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S211 Down Port Phillip Bay

Old 25th Nov 2023, 06:22
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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The mayday call was appropriate regardless of the condition of Viper 1, after all it was responsible for all comms for both aircraft.
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Old 25th Nov 2023, 06:30
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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What are the regs regarding wearing of life preservers on an aircraft in this category during a short duration flight over water?

Mjb
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Old 25th Nov 2023, 07:08
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Airframe out of the water on a barge..




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Old 25th Nov 2023, 07:38
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Sobering pictures.

A good video here with some close formation around the 8min mark.

Note the high level of visibility of the leading edge due to the mid-wing design.

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Old 26th Nov 2023, 01:07
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700
Sobering pictures.

A good video here with some close formation around the 8min mark.

Note the high level of visibility of the leading edge due to the mid-wing design.

https://youtu.be/x7rfjleV5Ns?si=YHBcDOkZxl1bP043
Who would have guessed? I think a few posters have been making this point about the viability, and what the crew could see, hear and feel.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 02:55
  #226 (permalink)  
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Oh, dear, that doesn't look to be what one might term a low energy impact .....
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 03:09
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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The "squawk ident" was for identification purposes not for location marking.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 04:58
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine
Oh, dear, that doesn't look to be what one might term a low energy impact .....
No it doesn’t! Hard to determine it was even an aircraft
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 05:26
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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In Post #193 Squawk may be close to the mark: The Age article at https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...25-p5emqk.html has: "Victoria Police Acting Superintendent Martin Bourke said the initial investigation indicated the wing of the plane struck the wing of another plane while they were performing tandem manoeuvres."

I also now realise 'wondering' if the jet would hit the sea bed in ~20m water depth was neither here nor there. Loads on the structure and deceleration on contact with water must have been massive given the wreckage.

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Old 26th Nov 2023, 05:55
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin
The "squawk ident" was for identification purposes not for location marking.
I've been meaning to ask about that LP... they showed up on FlightRadar 24 etc, but not on the AirServices WebTracker. Does that mean perhaps they used a SkyEcho with no mode charlie? Not relevant to the crash at all, but did notice this when I looked.

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Old 26th Nov 2023, 08:01
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Did it have an FDR?
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 10:09
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Did it have an FDR?
I heard a snippet of news that claims the accident aircraft had multiple GoPros on it, filming the flight, so hopefully a few survived and were recovered for the investigation.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 11:53
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Squawk7700, I'm presuming they were operating VFR so were probably squawking 1200 and given the aircraft rego was showing up on FR24 they had ADS-B. WebTrak may have been "censored" to remove the accident aircraft.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 12:01
  #234 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by heretolearn
Wetcompass - Genuine question. Are you a troll? I cant imagine anyone being so wrong so often other than on purpose?
Originally Posted by WetCompass
Yeah, nah.
How does the pilot sitting in the command seat assess the damage to the wing-spar, or tail section? Do you recall the Embry-Riddle Uni PA-28R that lost a wing during circuits? That flight had an examiner on board, he couldn't tell a fatigue crack was about to break. Why do we attribute super-human abilities of x-ray vision to pilots?

Fact of the matter is, the PIC of DQJ was concerned about something, but never actually stated the nature of his concern on the radio apart from mentioning something late in the flight about the runway needing inspection after landing. The wing had struck another aeroplane and the extent of the damage to the airframe was unknown at the time. There was a suitable airport available that did not require overflying built up areas for a landing and it was not offered up as an alternative by ATC and we don't know yet if it was considered by the crew. But there was mention of Moorabbin by ATC. Why? Well, we'll find out. But for now, not a criticism of the aircrew or ATC, but could we do better if it was us? Well I think so, but we need to think about it clearly on the ground before we embark on our next flight.
The ERAU accident involved a competent and professional FAA DPER, John Azma, who I knew well,, from Orlando Executive. The failure he had was not foreseeable by the crew and was not survivable, shades of a certain Macchi loss of Willie many years ago. I had a sister ship tot eh one that was lost, but was far fewer hours and cycles, and we grounded my one from testing subject to detailed inspection. Losing a wing is a permanent mess to your day.

As far as who calls what, when the exhaust system fell off Glenn Todd and Kell Aldridge's aircraft and took out my propeller and silenced Pete Nalder for most of the rest of the flight, trimming his nose somewhat, I seem to recall that I put out the mayday for both aircraft, and funny enough, no one actually complained about that at the time or subsequently. Years later, sitting around Dave Stevensons hangar at Corona ("Dave crashes better than anyone I know...") 3 of us in the hangar had lost props in flight, and not one of us was complaining about the mayday calls that we had made.

The Mayday call gets a bit of peace on the line, and gets some attention to what the guys are going to come up with next, is is supposed to.

As far as controllability checks go, they were -1 and NATOPS standard procedures, seeing is nice but the plane will talk to the driver and suggest a course of action if they have the sense to listen and apply simple "CDF" to the matter at hand.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 12:02
  #235 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin
Squawk7700, I'm presuming they were operating VFR so were probably squawking 1200 and given the aircraft rego was showing up on FR24 they had ADS-B. WebTrak may have been "censored" to remove the accident aircraft.
Normally only the leaser would be squawking mode A/C, the rest are squawking stay for close form. Serious question, if that has changed, I am all ears.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 14:02
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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For military sure, but these were civilian doing their own thing VFR OCTA.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 19:46
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin
For military sure, but these were civilian doing their own thing VFR OCTA.

this is still very much a procedure for civilian formations.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 20:08
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700
I've been meaning to ask about that LP... they showed up on FlightRadar 24 etc, but not on the AirServices WebTracker.
Pretty sure webtrak must have been censored. On the day, when I landed and heard about the accident, I was looking around trying to work out what was in the area that day, and I spotted two jets headed south low level off the coast just passed Moorabbin at around the 1:15PM mark. They both didnt turn up for long as I remember (like they flew im then out of range or something). I note they no longer show up on there today.

Edit: in hindsight, that timeline doesn't quite stack up, but odd that I saw it at the time ( I sent a text to my brother discussing it, so not like memory playing tricks on me)

Last edited by DARKMAIZE; 26th Nov 2023 at 20:22.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 20:31
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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It was all over the news by about 230pm so your timeline recollection is probably correct.

I was up flying and was going to head over to Drysdale from Mt Martha way and assumed some kind of SAR exercise was taking place in the danger area as there were half a dozen aircraft in the one spot.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 22:09
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fdr
The ERAU accident involved a competent and professional FAA DPER, John Azma, who I knew well,, from Orlando Executive. The failure he had was not foreseeable by the crew and was not survivable, shades of a certain Macchi loss of Willie many years ago. I had a sister ship tot eh one that was lost, but was far fewer hours and cycles, and we grounded my one from testing subject to detailed inspection. Losing a wing is a permanent mess to your day.

As far as who calls what, when the exhaust system fell off Glenn Todd and Kell Aldridge's aircraft and took out my propeller and silenced Pete Nalder for most of the rest of the flight, trimming his nose somewhat, I seem to recall that I put out the mayday for both aircraft, and funny enough, no one actually complained about that at the time or subsequently. Years later, sitting around Dave Stevensons hangar at Corona ("Dave crashes better than anyone I know...") 3 of us in the hangar had lost props in flight, and not one of us was complaining about the mayday calls that we had made.

The Mayday call gets a bit of peace on the line, and gets some attention to what the guys are going to come up with next, is is supposed to.

As far as controllability checks go, they were -1 and NATOPS standard procedures, seeing is nice but the plane will talk to the driver and suggest a course of action if they have the sense to listen and apply simple "CDF" to the matter at hand.
Regarding a wing falling off messing up your day, that's exactly right. But why mess up someone else's day as well? If you're in doubt, then you should act on it. So hugging the coast and asking for a runway to be inspected after landing indicates there was some doubt. Diverting to Avalon would be a way of avoiding the potential to mess up someone else's day.

Regarding the Mayday call, I agree it's quite appropriate for the lead to call Mayday on behalf of both aircraft. But in this case the focus seemed to be almost entirely on the downed aircraft. I could be wrong, but Melbourne Control advised Moorabbin of a possible emergency. No mention of Avalon as an option when there was a possibility of a damaged aircraft flying over built up areas for either Moorabbin or Essendon. I'm just saying perhaps it would have been a good idea to include Avalon as an alternative. Not sure why so many on the forum seem to have issues with keeping all options open.
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