.

I think I will go read a biology book right now.

After repeated requests for Flyboast North to give us all some idea of his/her aviation experience to give himself/herself some credibility.

Still nothing, I guess Flyboast Norths actual aviation experience is like his /her credibility, Nil.

My point was though that all these people didn't have cadetships when they started training. Of those who finished most got a job, as advanced cadets (or whatever each airline calls them), as instructors and even as charter pilots! My numbers contradict your numbers that a CPL holder looking for work will find it impossible.

It's by no means easy but the jobs are out there! :ok:

@mcgrath50 have to agree with you on that, but there is more than 1 uni cohort graduating at any one time plus other flying schools too; and there is only so many job available out there. So more often than not there would be more supply than demand.

I'm just stating some observation i noticed. Cant say much about my cohort, i (was) an intl student, with only a couple of aussie in my cohort.

14 of us started, 12 completed the course. if i'm not wrong the local guys are in the process of landing jobs or in a waiting list for 1.

FBN, so you don't like aviation courses at uni's, you don't like GA, but you love cadet programs. Great, thanks mate we get it.

You sound pretty bitter. Like someone who likes the idea of being a pilot, but is not willing to make any sacrifices. You are not a pilot, never will be. You do not have what it takes. You often mention how much coin certain drivers are getting or going to get. All the pilots I know have got out and worked hard and applied themselves to succeeding. We talk about money, but no one becomes a pilot to make money. Sure we want to fly a jet, but realise that there is so much more to aviation than flying big jets. Your attitude and information about GA is all wrong, and that's why you'll never be a pilot. You may fly a plane, but there's more to being a pilot than sitting in a control seat.

You have hijacked a thread for too long. Go away.

Cheers,
Greaser

JFO flex line FO's are not renowned for their OT!

Hows that recruitment freeze going?

I decided to start this thread back up again a while ago, and after about 1 and a half posts, income the jealous GA guys.

Everyone please note the title of the thread "Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program" not "Cadets vs GA" and stop fighting over who gets the biggest salary, or who has more experience, who has gotten there the quickest etc. GA and Airline are two different professions/lifestyles, and there is no point having a brawl over which is best.:ugh:

Just post constuctive comments on the damn cadet program. If you guys have no idea what it is, and are just trying to pressure people into GA, then please, go away.

So now that's out of the way, can we start a decent discussion?
Sort of like, things that people might want to know visiting this thread? maybe?
e.g.

• How long it takes to FO
• How long you have to wait for TR training
• The costs in detail of the course
• Even how to get into CTC or OAA in the first place (this is the hard part)

This probably wont work, but I tried :}

Read through this. http://www.swinburne.edu.au/science-...Info-Sheet.pdf

It covers the training stages and costs in detail. You won't get a definite answer in regards to the time spent between completing the first phase and undertaking the type rating. It all depends on the circumstances at the time.

March 2015 will be the next course provided it's confirmed.

I don't think jealousy has been the main reason behind many of the posts. Many contributors are, or have been, employed by airlines and are trying to give additional insight. Just because you don't like what they're saying doesn't make them wrong.


A cadetship is a very good way to get into an airline quickly, no one is arguing that. What is being argued are the real reasons why Jetstar started the cadetship in the first place ($$$), the pitfalls of the scheme (potentially no job at the end), plus the lack of experience a JFO initially brings to the flightdeck. One must also consider the very low chance they'll have getting in - plenty of very good pilots have missed out on cadetships, but still made it to an airline eventually.


Many pilots that have 'been there, done that' also have mentioned you'll miss out on a hell of a lot of fun, experiences and friendships by not following GA. But maybe those things are less important in today's 'social media' society.


Somehow the arguments started about flying schools and universities lying to potential students. Well, guess what? That's been happening for years and is nothing new! Many other training providers for other industries do the same thing too!


Whatever path you take, if you have the right attitude, can network (i.e. make friends at the simplest level) and are serious about learning your trade, you will achieve your goal. The only things that will stop new pilots leaving their comfort zone and succeeding are laziness, nerves, money or girls.

SammK

You didn't start this thread, the one you started was merged into this one.

Yes, there is plenty of bitching about cadetships generally because of why they have been introduced and not due to any animosity to the cadets themselves, with the odd exception. You need to understand this cadetship programme was introduced for one reason and one reason only, to reduce pilots wages.

However there is some good information in this thread if you bother to look.

The questions you pose in your last post are probably best answered by the training providers. If you're not comfortable with their replies then there in lies the answers to whether or or not to do a cadetship.

Which ever way you go, self improver/GA/airline, or cadet it will be crap shoot as to which is the best way to go. Ask the recently graduated Jeststar cadets who have been told, "No job" what they think. Right now the self improver/GA/airline option is probably the best. In a few years time the cadetship might be better.

However never lose sight of the reason why Jetstar introduced this cadetship.

What fts said. So true the last bit see it time and time again.

Where did you find this out from?