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Airservices Class E changes

Old 4th Mar 2021, 00:13
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Captain Midnight, I was taking your accurate point more broadly - loss of essential expertise in both organisations and the consequences thereof!
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 08:54
  #342 (permalink)  
 
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What a farce, surely a CAGRO is part of the ATS system and therefore should receive flight plan information.
But it's not, so it doesn't.
Such an investment would improve safety and efficiency.
Have to be an awful lot of efficiency gains to pass most cost-benefit analysis for the average regional port.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 13:09
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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Do I understand that Inverness is a Class D Tower/CTR, with Class F airspace above it and then Class C, is this correct?
Well, no.

Inverness is a Class G Air Traffic Zone (tower controlled within 2.5nm of the Aerodrome Reference Point, up to 2000 feet AAL), in class G airspace, with class C overhead from FL195 to FL600. In that class G there are three levels of service from ATC - a Basic service, a Traffic service and a Deconfliction service.

There are proposals to increase that to class D within 25nm up to 5,500' AAL and E above that.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 14:18
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Checkboard, I don't think we have to worry about our messed-up airspace, reading that. The poms can't be serious?!

25nm D to 5500ft. Copycats.

It means that the aircraft will, along it's journey, soon be entering airspace in which air traffic control is provided. The note means that an aircraft flying from one airport to another, all in class F, won't normally be offered a traffic advisory service. An aircraft taking off from an airport in F, and climbing into class C will be offered the service in the F part of the flight as well as the C part of the flight.
No. Is English the first language over there?
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Old 9th Mar 2021, 04:17
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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Nothing from Airservices last week, so we have no idea what the progress of their proposal is. Behind the scenes it seems obvious that Airservices are still trying to maintain a schedule which now seems impossible in the time available considering the close off for the December 2 charts is mid year. Bearing in mind the mess they have made of the proposal and just about everything associated with it the failure to suspend the time line now stinks of pressure from above..
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Old 11th Mar 2021, 22:33
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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So it is now mid March and nothing from Airservices.

If they were truly interested in safety they would have enabled all submissions to be read by everyone so that everyone could understand everyone else’s differing opinions. Just like the Senate RRAT enabling everyone to read all the submissions, subject to submiiter’s privacy desires, (of course).

I have read 3 of the 1000...all excellent content...might not agree with all the content and opinions but at least I understand their point of view.

But that is not how Airservices plays the game. Spin overrides everything including safety and we can't show how foolish, stupid and arroagant Airservices was by plucking a date, having no decent operational concepts let alone proven reasons for making the changes and spinning presumably their political masters as well but truly having no idea what they were doing or why. Says it all about Airservices for last 15 to 20 years, fake news and alternative facts well before Trump and Conway!

So how to get out of this embarrassing situation....Hmmm if I was a betting man, do as little as possible and organise the previous nominated base of 1500 AGLs to a mixture of 8500, 6500 and 4500 AMSL ( or 5500 / 7500 ) up the east coast so IFR pilots and controllers are not distracted by terrain. No need for radar terrain vectoring charts, MSAW data for CFIT safety net alerting (removed in paranoia after VH-TNP), Approach control training for our low level enroute sectors, etc etc etc.

Sucker all of industry to think all their concerns have been listened to and give the impression of major change when actually doing nothing and not addressing the real safety issues, in fact making them worse?

Remind me again what “Pyrrhic victory” means...

In the words of a moderator on another aviation forum...MTF no doubt

How will thus help the signature incidents / accidents of Mangalore, Albury, Coffs and Ballina??
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Old 13th Mar 2021, 02:18
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer
So it is now mid March and nothing from Airservices.

If they were truly interested in safety they would have enabled all submissions to be read by everyone so that everyone could understand everyone else’s differing opinions. Just like the Senate RRAT enabling everyone to read all the submissions, subject to submiiter’s privacy desires, (of course).

I have read 3 of the 1000...all excellent content...might not agree with all the content and opinions but at least I understand their point of view.

But that is not how Airservices plays the game. Spin overrides everything including safety and we can't show how foolish, stupid and arroagant Airservices was by plucking a date, having no decent operational concepts let alone proven reasons for making the changes and spinning presumably their political masters as well but truly having no idea what they were doing or why. Says it all about Airservices for last 15 to 20 years, fake news and alternative facts well before Trump and Conway!

So how to get out of this embarrassing situation....Hmmm if I was a betting man, do as little as possible and organise the previous nominated base of 1500 AGLs to a mixture of 8500, 6500 and 4500 AMSL ( or 5500 / 7500 ) up the east coast so IFR pilots and controllers are not distracted by terrain. No need for radar terrain vectoring charts, MSAW data for CFIT safety net alerting (removed in paranoia after VH-TNP), Approach control training for our low level enroute sectors, etc etc etc.

Sucker all of industry to think all their concerns have been listened to and give the impression of major change when actually doing nothing and not addressing the real safety issues, in fact making them worse?

Remind me again what “Pyrrhic victory” means...

In the words of a moderator on another aviation forum...MTF no doubt

How will thus help the signature incidents / accidents of Mangalore, Albury, Coffs and Ballina??
Mount Kosciuszko is 7,310 ft, so make the base of CTA 8,500ft, "plenty" of airspace between the terrain and the base of CTA.
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Old 13th Mar 2021, 05:31
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Missy,

I appreciate the irony of your post. Doing nothing is not an option! Airservices, CASA and ATSB have done nothing for 18 years. Indeed critics could rightly say we have gone backwards, MNG will forever haunt us of the bull**** of “situational awareness of ADSB”. It is actually “conflict detection, stupid”....that counts...

What I suspect will be proposed will induce future increases of incidents / accidents of causal types already identified by perceived opposing sides of this debate; ie. departing aircraft being told “Clearance NAVBL” and the wreckage found along the track in high terrain or inbound aircraft remaining on control frequency longer and so the correct situational awareness and complete traffic picture is never gained before collision.

Passive do nothing or do liittle solutions options have simply filled extraordinarily the wallets of the “managers” of the holy trinity since TAAATS Eurocat was commissioned.

Australian aviation has wasted 18 years and a significant number of lives have been lost, apparently in vain.

The issues confronting collision risks is airspace below A100 was raised as a trending issue during Operation Skysafe in AsA in 2013/14. It was given no support.

How many AsA ADSB receivers have been specifically commissioned for “surveillance below A100”?

Dick is right, we need a ROYAL COMMISSION into Australian aviation especially below A100.

Though first we need a royal commission into the Australian psyche and why we seem to need so many royal commissions.

We could be better than this...sigh More to follow...

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Old 14th Mar 2021, 06:24
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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a significant number of lives
Define significant? On an actuary scale it might be quite acceptable.
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Old 14th Mar 2021, 21:40
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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So PPRUNErs.

I put the original copy of the following words in the Australia, New Zealand and Pacific Forum under the Jetstar and Ballina again thread...

“re my preceding posts apart from the A320 / Jabiru incident, where is the evidence to prove Ballina is a problem?”

Any ideas?

Gf
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Old 14th Mar 2021, 22:07
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was
Define significant? On an actuary scale it might be quite acceptable.
It might be. Then again it might not.

Would be good to see the evidence of objective assessment against the ‘actuary scale’, wouldn’t it.

The hatchet job done on Angel Flight was done because they are practically powerless. Not so CASA, Airservices and the airlines, who have ATSB in their pocket.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 06:14
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Devil Airservices PLAN B

Well, they have finally come up with a Plan B for the lowering of Class E on the East Coast.

There does not seem to be any mention of a revised timeline (on the first read) but to push for a December introduction is foolhardy! Lets see what industry has to say this time.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 08:47
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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As I predicted Airservices has taken this from the world’s biggest fantasy to the world’s biggest confidence trick,

Let us see if you all fall for it??

What chutzpah!!

A lovely Hebrew word that is used here in the original Yiddish connotation (hint, not a compliment!)
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 08:51
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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Very mysterious!

I understood this change was to address the terminal area where the risk is greatest as shown by the Mangalore fatal in IMC.

This latest design does not address this at all.

It bares no similarity with the US system- undoubtedly the best allocation of airspace in the world!
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 09:08
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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Got a PM requesting more on chutzpah!

Why show my illiteracy when others excel....

From Wikipedia:Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts', presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to". In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defines the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan."

Chutzpah amounts to a total denial of personal responsibility, which renders others speechless and incredulous ... one cannot quite believe that another person totally lacks common human traits like remorse, regret, guilt, sympathy and insight. The implication is at least some degree of psychopathy in the subject,[citation needed] as well as the awestruck amazement of the observer at the display.

Yep I think that covers it..,.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 09:33
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The flight threads are interesting. Read them closely before they get removed...
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 10:08
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Originally Posted by atcnews
The flight threads are interesting. Read them closely before they get removed...
Nice to see someone else reads things carefully!
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 10:22
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Read the modified proposal (dog's breakfast) and weep! Still no proper safety case, either...

Airservices Australia - Revised Lowering Class E Changes Proposal
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 11:14
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What’s the bet that the Government will suddenly announce a multimillion subsidy for transponders or ADSB?

The problem is that the electronics shops will get a bit of a boost but the rest of the GA industry will get no measurable economic advantage at all.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 12:05
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith
What’s the bet that the Government will suddenly announce a multimillion subsidy for transponders or ADSB?

The problem is that the electronics shops will get a bit of a boost but the rest of the GA industry will get no measurable economic advantage at all.
Dick, you should've stayed in electronics!!

The flight threads are a disgrace. Seems like the ATC Subject Matter Experts were shoehorned asked to provide a few scenarios without knowing the exact airspace design, A045 or A065, A065 or A085. The flight threads should've included the surveillance coverage. And what would a pilot know about sector groups such as Grampians, such a Byron. Melbourne or Brisbane Centre anyone? And how can it be that an airport like Scone doesn't have reliable VHF coverage? And the radar and ADSB coverage diagrams are very poor, extended coverage ! I don't think so.
The engage website should allow an option for a pilot to submit flight threads and a coordinated (ASA/CASA) correct answer provided.

Last edited by missy; 16th Mar 2021 at 12:08. Reason: typo, pilot submitted flight threads
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