View Poll Results: Who would jon Cathay Pacific regardless of the present IFALPA Recruitment Ban
Yes
324
62.67%
NO
149
28.82%
NOT SURE
44
8.51%
Voters: 517. This poll is closed
Who Wants to join CATHAY!!!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lan Kwai Fong
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who Wants to join CATHAY!!!!!
Who would join Cathay?
Yes
NO
NOT SURE
This post in Fragrant Harbour will just get attacked by highly strung unionists , but regardless of the present recruitment ban placed on Cathay Pacific by the IFALPA , who would join Cathay if given the chance?
The ban has been an ongoing issue for more than twelve months. I agree the 49’ers need the support but I disagree with asking other people to take the stand for the cause.
For many years Australia and New Zealand have been an excellent source to recruit pilots from for Cathay Pacific. I am just curious to see if the desire to work for Cathay is still strong amongst fellow aviators in the region under the current circumstances.
So guys and girls a show of hands who would join?
Yes
NO
NOT SURE
This post in Fragrant Harbour will just get attacked by highly strung unionists , but regardless of the present recruitment ban placed on Cathay Pacific by the IFALPA , who would join Cathay if given the chance?
The ban has been an ongoing issue for more than twelve months. I agree the 49’ers need the support but I disagree with asking other people to take the stand for the cause.
For many years Australia and New Zealand have been an excellent source to recruit pilots from for Cathay Pacific. I am just curious to see if the desire to work for Cathay is still strong amongst fellow aviators in the region under the current circumstances.
So guys and girls a show of hands who would join?
Last edited by BanBreaker; 12th Aug 2002 at 07:36.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A bit of a farce
The recruitment ban is a demonstration of hypocrisy at it's best.
People over there are still accepting upgrades while trying to enforce a recruitment ban. How does that work?
Shouldn't those with a true conscience refuse to be upgraded in order to keep the balance?
What do you all think?
People over there are still accepting upgrades while trying to enforce a recruitment ban. How does that work?
Shouldn't those with a true conscience refuse to be upgraded in order to keep the balance?
What do you all think?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Extremists!
Ban-breaker-boy:
Agree with your sentiments and stance on the ban BUT extremists from AOA, Management, or New Joiners are not required at the moment.
Support for the 49ers is strong...... support for the ban is not as strong...... but it is still there; esp amongst australians.
If you are new here, I suggest you keep you head down and nose clean until you know what youre 'stirring' may get you in for. Dont wrestle the pig my friend: 1. the pig likes it, 2. you always end up covered in ****.
Your HA HA signature block is inflamatory and frankly not at all constructive! When this fiasco is over we all at CX will need a pilot body/union to negotiate our contracts. Whether it is the current AOA maybe arguable but either way YOU will need that body too! Think about that for a bit and maybe ask those of us who are 'on your side'.
If youve just joined in the past month then trust me dont go to LKF with that chip on your shoulder..... and steer well clear of stormies & als diner.
Just friendly advice my friend
Agree with your sentiments and stance on the ban BUT extremists from AOA, Management, or New Joiners are not required at the moment.
Support for the 49ers is strong...... support for the ban is not as strong...... but it is still there; esp amongst australians.
If you are new here, I suggest you keep you head down and nose clean until you know what youre 'stirring' may get you in for. Dont wrestle the pig my friend: 1. the pig likes it, 2. you always end up covered in ****.
Your HA HA signature block is inflamatory and frankly not at all constructive! When this fiasco is over we all at CX will need a pilot body/union to negotiate our contracts. Whether it is the current AOA maybe arguable but either way YOU will need that body too! Think about that for a bit and maybe ask those of us who are 'on your side'.
If youve just joined in the past month then trust me dont go to LKF with that chip on your shoulder..... and steer well clear of stormies & als diner.
Just friendly advice my friend
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lan Kwai Fong
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All Ears!
Point taken Wistlingdixy
I understand what you are saying, points noted and taken. Just need to get some feed back from fellow aviators within the industry because this whole recruitment ban has been very one sided and as much as it’s affecting everyone at Cathay , it’s also affecting hard working guys that really want to work for the company.
There needs to be a voice from they other side saying "Hey we like this company and we still really want a career here."
I would like to see everyone under a common umbrella, that would be ideal.
Lets hope things resolve soon , because they’ve been going on for far to long!
I understand what you are saying, points noted and taken. Just need to get some feed back from fellow aviators within the industry because this whole recruitment ban has been very one sided and as much as it’s affecting everyone at Cathay , it’s also affecting hard working guys that really want to work for the company.
There needs to be a voice from they other side saying "Hey we like this company and we still really want a career here."
I would like to see everyone under a common umbrella, that would be ideal.
Lets hope things resolve soon , because they’ve been going on for far to long!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't blame the AOA only for the recruitment ban. You must also blame the company Cathay Pacific Airways, for not following status quo and following the D&G procedure laid down in the C.O.S.
Sure the AOA voted for industrial action, hey which pilot body or group hasn't in the last decade, most if not all companies only seem to listen when a unified workforce stand up and say enoughs enough, lets get this fixed.
If you have just joined cx as a s/o then you can thank the AOA for negotiating a fairer deal for new joiners like the s/o's as up to only a few years ago they had the same ****ty deal that the new joiners in QF get ( reduced salary and no seniority # until checked to line). Now days s/o's get full pay from the day they arrive in adelaide, they get relocation allowance of HKD$10,000 for the hassle of having to go to adelaide and hong kong, they also get a small allowance in YPAD of approx AUD$ 500. Then they get to hongkers and get an interest free loan of another HKD$ 100000 to help them out, then after 2 years service they get full housing allowance to rent or buy, now I don't know if you understand what HKD$ 41,500 get you per month but it is nearly if not more than your monthly salary. All of which was fairly negotiated between the company and the AOA.
If you happen to want to join the aoa but want to sit out the present dilema, that is your choice, however, the day will come when your conditions are under threat, and I look forward to being the fly on the wall when you go up to the 3rd floor and ask for a fair deal.
Remember the company only seems to like talking /fighting with the union.
My idea would be that if you dont want to be in the aoa then if you want to accept the increases to your COS you should pay the aoa the 4 % and say thankyou!
Sure the AOA voted for industrial action, hey which pilot body or group hasn't in the last decade, most if not all companies only seem to listen when a unified workforce stand up and say enoughs enough, lets get this fixed.
If you have just joined cx as a s/o then you can thank the AOA for negotiating a fairer deal for new joiners like the s/o's as up to only a few years ago they had the same ****ty deal that the new joiners in QF get ( reduced salary and no seniority # until checked to line). Now days s/o's get full pay from the day they arrive in adelaide, they get relocation allowance of HKD$10,000 for the hassle of having to go to adelaide and hong kong, they also get a small allowance in YPAD of approx AUD$ 500. Then they get to hongkers and get an interest free loan of another HKD$ 100000 to help them out, then after 2 years service they get full housing allowance to rent or buy, now I don't know if you understand what HKD$ 41,500 get you per month but it is nearly if not more than your monthly salary. All of which was fairly negotiated between the company and the AOA.
If you happen to want to join the aoa but want to sit out the present dilema, that is your choice, however, the day will come when your conditions are under threat, and I look forward to being the fly on the wall when you go up to the 3rd floor and ask for a fair deal.
Remember the company only seems to like talking /fighting with the union.
My idea would be that if you dont want to be in the aoa then if you want to accept the increases to your COS you should pay the aoa the 4 % and say thankyou!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: the world
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HVY
I think the point of all this is that it alienates the new 2nd officers from the AOA when I am sure that most would join and support the AOA in its attempts to keep/get better conditions.
I think the point of all this is that it alienates the new 2nd officers from the AOA when I am sure that most would join and support the AOA in its attempts to keep/get better conditions.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: All over the show like a madwomans crap
Posts: 494
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Backspace, that is not the point unfortunately. If they really wanted to support the AOA, they would not go to CX, yet. The AOA is trying to apply pressure to the company for several reasons, not least of which is the 49'ers. To try and acheive this, the recruitment ban was established. Now, if the pilots who have flown in the face (no pun intended) of the ban were not so short sighted, then likely this would already be over. But, they have gone, and so the position of the overall pilot body is weakened. So, in turn this ban goes on. I am not a pilot with CX, would like to be, but will wait until this is resolved as I can see the new joiners getting a big shafting, probably not long after this is resolved, when there will be A scale, B scale and then C scale, and that won't be worth it.
Banbreaker, I know what you are saying, but if you really want a career there, then why undermine your very own future earnings and stable career path to go early? If you are "Cathay" materiel then they will wait for you too!
18 wheeler, a very good point made, regarding the companys instrangience towards the pilots. Another fine example of drive by management!
Banbreaker, I know what you are saying, but if you really want a career there, then why undermine your very own future earnings and stable career path to go early? If you are "Cathay" materiel then they will wait for you too!
18 wheeler, a very good point made, regarding the companys instrangience towards the pilots. Another fine example of drive by management!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: the world
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nosegear
The point is that there are people taking the jobs. The company is not short of applicants or people accepting and you are right the position of the AOA is weakened by this. This should be enough of a hint to the AOA to change their tack and try something that is effective, whatever that may be.
That I believe should be to enlist all the new hires into the AOA and put themselves in a stronger position rather than an ever weakening one.
The point is that there are people taking the jobs. The company is not short of applicants or people accepting and you are right the position of the AOA is weakened by this. This should be enough of a hint to the AOA to change their tack and try something that is effective, whatever that may be.
That I believe should be to enlist all the new hires into the AOA and put themselves in a stronger position rather than an ever weakening one.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lan Kwai Fong
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Valid Points
Some intelligent valid points spoken.
A good idea would be to enlist the new joiners into the AOA and have a larger stronger pilot body, then take another stance with industrial action such as work to the rule.
I believe a new tactic such as work to the rule and increasing support with new joiners included in the AOA, would be an effective way to apply pressure to achieve the desired results.
Regardless of the morals behind a “Recruitment Ban” and weather or not a person should or should not join, the fact is they are ineffective and people are still very willing to join the company.
There has to be a better and more effective option, rather than splitting the pilot body even further and not achieving the required objectives.
Suggestions anyone?
A good idea would be to enlist the new joiners into the AOA and have a larger stronger pilot body, then take another stance with industrial action such as work to the rule.
I believe a new tactic such as work to the rule and increasing support with new joiners included in the AOA, would be an effective way to apply pressure to achieve the desired results.
Regardless of the morals behind a “Recruitment Ban” and weather or not a person should or should not join, the fact is they are ineffective and people are still very willing to join the company.
There has to be a better and more effective option, rather than splitting the pilot body even further and not achieving the required objectives.
Suggestions anyone?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey....
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the history of aviation industrial relations there has never been an effective ban, in terms of stopping new joiners........ whether it is effective as a tool to force the management to talks is of course another story. I guess the question is how long can each side hold out?
Question: Can the company afford the statis quo? Answer: Yes (and a healthy quarterly profit to boot.... 9 new acft due in the next 2 yrs; yep, they are really hurting)
Question: Can the AOA/49ers afford the statis quo? Answer: No (In my opinion)
Each new joiner equals HKG$15360 per year to the union in fees, let alone support for the further action ND & JF are proposing. (SCMP article)
235 new joiners x 15360 = HKG$3,609,300 per year (thats half a million US$ per year)*
(*Figures based on current recruitment until end of 2003, assuming ban still in effect and current 4% union fees.)
Its a mystery.
Question: Can the company afford the statis quo? Answer: Yes (and a healthy quarterly profit to boot.... 9 new acft due in the next 2 yrs; yep, they are really hurting)
Question: Can the AOA/49ers afford the statis quo? Answer: No (In my opinion)
Each new joiner equals HKG$15360 per year to the union in fees, let alone support for the further action ND & JF are proposing. (SCMP article)
235 new joiners x 15360 = HKG$3,609,300 per year (thats half a million US$ per year)*
(*Figures based on current recruitment until end of 2003, assuming ban still in effect and current 4% union fees.)
Its a mystery.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: everywhere
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nose Gear
Some of us can't wait indefinetly. Some us have not flown since September 2001 (Ansett) and are loosing currency and hence employablility. If you look at the contract web sites for pilots you we see they all ask how many hours flown in the last 6 months or last 12 months. Soon the answer will be zero/zero. Some of us see Cathay as the only chance to fly again, and we are being asked not to apply. Just how long do you expect us to wait with absolutley no sign of a change in the status quo?
Some of us can't wait indefinetly. Some us have not flown since September 2001 (Ansett) and are loosing currency and hence employablility. If you look at the contract web sites for pilots you we see they all ask how many hours flown in the last 6 months or last 12 months. Soon the answer will be zero/zero. Some of us see Cathay as the only chance to fly again, and we are being asked not to apply. Just how long do you expect us to wait with absolutley no sign of a change in the status quo?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ban is immoral and hypocritical. The AOA, which represents some of the best paid pilots in the world, has been taking industrial action against the Company for ten long boring years. The pilot body at CX is split, started with introduction of B scale, then basings, then ASL now this farce. During all the earlier company actions which caused those splits there prevailed an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. The sad aspects of the dispute at CX, well the AOA think there is a dispute CX management probably don't, is twofold. First the 49ers have become martyrs to union ineptitude and second the real reasons behind the unhappiness are fading into oblivion. The industrial situation in Hong Kong has been touted as the reason why the union will not strike. Well that in itself is a fabrication. There have been strikes in Hong Kong, some even successful. However, under the contract terms for all CX employees either the employee or the Company can cancel the contract with three months notice or payment in lieu and no reason has to be given. Theres the rub. If the almost 400 of the 1600 pilots who seem to support ND to the point of lunacy follow him over the cliff they will be terminated along with the 49ers. The other 1200 or so pilots will keep operating, their positions will be filled easily and the Company will hardly even feel it. Probably help the bottom line. It's a pity to me that this post was raised in the Antipodean forum. Would have preferred the rubbish to follow my post to stay in Fragrant Harbour. Good luck to all. All CX courses are full to next year and the interviews are chocka block. I strongly recommend all who wish to join CX to, at least, come for the second interview and then make a decision based on information you can easily get from your fellow pilots up here.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insight!!!
Read this post and thought of some things that i would like to pass on to those looking into Cathay....
I am an Aussie FO (ex GA/Regional) up here in Hongkers and although i dont really agree with this ban i can see the purpose. We dont have many industrial options here and some of these silly games that we get up to are out of necessity rather than for the hell of it. It is though, very unfortunate that some great pilots are affected by this ban and instead of hurting the company it is hurting those pilots.
I would just say that if you are thinking about joing the mayhem up here have a really good think about it. The union ban is a big thing and i can tell you in some countries we fly to, they will make you liable for any problems that are caused by your aircraft and as has happened in the past some unions have managed to save some asses. Another point is that Hong Kong is a very difficult place to live in as it is, the locals here dont want us, the management hate us and our own ground staff hate us too!!! Now add to this half the pilot population that will make life more difficult, makes for some very uncomfortable conditions for the new joiners!!! Remember too that alot of our Check+Trainers are avid union members and have lost close friends in the 49ers, can imagine what they will think.
The IALPA ban was imposed after some advice from IALPA and as i said i dont really agree with it, i have to go along with the unions advice because i do believe we have to fight the greed of our management and their total disregard for our contract and Conditions of Service. You just have to look to the USA at Worldcom and the likes of Enron to realise that these CEOs will do and say about anything to line their own pockets and that of their shareholders............stuff the workers!!!!!!!!!
So, have a good long term look at this before just jumping in. If you think still that you need to get the job then good luck, i for one would never call you a scab, i just felt that i needed to pass on to you some of the realities you will face. Remember that if it does prove to be too much crap for you to handle, youll have an international ban hanging over your head and you just have to ask an ex Ansett pilot what that feels like now!!!!
I am an Aussie FO (ex GA/Regional) up here in Hongkers and although i dont really agree with this ban i can see the purpose. We dont have many industrial options here and some of these silly games that we get up to are out of necessity rather than for the hell of it. It is though, very unfortunate that some great pilots are affected by this ban and instead of hurting the company it is hurting those pilots.
I would just say that if you are thinking about joing the mayhem up here have a really good think about it. The union ban is a big thing and i can tell you in some countries we fly to, they will make you liable for any problems that are caused by your aircraft and as has happened in the past some unions have managed to save some asses. Another point is that Hong Kong is a very difficult place to live in as it is, the locals here dont want us, the management hate us and our own ground staff hate us too!!! Now add to this half the pilot population that will make life more difficult, makes for some very uncomfortable conditions for the new joiners!!! Remember too that alot of our Check+Trainers are avid union members and have lost close friends in the 49ers, can imagine what they will think.
The IALPA ban was imposed after some advice from IALPA and as i said i dont really agree with it, i have to go along with the unions advice because i do believe we have to fight the greed of our management and their total disregard for our contract and Conditions of Service. You just have to look to the USA at Worldcom and the likes of Enron to realise that these CEOs will do and say about anything to line their own pockets and that of their shareholders............stuff the workers!!!!!!!!!
So, have a good long term look at this before just jumping in. If you think still that you need to get the job then good luck, i for one would never call you a scab, i just felt that i needed to pass on to you some of the realities you will face. Remember that if it does prove to be too much crap for you to handle, youll have an international ban hanging over your head and you just have to ask an ex Ansett pilot what that feels like now!!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lan Kwai Fong
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Together Guys
I’m glad that this post has been quite constructive and all the opinions are valid and informative.
The pole itself shows that people are going to join regardless, numbers , statisticians and history will tell you this.
Bottom line is, right now aviation as a whole is depressed , so people are willing to join the company in order to feed their loved ones.
18 months ago when aviation was booming it would have been a different story, but circumstances prevail and unfortunately the rules are now different.
I don’t appose unions nor their objectives, most new joiners would even part with their hard earned dollars in order to support the 49’ers given the opportunity. For the rest of my career I would pay 5 % to help those guys.
As they say in the western movies a retreat and regroup is required with a new set of objectives, in order to meet the required deadlines.
I know that not all of the AOA members hate new joiners, and I hope we can one day work together towards a common goal with the pilots’ best interest at heart.
Enough pilots already have been hurt by these unfortunate events, lets’ make some new tactics, join together and work for positive results.
It’s been to long guys, I hope we can get the best outcome for everyone.
BanBreaker.
The pole itself shows that people are going to join regardless, numbers , statisticians and history will tell you this.
Bottom line is, right now aviation as a whole is depressed , so people are willing to join the company in order to feed their loved ones.
18 months ago when aviation was booming it would have been a different story, but circumstances prevail and unfortunately the rules are now different.
I don’t appose unions nor their objectives, most new joiners would even part with their hard earned dollars in order to support the 49’ers given the opportunity. For the rest of my career I would pay 5 % to help those guys.
As they say in the western movies a retreat and regroup is required with a new set of objectives, in order to meet the required deadlines.
I know that not all of the AOA members hate new joiners, and I hope we can one day work together towards a common goal with the pilots’ best interest at heart.
Enough pilots already have been hurt by these unfortunate events, lets’ make some new tactics, join together and work for positive results.
It’s been to long guys, I hope we can get the best outcome for everyone.
BanBreaker.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey....
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Point of Order Mr Chairman,
Tifters ol'bean, dont disagree with your sentiment but the Management, Groundstaff and Hong Kong locals dont hate Cathay Pilots............
..........the hate the union activities!
Have you been into the city lately. The 2nd question I get nowdays is "are you in the union"...... people know, what they like and dont like (see the post about striking at FH)
People in HKG dont give a toss about the ban; all they see is a union holding HKG to ransom (nice spin from the company I suspect)
Amusingly I have seen a few AOA boys deny their membership to avoid a mainly expat angst.
Tifters ol'bean, dont disagree with your sentiment but the Management, Groundstaff and Hong Kong locals dont hate Cathay Pilots............
..........the hate the union activities!
Have you been into the city lately. The 2nd question I get nowdays is "are you in the union"...... people know, what they like and dont like (see the post about striking at FH)
People in HKG dont give a toss about the ban; all they see is a union holding HKG to ransom (nice spin from the company I suspect)
Amusingly I have seen a few AOA boys deny their membership to avoid a mainly expat angst.