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S211 Down Port Phillip Bay

Old 24th Nov 2023, 03:57
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Old Akro
I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.
As someone with zero experience in this environment, I have to admit I have pondered this also.

One thing that many here are criticising he pilot for choosing a wrong airport, but last I checked there has been no confirmation that the two aircraft in fact touched each other, let alone what actually occurred to the returned plane. Perhaps there was a flock of birds involved and thus any damage was known to be minimal ornthe initiap call was made when they suspected damage in the heat ofnthe emergency momebt, but on second glance, all was operating as expected..

I do look forward to the official report in understanding what actually happened.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 04:19
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Originally Posted by DARKMAIZE
As someone with zero experience in this environment, I have to admit I have pondered this also.

One thing that many here are criticising he pilot for choosing a wrong airport, but last I checked there has been no confirmation that the two aircraft in fact touched each other, let alone what actually occurred to the returned plane. Perhaps there was a flock of birds involved and thus any damage was known to be minimal ornthe initiap call was made when they suspected damage in the heat ofnthe emergency momebt, but on second glance, all was operating as expected..

I do look forward to the official report in understanding what actually happened.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2023-057
Mid-air collision involving SIAI-Marchetti S211s, VH-DZJ and VH-DQJ, 25 km west of Tyabb Airport, Victoria, on 19 November 2023
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 04:27
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
And sadly Dave Robson flamed out a few months ago, RIP.
Very sorry to hear that. I believe he had an excellent RAAF career.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 04:54
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Story about Dave Robson & DELTAs Miracle team (I would guess 1970?). Alf Allen was an RAAF course mate on No.67 Pilot Course 1968.

WINGS_2022-winterWeb.pdf (wingsmagazine.org) (13Mb)



1970's Mirage Display Team [10 minutes]


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 24th Nov 2023 at 07:19. Reason: ad vid
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 06:00
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.
I assumed you meant, how did Viper 1 get leading edge damage when it was the lead aircraft, meaning it should have been Viper 2 with the damage if they were holding formation according to their namesakes.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 06:55
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700
I assumed you meant, how did Viper 1 get leading edge damage when it was the lead aircraft, meaning it should have been Viper 2 with the damage if they were holding formation according to their namesakes.
Are they not allowed to change lead to get better video?? That would be a first.. This is is a TV show, not the military.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 06:57
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Old Akro
I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.
The lead aircraft can be changed inflight for any number of reasons (eg training). Maybe at the time of the incident Viper 2 was leading and 1 was formatting.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 07:44
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Originally Posted by vhjaj
When I listen to the recording of the comms, one of the first things I hear is "Viper 1, mayday mayday mayday". Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that he did in fact declare a mayday.
Yes, he did!

That's why I was so confused about all this bruh-haha regarding BD not declaring a mayday.....by the way, it was the most cool, calm and collected mayday call I've ever heard
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 08:16
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PiperCameron
Are they not allowed to change lead to get better video?? That would be a first.. This is is a TV show, not the military.
I am very much aware of that. I was responding to a pondering.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 10:35
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Originally Posted by I spy
Yes, he did!

That's why I was so confused about all this bruh-haha regarding BD not declaring a mayday.....by the way, it was the most cool, calm and collected mayday call I've ever heard
Because some people here are convinced no matter what facts are presented here that the lead pilot ****** up. One has to question what the motive is, other than the usual pilots eating their own.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 10:39
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DARKMAIZE
...last I checked there has been no confirmation that the two aircraft in fact touched each other, let alone what actually occurred to the returned plane. Perhaps there was a flock of birds involved and thus any damage was known to be minimal...
While the portion of comms with ATC (post #9) makes no direct reference to a collision, the summary of the accident on ATSB website certainly defines it as a mid-air collision between the aircraft.

ATSB also indicate damage to -DQJ as being "minor" consistent with one of the posts here. How did -DQJ sustain only minor damage while -DZJ seemingly became uncontrollable? Perhaps instead the pilot was incapacitated? That said, the recent Caboolture mid-air also resulted in only wing damage to the tow plane while the other became uncontrollable.

News reports also noted the 20m water depth (even if some articles scrambled this information). At first I thought a diving jet could easily impact the sea bed given depth is only about twice the length of the aircraft. But if it remained largely intact after water impact, it would decelerate very quickly due to its buoyancy, even from a vertical decent.



Last edited by helispotter; 24th Nov 2023 at 11:54.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 11:05
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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That is a lot of wondering!
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 11:11
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by helispotter

ATSB also indicate damage to -DQJ as being "minor" consistent with one of the posts here. It makes me wonder how -DQJ sustained only minor damage while -DZJ seemingly became uncontrollable. .
PURE speculation at it's finest, however this may answer your question as to how one aircraft can sustain minor damage and the other becomes uncontrollable. How can you end up so close? Once you add some bank angle in there on one or both aircraft, things go bad very quickly..

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Old 24th Nov 2023, 11:28
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700
PURE speculation at it's finest, however this may answer your question as to how one aircraft can sustain minor damage and the other becomes uncontrollable. How can you end up so close? Once you add some bank angle in there on one or both aircraft, things go bad very quickly..

So Squawk, realising you are speculating, are you suggesting aircraft on left would get a larger upsetting yaw moment on impact (due to contact at wing tip) sending it out of control while other maintains stable flight?

I notice ATSB summary makes reference to "formation manoeuvres" and some footage on TV also showed this before the accident, but what is to say at a later stage they were not doing simulated dogfight manoeuvres as I thought the website was indicating was offered on the regular package. The track of DQJ was certainly showing quite tight turns over the bay that I couldn't imagine would still be while in formation(?)

Afterthought: The orbits of DQJ could of course have been after the collision with pilots looking for the downed aircraft?
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 11:31
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WetCompass
...In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday...
Originally Posted by WetCompass
If you listen to the ATC audio the pilot of the "Viper" aircraft tells Melbourne control that he intends to make a visual approach... And while you're at it declare a Mayday for yourself as well.
Originally Posted by WetCompass
...So Thursday night we can listen to that recording and wonder why he didn't declare a Mayday. I guarantee you the ATSB will look at that as well.
Did you not listen to the recording? His Mayday declaration is clear as a bell.

Originally Posted by WetCompass
That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.
I doubt you'll find much support here for a pilot abdicating operational control of the aircraft to someone on the ground. I'm actually amazed you suggested it; maybe it's my fault for presuming you are a qualified pilot if you are in fact not.

Originally Posted by WetCompass
Was it the best option? Maybe, maybe not....the idea that there is no better options than flying over built up areas after being in a midair collision.
There's no "maybe" about it. He landed safely and in minimal time with a level of damage he obviously took into account. He had all the available information to hand at the time; you have almost none of it to hand now. Case closed.

I thought I'd check in here for any developments and began with the last post and worked upward. There's probably much more malarkey in here than the above but by the time I got to those posts I couldn't stomach anymore. I work with pilots of many nationalities and the woeful, infantile standard of discourse in here makes me wary of admitting I'm from Aus. This is why people talk about oztronauts.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 11:51
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
That is a lot of wondering!
Solved: No more wondering after editing.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 12:10
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Originally Posted by Rataxes
Did you not listen to the recording? His Mayday declaration is clear as a bell.


I doubt you'll find much support here for a pilot abdicating operational control of the aircraft to someone on the ground. I'm actually amazed you suggested it; maybe it's my fault for presuming you are a qualified pilot if you are in fact not.


There's no "maybe" about it. He landed safely and in minimal time with a level of damage he obviously took into account. He had all the available information to hand at the time; you have almost none of it to hand now. Case closed.

I thought I'd check in here for any developments and began with the last post and worked upward. There's probably much more malarkey in here than the above but by the time I got to those posts I couldn't stomach anymore. I work with pilots of many nationalities and the woeful, infantile standard of discourse in here makes me wary of admitting I'm from Aus. This is why people talk about oztronauts.
You can get the right outcome using the wrong process, so just reciting the outcome is insufficient.

There was a Mayday in the radio call. But for whom? Was he calling Mayday for the other aircraft or for himself? If it was for himself he didn't act like he was in any danger. So what was the Mayday for? It's the ambivalence in his behavior and the ambivalence in the discussion on this forum that concerns me. If he was indeed in danger then why fly over built up areas? If there was no danger why declare a Mayday? And that goes for ATC as well. If it's a Mayday, what's the nature of the danger? And none of this is about blaming anyone. It's about what could be done better between now and when the ATSB report comes out.

Well you can label all this "malarkey" if you like. But I have a feeling you're not really listening. All you're doing is attempting to humiliate the discussion out of existence. Why?
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 13:16
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Because some people here are convinced no matter what facts are presented here that the lead pilot ****** up. One has to question what the motive is, other than the usual pilots eating their own.
I don't think so. This is a discussion forum. When events happen there are those who post
  • "Stop speculating - leave it for the official investigation." then there are those who post
  • "The pilot is a hero. How can you question their actions? You're being disrespectful." and then there are those who post
  • Hmmm. For my own education, I wonder if THIS bit could have been improved?
The first two get all emotional about it, perhaps because they know those involved. The third is simply using a discussion forum for it's very purpose - to bounce around ideas.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 17:27
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Originally Posted by WetCompass
You can get the right outcome using the wrong process, so just reciting the outcome is insufficient.

There was a Mayday in the radio call. But for whom? Was he calling Mayday for the other aircraft or for himself? If it was for himself he didn't act like he was in any danger. So what was the Mayday for? It's the ambivalence in his behavior and the ambivalence in the discussion on this forum that concerns me. If he was indeed in danger then why fly over built up areas? If there was no danger why declare a Mayday? And that goes for ATC as well. If it's a Mayday, what's the nature of the danger? And none of this is about blaming anyone. It's about what could be done better between now and when the ATSB report comes out.

Well you can label all this "malarkey" if you like. But I have a feeling you're not really listening. All you're doing is attempting to humiliate the discussion out of existence. Why?
Mate, youíre embarrassing yourself. If such a thing is even possible.
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Old 24th Nov 2023, 19:37
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WetCompass, you are correct, the mayday call is a little strange. I guess it was a heat of the moment thing and far from rehearsed. If seems like heís calling mayday for the downed aircraft, but realistically heís declaring a mayday for the situation that covers both aircraft. What I do personally find a little strange (and again, with a shot of adrenaline thrown in there) is that he mentioned words to the effect of ďwe can see a splash mark; I donít know whatís going on down there.Ē Itís just how he reacted to the situation, but itís like he didnít know what happened to the other aircraft.
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