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27, if the conditions & terms weren't legitimate they wouldn't be happening. If the licence they are operating under wasn't legitimate, they wouldn't be sitting in the right seat.
You have every right to protest. Will Jetstar take your protest on board? Will the terms & conditions change to what you think is fair & reasonable? The only thing that will change the conditions are supply & demand. How are pilots conditions being undermined if pilots are accepting the conditions on offer? Do Jetstar have a problem with operating standards? Where's the proof of this? |
All the waffle in the world doesn't change a few simple facts.
If you got into aviation for the money, particularly in your first 2-5 years, you haven't done your research. A bare CPL is gonna get you not much, and you need to spend more money to make money.. Look at the outlay for the return., doing it outside a sausage factory maybe 70k to a MECIR.. Earn about 35-45 depending in what your doing.. In other words. Not much Go to a sausage factory spend about 120 then another 34 to get type rates and earn 60.. Still not much If your willing to accept that you will have to do an apprenticeship no matter what (and no matter how amazing you think you are), then you will be far better off both to yourself and the company.. How anyone thinks they are owed something with 200 hours in the logbook is beyond me? Take a camera to work, try and enjoy the view, and the ride. The money will come eventually if you can put up with the bullsh1t The cadetships are the way of the future, so get used to it. They probably are above board, but that won't make them fair or reasonable. You want to look at fair and reasonable, then don't read the pilot award.. |
Usually Jack, as you know, I'm pretty supportive of your views. But your last question about standards? You are kidding, aren't you? Mishandled flaps on approach, (multiple times, ) F+cked up Go arounds, infamous mobile phone incident, plenty to choose from. Make your argument, sure, but that isn't the way to do it mate.
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Porch, unfortunately my point isn't well made on the Internet :}
Yes all of those incidents have happened, why hasn't Jetstar being prosecuted? Is there one rule for them & another for the rest of us? (rhetorical question!) Point I'm trying to make is that if there is a problem with standards & offences have been committed, who is doing something about it? If there are inconsistencies being applied it will show up. 27/09 and anybody else that is being affected by this should be doing something about it if they feel so strongly. Or dare I say it :eek: they are just whinging................ |
so basically for someone with 1500+ in ga, multi engine and turbine experience....airlines are a no go?? should I throw out my logbook and start again?
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"so basically for someone with 1500+ in ga, multi engine and turbine experience....airlines are a no go?? should I throw out my logbook and start again?"
C173, I'd trust you far more than than fresh cadets in the same position..I hope the airlines feel the same.. I trust that most of them do.. I'm not saying its the only way to get there, and I'm sure the majority of cadets turn out ok, but I like that you have been out there making COMMAND decisions.. When do the cadets with no other experience get that opportunity? |
Geez,
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed again yet, it always starts with some poor guy trying to find information, and turns into a giant bashing session |
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27/09 and anybody else that is being affected by this should be doing something about it if they feel so strongly. Or dare I say it they are just whinging................ Having seen and read what's happened elsewhere in the aviation industry where there's been cadetships like the Jetstar one I shudder to think where it will end for cadets in this part of the world. It's not a pretty future. I see comments like yours as being naive at best and selfish at worst. It was interesting you brought up flight standards at Jetstar, I wonder why? |
In answer to your rhetorical question Jack, errr....YES!
Do a search of the previous Senate enquiry. The resulting head burying by both sides of the political fence, even when faced with overwhelming evidence of skuldugery, has been truely breathtaking. Good wind-up though. :E |
If there is a problem with standards at Jetstar, in particular cadetship standards and it is deemed to be an un-acceptable standard then you change the supply/demand equation don't you. More experienced FO requirements would mean the end of cadetships & cadetship pay.
Rather than sit back complaining on this bulletin board about pay & conditions, do something about the root cause. I'm far from naive, been around a while now. Selfish has nothing to do with it. The situation is what it is, if you have strong concerns with the industry & it's safety standards do something about it. |
JR if you have been around for a while as you say then you will know that...
if you have strong concerns with the industry & it's safety standards do something about it. As an interested bystander I vote with my feet and choose not to fly Jetstar (for a number of reasons). |
cadetship (kəˈdɛtˌʃɪp)
Definitions noun the position of being a cadet cadet (kəˈdɛt Pronunciation for cadet ) Definitions noun 1.a young person undergoing preliminary training, usually before full entry to the uniformed services, police, etc, esp for officer status 2.a school pupil receiving elementary military training in a school corps 3.(in England and in France before 1789) a gentleman, usually a younger son, who entered the army to prepare for a commission 4.a younger son or brother 5. See cadet branch 6.(in New Zealand) a person learning sheep farming on a sheep station Gotta love number 6 |
Captain, yes it is much easier said than done. I know for a fact there are people working on this behind the scenes. It wouldn't hurt if some of the people that feel so strongly about this got involved. More than likely it will take an accident before things change, human nature.
I'm with you, I don't and wouldn't fly with them, and a few others for that matter. |
It seems this ugly little scheme has surfaced again.
The truth is that this scheme did not ever stop despite a Senate Inquiry and a pending Fairwork Australia prosecution. That is not entirely true, the advanced courses for qualified, but low experience did stop but the ab-initio courses are to this day liberating money from the naive with no prospects other than after 18 months of training, joining a long (and getting longer) queue of graduated cadets under the scheme waiting for an offer of Employment that is not guaranteed. Their plight is only made slightly easier by those lucky ones who find work elsewhere in the industry meantime and those who have resorted to working in maccas or woollies to make ends meet whilst being crippled by VETFEE HELP debt repayments. These guys may find it too hard and be happy to throw an airline career away based on their initial, bad experience after finding something better. I am told by a few that frustration levels amongst previous cadets are starting to rise, stress levels are on the increase, ratings have long since expired and the lack of regular flying is seriously eroding skills and knowledge. According to the evidence given by certain witnesses this is preferable to a an experienced pilot with recent command experience who is supposedly contaminated by GA!! This scheme is morally no better than the 'black money' scheme in 60 minutes last night where scammers con you out of a huge amount of cash under the guise of a fast track to the stars and then, when you are broke, have lost everything and vulnerable the scammers offer you a job as a scammer where you will spend years scamming others, as you were scammed, to make your money back. At least the guy in 60 minutes broke the chain and I hope his wife sees that he realises he put his family's financial future at serious risk, has let them down and has tried to do the right thing. Hopefully they can put their differences behind them and be together as a family in the future. I think it is time for a little 'Game Change' of our own as until we get a smoking hole attitudes within the airlines and particularly Jetstar will not change. To do so requires the support of as many pilots as possible writing to your MP not about the Cadetship type arrangements, CASA has already demonstrated its shortsighted and unhelpful position by simply referring to the regs and saying its legally ok therefore we are virtually powerless. We must address the thing that allows the cadet ships generally to survive. MONEY. It's a little like the boats coming from Indonesia, stop the boats and you will stop the transfer of money to those people smugglers that profit from it and they will move on eventually the boat will stop. VETFEE Help is the only reason cadetships survive today in the Australian Aviation Industry - the airlines don't want to pay and without help most, if not all, have a spare 100k floating around without asking mother and father. Remove the finance that supports these schemes and there will be less cadets being able to afford the cost to participate in them and less opportunity for employers to benefit from naive individuals with easy access to a large government backed loan - without any hint of credit checking or an assessmenr of ability to repay. Aviation is a worldwide industry, leave Australia and your payments stop. Hey Wayne if your looking for ways to stem the deficit START HERE!! Accountants at Jetstar and the Training Organisations see this as a revenue stream, nothing more. However they know that they cannot access it without an individual who is willing to sign for it. The lure for the Con: the hope of bypassing the hard yards of GA and making it directly to the glamour of a right hand seat of a High Capacity RPT will 177 fare paying passengers on board. Reality check: it is not glamorous anymore and there is a long long queue of graduates in front of you. They thought they could employ cadets for $36000 a year at the beginning but that did not last long since I exposed the scheme for what is was two years ago. It is no accident that the number of graduated Jetstar cadets actually being offered employment has slowed dramatically yet with the high number of those graduates waiting hopefully for the call there are still plenty entering the Cadetship at the bottom quietly given the details of the scheme are nowhere to be found on Jetstar's website. How do we do this?? Using VETFEE help for the Commercial Pilots Licence is illegal under the Higher Education Support Act as this is a Certificate IV level qualification. VETFEE Help is only meant to fund the training for an instrument rating and multi engine endorsement. About $25k at the most. Hey Julia, let Wayne and Chris Bowen know that your Government is authorising and paying out tens of millions of dollars in training funding that is not permitted by the laws that your government debated and passed!! You are in appropriately spending public money!! .....and then to make matters worse your Government is opening up the migration system to, not only 457 pilots but, wait for it, Permanent Residency!! Show me where the shortage is if your Government Department CASA says it is perfectly acceptable for a newly qualified Commercial Pilots with an Instrument Rating and a massive 150 hours under their belt (70 in command) in a small training aircraft to be second in command on an aircraft carrying 177 of your countrymen and women....maybe even you!!! I have posted on other threads explaining the detail. We must take our fight to the Government since they are signing off the course approvals for the training providers. More to Follow The Kelpie |
Good on you Kelpie :D :D
Do you hear from anybody who posts on here complaining of these schemes offering to get involved? And another point, I question the intelligence of any future cadet who signs up for these schemes knowing the possible outcomes. I wouldn't want this type of person in the front of an aircraft I'm passenger in. If they are young and naive, where are their parents? Isn't it a simple matter of calculating the cost, working out the repayments, looking at the remuneration, then the bottom line? |
If they are young and naive, where are their parents? |
I know about 5 Jetstar cadets and they are all FOs now. In fact, I don't know anyone that is still waiting.
Having said that, it would be interesting to know how many people are actually waiting. These guys got in as soon as the scheme started.. The Kelpie, No one is crippled by Fee Help repayments until they earn over 56k, so they would be keeping the usual amount of cash if they are slogging it out at a supermarket, unless the supermarket in question is on an oil rig. |
The Kelpie, No one is crippled by Fee Help repayments until they earn over 56k, so they would be keeping the usual amount of cash if they are slogging it out at a supermarket, unless the supermarket in question is on an oil rig. Crippled does not necessarily mean in cash flow. The following example is a sarcastic example of how lives change and life choices altered. Sorry for this it is usually not my style but sometimes, whilst respecting the opinions of others I sometimes don't think my point gets through so I have to dumb it down. Scenario: young cadet pilot with hot partner both want to move their relationship to the next level and buy a property and move in together. The pair go to bank for a home loan. On assessing both their incomes the back advises that on face value, despite a poor first officer's salary it would be willing to lend $400k. Great they both think, should get something nice for that!! Then the dreaded tquestion about other borrowings. These are loaded questions cause the bank already knows what you owe!! They are there to detect honesty. Now the dilemma. Do I tell them about my FEEHELP debt?? If you do they will only lend you $250k knowing that you owe $100k to the Government without an asset to show for it. On top of that you owe $100k to your employer as well!! Hmmm. The bank now sees that your ability to repay a bank loan is seriously in doubt and you are knocked back! Don't tell them and when they check your payslips and tax return they will see it there so you will be seen as not disclosing. Hot partner gets frustrated by the amount of financial baggage you are bringing into the relationship and the affect it is having on both your ability to buy the house you both want. Life choices are affected and relationship becomes stressed, may even break. It's ok you say, in 6 years I will make Captain and we will be able to afford the house. Hot partner says ok, call me when that happens and if I am still single then we can hook up. More to Follow The Kelpie |
The debt only goes up by CPI, if you are going to go into debt for something it's the cheapest money you will ever get. For any degree it's better to use the HELP schemes than to get a personal loan or redraw on a mortgage.
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Originally Posted by mcgrath50
(Post 7874684)
The debt only goes up by CPI, if you are going to go into debt for something it's the cheapest money you will ever get. For any degree it's better to use the HELP schemes than to get a personal loan or redraw on a mortgage.
A HELP funded degree whilst not costing anywhere in the region of pilot training will generally be broad enough in scope to lead to a reasonable graduate position and salary within a shortish timescale if you are not too fussy. What we are talking here is paying over $100k (up to $200k for the Jetstar "Designer Course") for a lower level certificate IV qualification in a highly specialised industry, with relatively limited opportunities and for those opportunities that do exist extremely low paid. Reasonable paying jobs are restricted by Airline minimums and are not available so they sponsor migrants from overseas making the whole job availability situation worse. Ask Wayne Swann how much of his defecit is down to interest payments and how this has increased over the past 4 years. More to Follow The Kelpie |
McGrath if you crunch the numbers on any reasonable amount of debt, that CPI applied to the debt is actually fairly expensive. Yeah it's still cheaper than money from any financial institution, but if you only make minimum payments based on the income threshold for repayment, your debt will be around for decades.
Worse if you end up out of a job or not earning enough to make payments at all, that balance keeps increasing. It's not the free ride most students think it is when they agree to take it out. Borrowing upwards of $100K to fund getting into this kind of industry based on your only means to repay being in aviation could have the potential to financially ruin your life. |
KingRB and the Kelpie have hit the nail on the head, that is why my son won't be doing the jetstar cadetship. It isn't worth having such a gigantic debt like that o er your head in such a low paying job at such a young age. If the starting salary was what the level 1 FO's are on, it may be worth it, but living off $58k base with such a huge loan is incredibly stupid. And, there is no garuntee of a job at the end of the cadetship. What is going to happen withh all the Qantas pilots on mou, I'm certain a lot of them will be staying at jetstar because there will be no job to return to back at qantas, there are a lot of 744 second officers who probably will jump accross to jetstar in the not so near future which is going to displace a lot of the available jobs at jetstar.
I mentioned before, it is quite achievable gaining your ppl all the way up to an atpl for under $70k. And sure general aviation might not pay you more than $58k initially, but it won't take you too long to get a hold of a turbo prop job that does. |
Don't forget guys and girls that the VETFEE element is only less than half the financial story.
Once you add the VETFEE admin fee of circa $20k and the Jetstar funded loan you are all in for approaching, if not a little over $200k More to Follow The Kelpie |
I wouldn't be so sure that the MOU guys will be staying at Jetstar in large numbers. The guys on MOU will have to resign from QF to stay at Jetstar so those on the highest level of QF super won,t be giving that up in a hurry. I would guess that they will go back but have a LWOP job lined up somewhere.
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At least one parent is ensuring their young & naive son is informed & not contributing to the supply curve :ok:
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indeed Jack.
And it took almost zero input from said parents. Perhaps he looked at all the Airline friends of parents and worked it out. I am with the kelpie on this one, until proven otherwise, it does not make sense. |
Make that two sets of parents ;)
Do we reckon we're getting any closer to the root causes? There's a few |
Root cause? Simple. Airlines are businesses that are there to make money. Pilots take a huge amount of money out of the business. Pay pilots less, make more money. Repeat until broke and/or major accident occurs. It's so easy an idiot could have thought of it!
For what it's worth, I know a couple of JQ JFOs. Compared to their contemps of a similar age they are all pretty happy to be where they are rather than flying 50 year old Cessnas around the desert, especially considering that the boys and girls doing that are by and large all in a similar FEE-HELP debt position (actually a little worse off as they aren't making enough money to pay off any of it). |
You've probably jumped ahead a little. Overall a businesses costs do have an affect but it's not a cause is it?
Summarising: Root cause number one: parents not providing their children with a financial education. They are probably ill equipped to in the first place having grown up themselves in an era of easy credit, easy bankruptcy & not taking responsibility for one's actions. C'mon, there are more causes, thinking caps on |
They are a WEID MOB DOWNUNDER
Just another thread of bleating and moaning from todays generation - including the older grey haired variety of Oz pilots, about ab-initio pilots going directly onto big acft.
REF - Hamble College of Air Training was a flight training centre in Hampshire. During the late fifties it became apparent that there was going to be a shortage of ex military pilots who would be available to crew British civil aircraft. The two (then) state owned airline corporations, BOAC and BEA, in collaboration with the Ministry of Aviation, proposed a flying school based loosely on the Royal Air Force's officer training college at Cranwell. The site chosen was a small airfield at Hamble, Hampshire in the Southern United Kingdom, used at the time by Air Service Training and Southampton University Air Squadron. The first course of cadets began training in 1960. The college continued operations until the mid-1980s: British Airways (the merged BOAC and BEA) announced the closure in 1982 and in 1984 the land was sold for development and the equipment disposed of. For the first few years of operation the course lasted two years: later courses were shortened to eighteen months. Cadets were accepted equally from the ranks of school leavers and university graduates: previous flying experience was not a requirement. Following fifteen weeks of ground study, ab initio and, later, advanced flying training commenced. Ground training included aerodynamics, astronavigation, meteorology, propulsion and many other disciplines. Flying training commenced after fifteen weeks, initially on De Havilland Chipmunk aircraft, progressing to twin engine experience on Piper Apaches. A graduate would leave the college with a British commercial pilot's licence and a "frozen" airline transport pilot's licence, which could be converted into a full ATPL after further examinations and having accumulated the requisite flying hours. So this system has been going since 1960 - that's 53YEARS AGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! :(:ok: Do you bleaters/moaners still believe the ab-inito system is un-safe ? Do a google search and list the number of incidents/accidents that the root cause has been attributed to a CADET/Ab-inito pilot. AND - then do a little history search - on 19yr old B17 Capts who with ONLY 300hrs TT flew their B17s - with full crew across the Atlantic - in winter, at NIGHT to Ireland or Scotland, then continued onto bombing operations. Remember, today's generation of ab-initio pilots have the benefit of the last 65yrs of aviation evolution in navigation facilities, instrumentation and safety, AND the study of accidents that have identified weaknesses of the past and have made today's aviation operations more safe. Ciao |
Hey beau
Your point is valid but this is not the only point being made by this thread. I acknowledge that there seems to be a place in aviation for cadets but not to the extent that this becomes wholesale like it is becoming here in OZ. The increased interest in pilot training by Australian Citizens and Humanitarian Visa holders as a direct result of making it more feasible by accessing VETFEE Help has driven up the costs of training by at least 50% since VETFEE HELP was made available a couple of years ago. In some cases (Jetstar) the increase is nearer to 100%. What makes this wrong is that the training providers have jumped straight in to filter as much of this new revenue stream in their direction telling naive individuals whatever they want to hear to ensure that they get a signature and access to the cash! I believe training providers are even running 'road shows' nationwide to net as much of the cash as possible. This is big business!! What they do, and what they are offerring is not compliant with the laws of Australia but they don't care!! They are just grabbing as much of this government cash as they can, while they can before the Government catches on that they are in breach of the law and put a stop to it given the are complicit with the whole thing!! Essentially the Training Providers offer a Cadetship type course, sometimes reinforced by reference to its airline contacts, possibly with the impression that they can 'put a word in for you' and full of promise but the reality is that there is no job at the end. ADVICE: GUYS THIS INDUSTRY IS NOT THAT EASY!!!!!!! Gonna be a lot of disappointed individuals at the end of their course when they have a **** load of debt and when checking out the job pages realise that they are not qualified for any of the relatively few flying jobs listed. I don't see airlines reducing their minimums anytime soon!! There is no pilot shortage in this country neither will there be. Any shortage will always be managed by skilled migration. You don't have to wait and see, it is happening now and there is no shortage just perhaps a skills gap!! The industry in Europe demonstrates this. In Europe there seems to be more graduated cadets than positions and many positions that are available are casual in nature and many of those in the cold or clinging onto a few hours each month are drowning in a sea of debt and repayments. Cadetships use to be just that, a firm commitment between an airline and a talented individual and were reserved for the chosen few talented ones. Not any more they are just as I say "designer courses" but in the end they don't make you any more qualified than the next guy. Your argument focuses on the ability of an ab-initio cadet to act as a first officer on high capacity RPT multi- crew operations. Some will have the necessary aptitude and skills but most will not. The practice of all Aviation employers in this country, Government included specifying high minimums for 'entry level' first officer positions perhaps suggests that they do not agree with you. Despite the wider government view that high minimums are necessary on their own contracts their own aviation specialist department CASA certainly seems to support your argument, or alternatively is powerless and/or gutless to do anything about it. Good for Thought More to Follow The Kelpie |
Beau meister,
Thought we were talking of supply & demand? You were talking of under supply & the Jetstar cadetship was trying to supply pilots for an undersupply that is not really an undersupply because there is an oversupply of qualified pilots (I can point you in the direction of a few). So, I think you're talking chalk when this thread is about cheese? |
The Hamble pilots didn't pay.
Airforce Cadets don't pay. Police Cadets don't pay. Cadet schemes in general do not charge their Cadets. The current schemes run by airlines have no right to be called Cadet programs. Find a new name for these schemes. |
Royal Victorian Aero Club = the only honest VETFEE approved training providers in the room!!!
All by the book! More to Follow The Kelpie |
Beau Joker,
Two points about these 'new' vs the traditional 'cadetships:' 1/ Traditionally the trainee would often be put into a second officer role which offers a different learning curve than straight into first officer on short sector domestic operations. 2/ Financial cost structure. Cost burden used to lie with the employer not with the employee. This usually results in a higher quality of training and quality of candidate also. If you keep doing your history research you will find that not all young pilots doing their best for their country under extreme circumstances had good outcomes. Many lives were lost and to suggest that a wartime system which did have an 'attrition' rate is acceptable in a modern airline world is absurd. It is not a valid comparison. There would be a lot less backlash about this system if it could be proven it is actually 'needed' on a supply/demand basis and if it wasn't so apparent that it is a tool for making money at the cost of the cockpit crew and potential overall safety. Accountants do not have a formula for attributing value to experience and therefore a fresh cadet and an experienced pilot both checked to line are exactly the same to those running the numbers. |
I've known a few Jetstar cadets over the years, and recently met a small group who had just finished at OAA Moorabbin and were waiting to go to the UK for their A320 Type Ratings.
While they complained a bit about OAA being a bit disorganised, they seemed very positive about the outcome. My understanding is that for the first year they go on some type of "flex-contract", where they are more casual than full-time permanent. They did mention that they thought the Virgin cadetship looked more attractive, but this seems to mainly be because Virgin took more of an interest during their flight training than Jetstar did. It was little things, such as being invited to the Virgin AGM and Richard Branson going for a flight with a Virgin cadet who had just passed GFPT. The Jetstar cadetship is probably a good option and here is why: * No matter which option you take, pilot training to airline standard will cost a heap, it's just the the Jetstar cadetship via OAA is a premium price. * My guess is that the premium price the student pays is less than $50,000. * The salary differential between a junior GA CPL pilot and a Jetstar FO is maybe $20,000 in the first year and $50,000 in the second year. Taking the GA route into the airlines will take several years. Going the Jetstar cadetship route will thus give you a payback in between one and two years. * the Jetstar cadets will get into the seniority list years earlier than those going the GA route, which means they will get the benefit of much higher salaries much earlier, earning more over their careers. * for many pilots making the jump from GA to the airlines is somewhere from difficult to impossible, so having the guaranteed airline seat at the end of your training is probably worth the $50,000 by itself. From discussions it was apparent that 16 cadets started the recent Jetstar OAA course at Moorabbin and 15 complete their training and are atarting at Jetstar. It's a much more sure route than starting in GA as a G3 instructor doing circuits in on C152s . |
Now Peter if they have such a good deal then how do you explain what I have below.
imgur: the simple image sharer Now I got this story from another website that is not associated with pprune or professional pilots. The thread was basically asking about lifestyle of airline pilots. This chap chimed in. I couldn't copy and paste the text since I'm on a tablet but the image will do. Through a method of deduction it was easy to figure out that he or she was flying a320s in Australia and since they are a cadet they are flying for jetstar. If the cadets are so well paid then why does the poster paint such a grim picture? It's all good and well if you have your parents pony up the cash but self funding is another matter. |
One problem for all integrated courses is that HECS of FEE HELP is limited to $96,000 (from memory). Not many students seem to get thru the integrated courses in the minimum curriculum times, and I've known a few to need an extra $30,000.
My son did his PPL as a medium-sized GA school, which I paid for. This got him into an integrated uni course and means he should be able to finish his CPL, MECIR, Instructor Rating and ATPL theory within the $96,000. This is good for me because it takes a lot of financial pressure off me. I've been very impressed with the integrated uni aviation course he is doing, but I think the Jetstar cadetship would also be a good option. Part of the Low Cost Carrier model (such as Ryanair and and Ezyjet) seem to include the same type of pilot cadetship that Jetstar are now offering. At least here we have FEE-HELP/HECS, which saves the parents having to mortgage their house. |
$96,000 more than was on offer when I learnt to fly.
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