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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

Old 20th Feb 2020, 23:31
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
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Originally Posted by andrewr View Post
There are really only 2 questions that need to be answered:
Were they both IFR?
Were they in class G airspace?

If the answer to both is yes, then this is the Australian system Working As Designed.

We know aircraft in IMC cannot adequately self separate - that is why ATC was invented. We get away with it in Australia most of the time because IFR traffic is relatively low. We have rejected Class E (radar or procedural) designed to prevent this type of accident.
We knew the risk was there. We knew a collision between IFR aircraft in Class G would happen eventually. We know it will happen again eventually if the current system is maintained long enough.

We also know the solution: Class E airspace. Or perhaps these days a technology solution would be appropriate - make some form of TCAS mandatory for IFR aircraft.

A 3 year inquiry might find something the pilots did or didn't do that might have prevented the accident. But that would be a distraction. The real issue is we have IFR without ATC separation, and that means collisions will occur.
Correct.

And then there’s all those RPT operations in and out of aerodromes in G....
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 00:06
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
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Originally Posted by Lancair70 View Post
The last ADSB data from AEM shows it passing 4250' and descending at 1216'fpm at 190kt gs. The stamp before was at 4500' descending at 832' fpm .
The last ADSB from JQF was level at 4100'. 2 stamps before it was climbing at 1152' passing 4000'
There's five to ten seconds between the timestamped data frames for both A/C. ADS-B Out transmits ~TWO data frames per second. FR24 strips out 95% of the frames to save bandwidth, and because they're not needed for normal everyday plane spotting which is fine. So there's probably five or ten additional data points not showing. It would be nice to have the complete raw data when these incidents occur. Oh well, it is what it is...
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 01:35
  #103 (permalink)  
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The fact that these 2 aircraft crashed while one was descending and the other was climbing is extremely rare (and extremely low probability) most crashes occur because 2 are at the same level like cct height or an inbound point or another is passing through one of these levels. The chance of 2 aircraft being at Circuit height, for example, is fairly high - the change of 2 aircraft being at around 4100ft not so much.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 01:49
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
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I added the timestamps to the last two data points for both A/C. 2 seconds and 2600 ft. between the two...




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Old 21st Feb 2020, 04:05
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Melbourne
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Originally Posted by ZAZ View Post
Hey Rubber Duck,

You dont think we can comment about what was an obvious breakdown in the system?
Four pairs of eyes ears four radios, adsb.
I fly that vor every year to renew have 30 renewals.
I fly MTG vor three times a year never have issues with inbound REX rpt get told about them 50 miles out.
So what went wrong with seperation standards?
The route SHT MNG WNG very busy weekdays
lots of ctaf frequencies and yes the radio chatter is loud but you must deal with it and as casa keep harping develope a situational awareness.

I am worried, concerned and need to know what went wrong.
Might be my mistake next, so what was the mistake.
So far at mng had near miss with a croppie, missed by 200 feet
but ifr to ifr collision?
unheard of.
Bendigo guy check captain thousands of hours..
other guy
CFI Tyabb.
thousands of hours experience but it did not save them.

why?
Well said, my concern as well.
Given the ATSB's very thorough report will take a number of years before being released, it might be useful for the knowledgable sirs on this forum to perhaps brain storm the sorts of hazards and risks that can catch out even highly experienced pilots regarding traffic separation in OCTA IFR ops around CTAFs. What sort of situations have we found ourselves in over the years, where we got a bit of a scare regarding traffic separation, and how did we cope, or not cope?
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 04:28
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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I agree with the quote from andrewr:
"The real issue is we have IFR without ATC separation, and that means collisions will occur."
Most importantly, there is no “standard” for separation of IFR aircraft in Class G airspace. Presumably the “standard” of separation is set by the least experienced pilot.

The Stage 4 AMATS changes of June 1993 here would have brought Class E airspace down to 1,200 feet at Mangalore. In this case, the Seminole might have had to wait on the ground for 3 or 4 minutes for a clearance, but the flight could have been undertaken safely.

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Old 21st Feb 2020, 04:44
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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I entirely fail to understand how such an accident is possible. What are Airservices doing? Aren't IFR aircraft supposed to be separated from each other by the controllers? Wouldn't both aircraft have appeared on radar? Doesn't that expensive radar system employ conflict alerting? Didn't Australia mandate the fitting of ADS - B equipment to IFR aircraft precisely to ensure this accident couldn't happen? I mean flightradar24.com can see it happening why can't Airservices? Whats the point of ADS - B if Airservices ignores the data it provides? Why are we paying billions to Airservices? For what? If they can't keep two light IFR aircraft apart, how can they keep Qantas and similar large aircraft apart?

Being selfish, what is to stop an IFR aircraft from running into me in my bugsmasher?

Should we have confidence in ATSB? Airservices? CASA?
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:03
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Aren't IFR aircraft supposed to be separated from each other by the controllers?
No, not in Class G airspace. They get traffic information on the other aircraft, and are then responsible for separating themselves.

Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
If they can't keep two light IFR aircraft apart, how can they keep Qantas and similar large aircraft apart?
Qantas and other large aircraft typically operate in class C airspace where ATC do separate the aircraft. However there are places where they operate in Class G and have to provide their own separation. They do have TCAS as a backup.

Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Being selfish, what is to stop an IFR aircraft from running into me in my bugsmasher?
Assuming you are operating VFR, see and avoid (which is much easier than IFR can't see and avoid) with TCAS as a backup if you have a transponder.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:18
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
What are Airservices doing? Aren't IFR aircraft supposed to be separated from each other by the controllers?
It was class G Airspace, which is uncontrolled... Is it the concept of operating in class G airspace you cant grasp, or is it the meaning of the word "Uncontrolled"? Either way the problem can be solved by either reading AIP or the dictionary.

Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Wouldn't both aircraft have appeared on radar?
Quite possibly not, even with ADSB coverage is still far from 100% at low levels. Even with the FR24 feed the departing aircraft only appeared moments before the collision.

Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Doesn't that expensive radar system employ conflict alerting?
Yes, with limitations, such as the aircraft must both be in surveillance coverage, and there are STCA inhibition areas in the vicinity of aerodromes

Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
I mean flightradar24.com can see it happening why can't Airservices?
Because FR24 can get an ADSB feed from some guy sitting in his house with an ADSB receiver and an internet connection. Airservices need an ADSB feed that has integrity and redundancy for surveillance services. This means multiple channels for transferring the data. High speed connections to ensure the data meets the updating requirements. Some method of checking the integrity of the data both from the aircraft and also from the ADSB site. At a guess I suspect an ADSB site would run into the millions. Airservices don't have endless resources.

Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Being selfish, what is to stop an IFR aircraft from running into me in my bugsmasher?
You operating in accordance with the VFR, see and avoid, alerted see and avoid, traffic displays on the modern EFB's, and while its a crazy idea, maybe some form of ADSB in traffic system for your aircraft? There are lots of options... like any system though its not foolproof.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:18
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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A question for any controllers out there. If we can see these two aircraft on FR24 I presume they appear on an ATC screen. Would the close proximity of two aircraft set off an automatic alarm for the controller if the aircraft are in class G airspace? Would the same scenario set off an automatic alarm for aircraft in class C/E airspace?

Last edited by Cloudee; 21st Feb 2020 at 05:33.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:29
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cloudee View Post
A question for any controllers out there. If we can see these two aircraft on FR24 I presume they appear on an ATC screen. Would the close proximity of two aircraft set off an automatic alarm for the controller if the aircraft are in class G airspace? Would the same scenario set off an automatic alarm for aircraft in class C airspace?
Your assumption isn't correct. The ADSB coverage in FR24 isn't representative of the ADSB coverage that ATC gets. Yes the STCA works in Class G airspace (the ATC system itself doesn't actually know what class of airspace the aircraft is in), however it has its limitations. The STCA has a 90 second look ahead, and its looking for if the aircraft getting to within 4.8NM of each other and 1000ft. It will only work if at least one of the aircraft is coupled up to a flight plan, and will only work if both aircraft are the same type of surveillance (ie ADSB/ADSB, or SSR/SSR, not one ADSB and one SSR). There are STCA inhibition areas around aerodromes, as aircraft are regularly operating very close there and we would constantly get false alerts. Most controllers try and keep an eye on IFR aircraft at an uncontrolled aerodrome and will give a safety alert if the aircraft look like they may collide, however when you are monitoring 1000 square miles of airspace with dozens of aerodromes you cant possibly be watching everything at once. Also operations in class G airspace tend to get very close to each other, so you get used to seeing aircraft in very close proximity.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:31
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cloudee View Post
A question for any controllers out there. If we can see these two aircraft on FR24 I presume they appear on an ATC screen. Would the close proximity of two aircraft set off an automatic alarm for the controller if the aircraft are in class G airspace? Would the same scenario set off an automatic alarm for aircraft in class C airspace?
someone has already answered this
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:38
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OCTA Aus View Post
Your assumption isn't correct. The ADSB coverage in FR24 isn't representative of the ADSB coverage that ATC gets. Yes the STCA works in Class G airspace (the ATC system itself doesn't actually know what class of airspace the aircraft is in), however it has its limitations. The STCA has a 90 second look ahead, and its looking for if the aircraft getting to within 4.8NM of each other and 1000ft. It will only work if at least one of the aircraft is coupled up to a flight plan, and will only work if both aircraft are the same type of surveillance (ie ADSB/ADSB, or SSR/SSR, not one ADSB and one SSR). There are STCA inhibition areas around aerodromes, as aircraft are regularly operating very close there and we would constantly get false alerts. Most controllers try and keep an eye on IFR aircraft at an uncontrolled aerodrome and will give a safety alert if the aircraft look like they may collide, however when you are monitoring 1000 square miles of airspace with dozens of aerodromes you cant possibly be watching everything at once. Also operations in class G airspace tend to get very close to each other, so you get used to seeing aircraft in very close proximity.
That's very much for your reply.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:46
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Qantas and other large aircraft typically operate in class C airspace where ATC do separate the aircraft. However there are places where they operate in Class G and have to provide their own separation. They do have TCAS as a backup.
Ballina, Ayers Rock, Proserpine, Maroochydore when the tower is closed, Hobart when the tower is closed, Launceston when the tower is closed, Avalon when the tower is closed and thats not including any of the airports in WA! At those places TCAS is not a backup, it becomes the primary method of separation if the conditions are IFR and that is assuming there is no VFR scud running who is not using a transponder. If Ballina keeps some of the airline COO's awake at night this accident should make them catatonic with sleep deprivation.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:50
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Ballina, Ayers Rock, Proserpine, Maroochydore when the tower is closed, Hobart when the tower is closed, Launceston when the tower is closed, Avalon when the tower is closed and thats not including any of the airports in WA! At those places TCAS is not a backup, it becomes the primary method of separation if the conditions are IFR and that is assuming there is no VFR scud running who is not using a transponder. If Ballina keeps some of the airline COO's awake at night this accident should make them catatonic with sleep deprivation.
If it is keeping them awake at night due to the risk then I would suggest they cease operating into those places. A tower very well may be a smart idea in those places however no one seems willing to pay for it.....
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 05:56
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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If it is keeping them awake at night due to the risk then I would suggest they cease operating into those places. A tower very well may be a smart idea in those places however no one seems willing to pay for it.....
Its what has been told to them many many times...
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 06:33
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
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Buy the Oz runways “ADSB in” blue tooth receiver and use that. It’s better than nothing I would think.

If I was flying IFR OCTA I’d use one.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 06:58
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
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From what I saw in my PPL training days, many instructors are using tablets with EFBs.

Correct me if I'm wrong: traffic shown on Ozrunways is not shown on AvPlan if not using additional ADSB hardware. Why is this not in the interest of both program developers?
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 08:07
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stickshift3000 View Post
From what I saw in my PPL training days, many instructors are using tablets with EFBs.

Correct me if I'm wrong: traffic shown on Ozrunways is not shown on AvPlan if not using additional ADSB hardware. Why is this not in the interest of both program developers?
Commercials.

You can’t rely on it, as it’s simply not safe to do so.

If everyone had ADSB out and a receiver such as a Stratux or Ping into the EFB (for a budget solution), or one of the more expensive Garmin type units, you’ve got half a chance.
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Old 21st Feb 2020, 08:50
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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These should do the job well enough.....The Dynon DRX looks ok.

https://www.ozrunways.com/store/adsb/
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