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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 22:32
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA
Have you actually seen the photo of the aircraft in question?
Yes, I have also seen that grainy image that shows very little.

Fuel state is irrelevant as YMAV was closer. Also, they had literally just taken off, seemingly did their first manoeuvre and this happened. If they were short on fuel at that point, they shouldn't have been there.

It's not their fault, it's human factors. You'd probably have had to try very hard to convince them at the time that it was not a great choice. Even if ATC had offered choices, they would probably have been declined. I don't blame them, I blame human behaviours.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 22:37
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Originally Posted by WetCompass

In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday and consider alternative airports available other than just home base. That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.
Wet compass. It might be time to take a breath.

Do you know he didn't consider other airports?
Have you seen the damage to the returned aircraft? I have - No one here (with experience) would have had any issues carrying the problem to any airport in the Melbourne basin.
I've seen planes with hangar rash that look similar. I'd be willing to bet the damage caused no affect on how it flew. I'd also be willing to bet if handling was an issue, the nearest AD would have been sought.

Look into the difference between suitable and nearest. Certain scenarios dictate the second option, but not many.

Tracking coastal was wise.

He also had the added benefit of a vastly experienced aviator as PAX - extra eyes and ears. From both their seated positions I'd estimate they could see most of the damage and correctly assessed the problem could be carried.

Asking for a runway inspection was smart in case the landing knocked off any FOD.

I cant make any comment on their operation as a whole, but from the publicly available information, I can only hope to handle an emergency with the same level of calm and professionalism.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 22:51
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA
Have you actually seen the photo of the aircraft in question?



I think you blokes are working pretty hard to find problems with something that was well handled. Anyone who knows BD will know he'd have considered the options and picked what was best on the balance of how the aircraft was handling and the other domestic considerations (including fuel state) - I am sure there was likely a cockpit discussion occuring between both highly experienced occupents as well. The aeroplane recovered safely at Essendon, a good outcome - for them at least.
It is unfortunate that pilots like to eat their own.

This crew just had a pretty traumatic event, yet successfully, professionally and safely recovered their own aeroplane.

We have proof of that, because the aeroplane is parked up and the crew are helping with the investigation.

They are lots of really good learning points for new pilots in just listening to BD during his recovery. Anyone can be taught to fly an aeroplane with enough time. But not everyone can leave a traumatic event behind and concentrate on flying the aeroplane home. That's what BD did. I hope if I ever experience an adverse event I am able to step up and perform as well as this crew.

To those that seem to know better, take a step back, drop the ego for a bit, and put yourself in this crews shoes. They know the aeroplane well, as they fly it towards the edges of its envelope. They have many years of practice in higher performance aeroplanes. This isn't their first rodeo. The PIC is flying the aeroplane, he feels any vibration hears any noise can see any damage.He knows how the aeroplane is performing. He knows his fuel state. He is in a far better position to make any decision. And we have proof his decision was good enough. And that's all that is needed.

I hope that both crew members are doing well. Its never easy to loose mates.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 22:57
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WetCompass
You really don't want to understand the point, eh?

In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday and consider alternative airports available other than just home base. That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.
Well thats all pilots put back in their place by you then. What would actually be achieved by declaring a Mayday in such a circumstance I wonder, over and above the communication that appears to have taken place in this situation, where the pilot informed ATC of damage to the leading edge of the wing.

You must live in a strange world, or really think ATC are stupid, if you believe that 'declaring a mayday' would have changed anything. Or maybe you don't actually fly and just watch loads of flying movies.

How do you know the pilot didn't consider alternative airports?

Did you maybe consider that returning to a familiar airfield makes a lot of sense after this kind of event?

As for 'its called learning, thats aviation', the sensible people will wait for the facts before jumping to radical conclusions.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 23:00
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A decision was made that some people disagree with as being the safest course of action.

You can argue either way until the cows come home. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there's no set run-book for this, unless of course it's in an Ops manual, like it would be for an airline.

Was it the safest and most risk adverse decision? No.

Was it a decision that got them home safely? Yes.

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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 23:23
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Was it the safest and most risk adverse decision? No.
I'm not sure about that. Essendon is in a control zone and the tower can manage other traffic. Avalon - not so much. If you have a wing that is comprimised, then you want as long a runway as possible, so that would be Essendon or Avalon only. I think there is a lot in favour of choosing to go back to home base and the airport with which you are most familiar.

There has been discussion of leading edge damage, but the photos that are publicly available don't really show it. Who knows, it may have been an initial conclusion by the pilot that turned out to be not so much of an issue. The pilot would have done an assessment of its flying capability after the touch that is better than any of us can do from armchairs.

I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 23:27
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700
Fuel state is irrelevant as YMAV was closer. Also, they had literally just taken off, seemingly did their first manoeuvre and this happened. If they were short on fuel at that point, they shouldn't have been there.
FWIW, unless fuel state was an issue (and it sounds like it wasn't), in my inexpert opinion, YMAV could be a totally inappropriate option following a low-altitude in-flight emergency near Mornington since your flight path would be (a) taking you well outside gliding distance of land and (b) from the moment you head west to get to one of the YMAV north-south approaches, taking you over deep unfriendly water a very long way from help, should you need to ditch along the way. Sure, you wouldn't kill anyone else, but staying coastal as he did makes the most sense to me.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 23:36
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Originally Posted by WetCompass
You really don't want to understand the point, eh?

In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday and consider alternative airports available other than just home base. That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.
When I listen to the recording of the comms, one of the first things I hear is "Viper 1, mayday mayday mayday". Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that he did in fact declare a mayday.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 23:49
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Originally Posted by PiperCameron
FWIW, unless fuel state was an issue (and it sounds like it wasn't), in my inexpert opinion, YMAV could be a totally inappropriate option following a low-altitude in-flight emergency near Mornington since your flight path would be (a) taking you well outside gliding distance of land and (b) from the moment you head west to get to one of the YMAV north-south approaches, taking you over deep unfriendly water a very long way from help, should you need to ditch along the way. Sure, you wouldn't kill anyone else, but staying coastal as he did makes the most sense to me.
They were well and truly already outside of gliding distance where they were operating.

If you look at the proposed flight path to YMAV it's not overly hostile. From your circuit at Moorabbin where you were looking yes maybe, but not from where they were off Mt. Martha.

Sure, you wouldn't kill anyone else
That's what this is all about.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 00:56
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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he was supported by the Williamtown hierarchy but criticised by Deaf Ear (Defence - Air Force Headquarters in Canberra)
One can perhaps understand Canberras reticence Clinton when reading the manual, far easier to replace the aircraft than the man, can't argue with success though, great flying.





I'm amazed that folk such as Wet Blanket think that the pilot had no mind as to what a forced landing in the suburbs might entail, been there, but over forested country.
is it asking too much to keep armchair expert opinions where they belong
I fear you may be asking for far too much these days Xhorst
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 00:59
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Those key heights are extroadinary.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 01:05
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Glides like a bunch of keys.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 01:17
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The landing at Tomago was not Garry Cooper's last deadstick landing in a Mirage. He walked away from a second one, albeit into a slightly better-prepared runway (Darwin).
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 01:22
  #174 (permalink)  
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Glides like a bunch of keys.

I had a back seat ride with Dave Robson, many decades ago. On the way back home to Avalon, after completing the test card, he demonstrated a flame out approach to this keen young chap ... and it was precisely as described in the post. Best flight of my little life, I have to say, and as clear a memory as if yesterday.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 01:24
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My two machbuster certificates are very precious to me!
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 01:43
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Originally Posted by m0nkfish
Well thats all pilots put back in their place by you then. What would actually be achieved by declaring a Mayday in such a circumstance I wonder, over and above the communication that appears to have taken place in this situation, where the pilot informed ATC of damage to the leading edge of the wing.

You must live in a strange world, or really think ATC are stupid, if you believe that 'declaring a mayday' would have changed anything. Or maybe you don't actually fly and just watch loads of flying movies.

How do you know the pilot didn't consider alternative airports?

Did you maybe consider that returning to a familiar airfield makes a lot of sense after this kind of event?

As for 'its called learning, thats aviation', the sensible people will wait for the facts before jumping to radical conclusions.
Yeah, right, I just watch movies.

Go back up the thread and you see someone ask about other airports. Immediately, you experts jump on the person asking the question as some sort of personal offence. Personally, I think that was a good question. Seems that not many of you give a rats about who you are flying over. The fact of the matter is, that Avalon has a longer runway and there is no built up area to fly over to land there if there are any concerns about the integrity of the airframe and avoiding built up areas.

But hey, why give a **** about who you fly over. Make your decision to fly over as many houses as possible if you ever have an airframe problem.
Brilliant.
Now if you don't mind I have to go back to my Top Gun viewing..
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 01:59
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To go with the marvellous 'megan' post above with text about a MIRACLE flameout - below is the GIF graphic. GOto for free download of the MIRACLE IIIO & IIID RAAF flight manual (PDF 70Mb): https://www.docdroid.com/MtUOJBE/aus...ght-manual-pdf

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Old 24th Nov 2023, 02:01
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Then there is the thread subject aircraft GLIDE / FLAMEOUT graphic from free source cited earlier.


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Old 24th Nov 2023, 02:13
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Originally Posted by Clinton McKenzie
My two machbuster certificates are very precious to me!
Back when the earth WAS COOL that very nice ROBSON gave me a M 1 lift in the back of a MIRACLE out of NAS Nowra. I had just finished my A4G OFS when two MIRAGES came down for a few days for DACT. I flew against ROBSON in an A4G with DROP empty drop tanks and we had a stalemate with sortie ending due MIRACLE low fuel. As it happened there was an issue with the Mirages that required them to be able to divert back to WillyTown from NAS in case of an undercarriage problem IIRC. Anyhoo it was EYE-opening for sure to hit the burner from the back seat in my ride later that day. I was not given a certifcate (one may be found online) however my logbook entry has been cut/pasted onto it.


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Old 24th Nov 2023, 03:33
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And sadly Dave Robson flamed out a few months ago, RIP.
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