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Airservices Class E changes

Old 7th Feb 2021, 03:04
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Mr Approach, which High-Capacity RPT companies in the USA allow their crews to "adopt VFR procedures" when a clearance is not available from ATC?
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 03:51
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No. Because US RPT pilots are not trained or skilled at operating in class G like Australian RPT pilots are.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 04:09
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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No.
No what, Dick? US RPT Hi Caps are not allowed to operate See and Avoid/VFR or they are? Which companies do allow it? Pretty simple question.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 04:31
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Of course they operate see and avoid in E.

How else could it properly work?
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 05:08
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No Dick, they're IFR category, VFR procedures. I doubt high cap in the States would depart VFR and then do IFR pickup.

But Cap'n, what you do is go over to the States, chat to the airlines that run high cap and ask them what procedures they use, you then ask a bunch of line pilots how they apply the procedures. You also talk to the FAA, look at the mandated procedures, chat to a bunch of controllers and go from there.

What usually happens in ASA is that washed up, and/or ex-controllers with very little console time (ladder climbers) concoct Australia's 'own brand' of Class E. And SAFIS, whatever TF that garbage is.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 05:12
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The Class E procedures proposed are garbage and won't work. I very much doubt they'll go ahead in that format. I'm waiting for the inevitable backtrack that goes along the lines of:

'We are listening to you the industry'

When what they're really doing is:

'How the F are we going to back out of this steaming turd of a concept and look like we haven't F'ed this up'
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 05:33
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Do all of our airline aircraft operating into non tower airports have HF?
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 05:40
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When I was involved in airspace change( removing the duplicated ATC/FS system ) I organised for a group of pilots and ATCs to travel to the US and fly in the system.

We then got FAA experts to come to Australia and brief those involved in the proposed changes.

This procedure needs to be repeated.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 05:57
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Hi McLimit - I did not say that any PT flights in the US operate VFR procedures, but they do fly visually and they do see and avoid in Class E airspace . How else could it operate?

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Old 7th Feb 2021, 06:42
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Lots of traffice about on this subject - this one should see an interesting response:
Airservices have said:
“Airservices are conducting extensive risk modelling that will include analysis of flights numbers in the impacted sectors, aircraft identified on surveillance without flight plans, aerodrome congestion, sector demand and conflict and collision risk modelling.”
An industry member has responded:

Could you assist my comprehension as to how you were able to determine flight numbers “in the impacted sectors”given the impacted sectors of the East Coast Class E proposal are down to 1500’ AGL and include large areas of Class G without surveillance, and even those areas of Class G with surveillance include large numbers of aircraft without ADS-B or transponders which would only show (around capital cities) on TAR not enroute MSSR even if radar coverage available. Radio wise, both in Class G and Class E those aircraft may well run silent so that identification likewise lacks.

I’m also having difficulty following on from that in how one performs collision risk modelling”without knowing the data on the abovementioned aircraft not known at all in the system (no flight plan, no radar or ADS-B identification, potentially no radio calls thus running silent for our purposes).

Your answer will be valued since the risk modelling you cite is a foundation “part of our safety case”.
As McLimit said:
'How the F are we going to back out of this steaming turd of a concept and look like we haven't F'ed this up'
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 07:49
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I find it perplexing that Class E separation would require the departing aircraft to stay on the ground, whereas in Class G "the departing aircraft can get away whilst the inbound aircraft is manoeuvring for the instrument approach" Are you saying that in Class G you are not separating yourself, or are you in fact departing VFR, the obvious answer. This can also be done in Class E airspace and CASRs allow PT aircraft to do so pending ATC identification and onwards clerance IFR. However I am told that airline companies believe it is too dangeraous to adopt VFR proceures and I believe every company in Australia prevents their pilots from so doing.

Neville are you saying that PT pilots are actually flying under the VFR........?
No pilots are sorting out their own separation and making it work. For example I have seen at two separate airports the situation where the inbound aircraft has to make a procedure turn Instrument Approach. Aircraft line up and wait for the inbound to be established outbound in the opposite direction then they take off on runway heading climbing away straight ahead with at least 5NM+ separation.

Then Class E was introduced over the top at both airports and aircraft were then held on the ground until the arrival landed for separation. If it's quiet it's not a big deal. However with this coming all down the east coast I can't see how it won't be chaos unless there is a revision of what the separation standard is for ATC. It seems crazy that at places like Sydney and Melbourne they launch departures with aircraft on a 2.5Mile final yet 10NM doesn't seem to be enough in Class E. I assume there are different standards for different airspace types but unless they change their standards it's not going to work. I can only assume this is what Black Panther was getting at. The controllers can do it but it's going to be a square peg in a round hole situation once again as CASA won't allowed it under their rule set.

In reality they are better off leaving as is then at least there is flexibility in the system to enable departures and arrivals to arrange their own separation.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 08:18
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/...rspace-review/

This gives a bit of an overview of the U.S airspace.

Isn't this just another variety of "roadblock" airspace ? Quote from article below,

"So, what does happen if you are IFR into a non-towered field and you forget to cancel IFR? See the sidebar for a real story. On the ATC side of things, the controller working that airspace, Class E and G airports, will wait 30 minutes before allowing other aircraft to be released or cleared for an approach. Section 10-4-3 of our rule book states that, ďAfter the 30−minute traffic suspension period has expired, resume normal air traffic control if the operators or pilots of other aircraft concur. This concurrence must be maintained for a period of 30 minutes after the suspension period has expired.ĒThis means that if you are IFR and following another IFR aircraft to a Class E or G airport, and they donít cancel, ATC will first suspend IFR operations for 30 minutes waiting on the call. Then after that 30 minutes is up, any pilot already waiting to land there will be asked by ATC if they are comfortable shooting the approach. That must be done for 30 more minutes after the initial suspension time.

If you arrive or are already in the airspace and then IFR traffic is suspended to that airport, ATC will advise you as soon as possible. From this point, the pilot determines if they want to divert to another airfield, hold until the suspension is up, or if they are able, cancel IFR and proceed VFR if the weather permits.

If you find yourself in this situation, do your best to make a decision quickly. Once you do land safely, donít forget your options for cancelling IFR. If not cancelling in the air, you can call the number ATC gave you, or if they forgot you can always call flight service and cancel with them. At fields with a Remote Communications Outlet (RCO), you can utilize it to cancel as well!

You already know your own requirements to enter certain airspace, but now that you know some requirements for ATC to allow you to enter or remain clear of certain airspaces, regardless if you are VFR or IFR, you are better equipped to handle certain scenarios. The non-towered field scenarios happen daily. ATC could be limited in certain cases to tell you what you want to hear, but they do the best they can to help prepare you. At nontowered fields, do your best to cancel IFR as soon as safely possible, and use extreme caution when popping out of those clouds, especially in Class G airspace."

Last edited by 10JQKA; 7th Feb 2021 at 08:35.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 08:48
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Airlines in US class E do not like mixing with 1200VFR flights. So much so they get in and abuse VFRs who dare to transit THEIR airspace. Just the same, a kneejerk reaction to an accident at a non-controlled aerodrome is the worst outcome. Right now if the MBZ is regurgitated over MNG. It will have to taken in the combined aerodromes of Pukka, MNG, Nagambi/Wirrate, Wehring and Locksley fields 15nm outside each aerodrome and up to the 8500ft base of class E...bigger than the ML CTR! All because of the big sky theory on an IMC day around the only VOR in a parsec. CTAF does not work on an IMC day, There is no means of gaining SA AND do all the things needed to be done AND monitor two frequencies(The R/T log is going to be very telling), IFR training needs to be rethought on REAL IMC days...there is no means of the supervising pilot acting as a safety.

Having said that. Provided ADS-B antennas are located within line of sight to every aerodrome with a published approach procedure, Sector sizes are reduced to allow proper surveillance and, I believe, the primary frequency at these aerodromes is the area frequency on IMC days then, yes Class E would work.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:31
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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G'day Mr Approach,

No what, Dick? US RPT Hi Caps are not allowed to operate See and Avoid/VFR or they are?
I'm on yours and Dick's wavelength, I was more responding to the good Cap'n and others. Of course they operate visually, you'd be a fool not to in any airspace classification. They depart IFR but they sure as you know what have a set of eyes outside. And I'll bet my last dollar that any airline that operates out of Ballina would be doing the same thing as any RPT that operates out of a Class D towered aerodrome into E in the States.

My angle is the E proposal is garbage, stupid and not far short of dangerous. If you're gunna do it, do it based on the model that works.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:33
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Airlines in US class E do not like mixing with 1200VFR flights. So much so they get in and abuse VFRs who dare to transit THEIR airspace.
I'd like to hear more about this.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:34
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Posted a link a couple of years ago..see if I can find it.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:41
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Originally Posted by Bloggs
No what, Dick? US RPT Hi Caps are not allowed to operate See and Avoid/VFR or they are?
I'm on yours and Dick's wavelength, I was more responding to the good Cap'n and others. Of course they operate visually, you'd be a fool not to in any airspace classification. They depart IFR but they sure as you know what have a set of eyes outside. And I'll bet my last dollar that any airline that operates out of Ballina would be doing the same thing as any RPT that operates out of a Class D towered aerodrome into E in the States.
MClimit, I said that. Of course we keep our eyeballs out as much as we can. I'm beginning to think you do not fly heavy metal.

Anybody who seriously thinks that any commercial operation should use See and Avoid as a primary method of separation with other aircraft (eg jets in a CAF) quite frankly has no credibility in this argument. None.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:55
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Go to 05:20 to 11:50 of the video. This was 2018.

EDIT toadd...it was the ATC that had a go.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:58
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MClimit,
It's little 'c' big 'L'

I said that. Of course we keep our eyeballs out as much as we can.
Cool.

I'm beginning to think you do not fly heavy metal.
I never said I flew heavys, medium when I was in the States.

Anybody who seriously thinks that any commercial operation should use See and Avoid as a primary method of separation with other aircraft (eg jets in a CAF) quite frankly has no credibility in this argument. None.
I know as much, if not more about alerted see and avoid than you do. That's not having a crack, but I've been doing what do for some time. And really, you should stop denying and trying to mislead others that the intention of E in Australia is anything other than fully alerted. You'll be separated from IFR and you WILL HAVE traffic on VFR. The States doesn't have a VFR transponder requirement in E, Australia HAS a transponder requirement on VFR in E.

At some point in time, the traffic densities in some airspace in Australia will approach the densities they have in the US. And there sure as shit won't be Class C towers with Class C airspace going in.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 10:00
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Thanks busdriver
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