View Poll Results: Who would jon Cathay Pacific regardless of the present IFALPA Recruitment Ban
Yes
324
62.67%
NO
149
28.82%
NOT SURE
44
8.51%
Voters: 517. This poll is closed
Who Wants to join CATHAY!!!!!
Join Date: May 2002
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When you consider around 56% of CX workforce earn less than HKD10 000 per month, and often have to work 6 days. They get no expat perks like housing, education and only local super. They do have little sympathy for union activities and are slowly but certainly being isolated completely from the pilot body. The spin from the company which usually only quotes the top few percentile of wage earners in the pilots contributes to their feeling of angst. There are obviously issues to be addressed at the company but trying to negotiate behind the threat of increased action is playing into the CX managements hands both in the company and in the population at large in Honkers. Make a few concessions (more), stop industrial action and go back to the table. IMHO the management are holding not only the Aces but also all the trumps in this 'dispute'.
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Tifters,
You seem to imply that all ex-Ansett pilots fall into the 'Scab' mould!
I think you mean the ones who joined AN during the 89 dispute up to june 90. If you think that the Scab label has hurt them then think again my friend, it is mostly ex AN Captains who are picking up the contract work and jobs with SQ, Korean and many other Airlines around the globe. Sure none of them are getting a look in with VB, However, It would appear that the other Airlines dont really care about your past just your experience level and currency
Again i really hope your not calling the non Dispute invovled pilots Scabs
Cheers
You seem to imply that all ex-Ansett pilots fall into the 'Scab' mould!
I think you mean the ones who joined AN during the 89 dispute up to june 90. If you think that the Scab label has hurt them then think again my friend, it is mostly ex AN Captains who are picking up the contract work and jobs with SQ, Korean and many other Airlines around the globe. Sure none of them are getting a look in with VB, However, It would appear that the other Airlines dont really care about your past just your experience level and currency
Again i really hope your not calling the non Dispute invovled pilots Scabs
Cheers
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Banbreaker, I know we obviously disagree on how the union should handle the industrial action. The ban sits uncomfortably with myself, however I am trying to look at the big picture. I wonder about your statement regarding the excuse about need to feed one's family as a reason to break the ban. I know that most pilots applying are currently employed, with the possible exception of the Ansett guys, and my sympathy goes out to you (zone included obvously). I would not like to be in your situation, it would be a very tough call, and not one I would like to have to make.
Backspace, you countered your own argument there. Another reason the new s/o's can't help is they are on probation for the first 12 months, so joining the union would probably not be looked upon in a rosy light.
Java, tifters is telling it like it is up in Honkers. You live and socialise with those you work with, and if those you work with don't want to associate with you, then you'll most likely find yourself at a lose end. If you have a wife, then likely she will be quite lonely when you are away on your trips. Please don't take this as a threat, because it is NOT! It IS however what may happen.
Shortly, this has been a good post, with none of the rabid replys so abundant on Fragrant Harbour. But I really have to ask, if you're employed as a pilot by CX, then why are you such a sh!t stirrer? And why would you not want to protect what you already have? Or are you a "newjoiner s/o"? Management maybe? Please, do tell.
Backspace, you countered your own argument there. Another reason the new s/o's can't help is they are on probation for the first 12 months, so joining the union would probably not be looked upon in a rosy light.
Java, tifters is telling it like it is up in Honkers. You live and socialise with those you work with, and if those you work with don't want to associate with you, then you'll most likely find yourself at a lose end. If you have a wife, then likely she will be quite lonely when you are away on your trips. Please don't take this as a threat, because it is NOT! It IS however what may happen.
Shortly, this has been a good post, with none of the rabid replys so abundant on Fragrant Harbour. But I really have to ask, if you're employed as a pilot by CX, then why are you such a sh!t stirrer? And why would you not want to protect what you already have? Or are you a "newjoiner s/o"? Management maybe? Please, do tell.
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Allow me to retort
Couple of quick answers...yes i am in the union and am a firm believer in them. I voted against contract compliance last year as i didnt think it was working, however i wont quit the union as i have to look at the big picture, we must stop these greedy corporations degrading our industry for the quick buck!!!!
Secondly, absolutely not calling all ex AN guys scabs, in fact i havent called any of them scabs, i was mearly pointing out the trouble alot of them have had finding steady employment back in aviation without having to work for some Asian carriers that have safety records second to none.
My post was a heads up, things arent all rosey up here and i figure the new joiners will find it hard going at times, especially from the hard liners.
If you still want to join then fine but as someone has stated we need balanced reporting and if you are smart you must get maximum information before making such an important decision.
Secondly, absolutely not calling all ex AN guys scabs, in fact i havent called any of them scabs, i was mearly pointing out the trouble alot of them have had finding steady employment back in aviation without having to work for some Asian carriers that have safety records second to none.
My post was a heads up, things arent all rosey up here and i figure the new joiners will find it hard going at times, especially from the hard liners.
If you still want to join then fine but as someone has stated we need balanced reporting and if you are smart you must get maximum information before making such an important decision.
This is a good thread.
I disagree with Shortly on one matter only; namely that this discussion should be on Fragrant Harbour. The reason being that riff raff like 411A don't seem to have found it yet.
In addition, this thread has particular relevance to Oz given the huge amount of turmoil that has taken place in Oz aviation since the late 80's, the legacy it has left behind and the current employment prospects for a large number of highly qualified and motivated people who love aviation.
CX has a rich goldmine in which to prospect.
Shortly is absolutely correct when he describes the varied views and perspectives that exist within the CX pilot body. This is however a microcosm of what HK is actually like at every level.
I have studied this place for more years than I care to remember. I have seen the good old days when management couldn't get us pay increases and bonusues quickly enough to more recent times when reality set in.
It is how everyone has reacted to these changes that has dissappointed me.
The late Peter Sutch (MD of CX and Chairman of Swire Group)was a wonderful man and highly thought of by all. I do have to wonder,however, if he would be so kindly thought of if he had Eddington's job or now Turnbull's job.
Management has disappointed me because they didn't have the courage to restructure the business properly in the first place. The root cause of a lot of trouble and the divisions in the pilot body is due to the A & B scale and all the other permutations that have happened since. I do not believe in my heart that this complexity was created by management to divide and conquer. A company like Swire does not change from being a benevolent employer into a conniving, penny pinching scrooge in a couple of years.
One of the posts started comparing management to the likes of Enron, Worldcom and Global Crossing. I can assure any of you young blokes in the company that the Turnbulls, Tylers and Rhodes of this company do not make big bucks.
I think the real parting of the ways came about when the AOA publicly pronounced CX management unfit to run the business.
An insult is an insult in any culture.
The AOA has got it fundamentally wrong. They can huff and puff all they want and they will get support from a lot of the guys who believe that a union is necessary even though the current situation seems untenable.
There are a large bunch of guys who would happily pay the 5% to support the 49'ers as a stand alone issue. The problem is that issue cannot be resolved in the current framework.
What the pilots need are advocates and that does not equal AOA as it currently stands. The AOA cannot advocate anything as it does not have anyone to advocate to. Management has all the cards. HK is what it is. CX will be here after we are all dead.
Not to prattle on too long...the AOA is painted into a corner.
Turnbull will not talk to Demery. Demery has just been re-elected. A goodly portion of the senior guys are out of here over the next 3-4 years. Many members of the AOA don't like the ban etc but believe they have no alternative but the AOA as an advocate but without anyone to advocate to.
In summary, it is a complex family squabble. The only way to bring some closure that returns some advocacy power to a pilot representative body is a public apology (hardly likely) to management. Who knows it may even lead to a review for the 49'ers plus plus.
For those wanting to join, make your own decision. The reality is HK isn't much of a place to raise a family these days but you will not be treated as a leper afterall most pilots are pretty decent sorts.
I disagree with Shortly on one matter only; namely that this discussion should be on Fragrant Harbour. The reason being that riff raff like 411A don't seem to have found it yet.
In addition, this thread has particular relevance to Oz given the huge amount of turmoil that has taken place in Oz aviation since the late 80's, the legacy it has left behind and the current employment prospects for a large number of highly qualified and motivated people who love aviation.
CX has a rich goldmine in which to prospect.
Shortly is absolutely correct when he describes the varied views and perspectives that exist within the CX pilot body. This is however a microcosm of what HK is actually like at every level.
I have studied this place for more years than I care to remember. I have seen the good old days when management couldn't get us pay increases and bonusues quickly enough to more recent times when reality set in.
It is how everyone has reacted to these changes that has dissappointed me.
The late Peter Sutch (MD of CX and Chairman of Swire Group)was a wonderful man and highly thought of by all. I do have to wonder,however, if he would be so kindly thought of if he had Eddington's job or now Turnbull's job.
Management has disappointed me because they didn't have the courage to restructure the business properly in the first place. The root cause of a lot of trouble and the divisions in the pilot body is due to the A & B scale and all the other permutations that have happened since. I do not believe in my heart that this complexity was created by management to divide and conquer. A company like Swire does not change from being a benevolent employer into a conniving, penny pinching scrooge in a couple of years.
One of the posts started comparing management to the likes of Enron, Worldcom and Global Crossing. I can assure any of you young blokes in the company that the Turnbulls, Tylers and Rhodes of this company do not make big bucks.
I think the real parting of the ways came about when the AOA publicly pronounced CX management unfit to run the business.
An insult is an insult in any culture.
The AOA has got it fundamentally wrong. They can huff and puff all they want and they will get support from a lot of the guys who believe that a union is necessary even though the current situation seems untenable.
There are a large bunch of guys who would happily pay the 5% to support the 49'ers as a stand alone issue. The problem is that issue cannot be resolved in the current framework.
What the pilots need are advocates and that does not equal AOA as it currently stands. The AOA cannot advocate anything as it does not have anyone to advocate to. Management has all the cards. HK is what it is. CX will be here after we are all dead.
Not to prattle on too long...the AOA is painted into a corner.
Turnbull will not talk to Demery. Demery has just been re-elected. A goodly portion of the senior guys are out of here over the next 3-4 years. Many members of the AOA don't like the ban etc but believe they have no alternative but the AOA as an advocate but without anyone to advocate to.
In summary, it is a complex family squabble. The only way to bring some closure that returns some advocacy power to a pilot representative body is a public apology (hardly likely) to management. Who knows it may even lead to a review for the 49'ers plus plus.
For those wanting to join, make your own decision. The reality is HK isn't much of a place to raise a family these days but you will not be treated as a leper afterall most pilots are pretty decent sorts.
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Nosegear, call me what you will. Sorry I disagree with your position on the AOA's actions. And I am trying to protect what I have before the part time union management get a completely new deal imposed on all of us. To suggest that there is no social life in Honkers because of the ban is ludicrous. There are many quite reasonably priced sporting and social clubs who don't care where you work let alone when you joined. There are professional bodies associated with aviation which will likewise not be bothered by such data. Within twelve months all will be forgiven and you will be welcomed into the AOA, or the AOA will be no more. I am calling it as I see it after a long time in this game. I feel great sympathy for the 49ers as I do for those many more gutted in 89. I don't want the 49ers to become 359ers.
Last edited by shortly; 14th Aug 2002 at 10:54.
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Like many others, I aspire to eventually fly in an airline. To me it is the pinnacle of one's aviation career (idealistic... maybe.) It is a simple desire that I have come to realise is more complicated than I could possibly imagine, having recently being employed. I value posts like this as it provides me with an insight into how the real world is. 
I am still trying to grasp the ideals behind each side of this and many other disputes, including the 1989 problems, maybe I will never understand, but i hope that, unlike 1989, there will be a favourable outcome for all.
Finally, although I have read bits and pieces here and there about the 49ers and 1989, I still feel like I lack all the information. Could anyone please direct myself and others to a place where we can find detailed and informative facts about both disputes.
Cheers to all.
I am still trying to grasp the ideals behind each side of this and many other disputes, including the 1989 problems, maybe I will never understand, but i hope that, unlike 1989, there will be a favourable outcome for all.
Finally, although I have read bits and pieces here and there about the 49ers and 1989, I still feel like I lack all the information. Could anyone please direct myself and others to a place where we can find detailed and informative facts about both disputes.
Cheers to all.
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LET’S FIND SOME ALTERNATIVES
Like most things in life there are two sides to the coin and it’s good to receive so much feed back on this topic, as it does in a way affect both the AOA members, CX pilots and the new joiners in their new job.
Since there is still a strong supply of people willing to join Cathay under the Ban and people are seemingly going to join regardless, what other alternatives are there to make the best outcome for everyone? There's no need to play havok with additional peoples careers.
Surely amongst the people on this forum we can come up with some constructive ways or suggestions for the AOA, that could help put an end to all this.
Like CRM, pool the resources and lets try an establish some positive alternatives for this whole sour situation.
Maybe there are some possible “outs” that no one has thought of as yet, even people in the AOA would like to see this ban abolished, if anyone has a better plan of attack lets hear it.
Positive feed back appreciated.
Since there is still a strong supply of people willing to join Cathay under the Ban and people are seemingly going to join regardless, what other alternatives are there to make the best outcome for everyone? There's no need to play havok with additional peoples careers.
Surely amongst the people on this forum we can come up with some constructive ways or suggestions for the AOA, that could help put an end to all this.
Like CRM, pool the resources and lets try an establish some positive alternatives for this whole sour situation.
Maybe there are some possible “outs” that no one has thought of as yet, even people in the AOA would like to see this ban abolished, if anyone has a better plan of attack lets hear it.
Positive feed back appreciated.
Just an other digit
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Going back a long way to titfers at the top of this page; he said -
'Remember too that alot of our Check+Trainers are avid union members and have lost close friends in the 49ers, can imagine what they will think"
A lot of them are not.
And you can be sure that the company will be very carefully watching the C&T results for new joiners...
This does not make me a CX supporter, or pro-AOA - just a realist.
'Remember too that alot of our Check+Trainers are avid union members and have lost close friends in the 49ers, can imagine what they will think"
A lot of them are not.
And you can be sure that the company will be very carefully watching the C&T results for new joiners...
This does not make me a CX supporter, or pro-AOA - just a realist.
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Ansett is not the only casualty in the last year. Canada is not exactly ripe with aviation jobs after Canada 3000 went out of business. 550 pilots, of which maybe over 200 are working again finally. Air Canada may hire 60-80 before christmas. Westjet is a slow trickle. And then there is..... nope, that's it!
Always wanted to be at Cathay. Prospects are nil in Canada. Haven't worked in almost a year.
I have friends who were 49's. I am pro-union, always have been. I feel this ban bites itself in the ass by upgrading captains every day!
I will join given the opportunity. (I also support everything the union is trying to do, but that may be a moot point)
Always wanted to be at Cathay. Prospects are nil in Canada. Haven't worked in almost a year.
I have friends who were 49's. I am pro-union, always have been. I feel this ban bites itself in the ass by upgrading captains every day!
I will join given the opportunity. (I also support everything the union is trying to do, but that may be a moot point)
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I look at this, from the outside, and I see many similarities between this situation and Australian aviation n 1989.
There are pilots in HK saying 'Don't come here' but at the same time accepting upgrades. I took that from a previous post, so if it's incorrect, don't bother reading any further.
In Oz in 1989, we had captains saying you'll be a $cab if you join an airline, but they were going off taking commands in far flung parts of the world, over local FO's who became bitter. But, and here's the rub, they were quite open in saying that they were only there till they could get back to Australia in their previous positions. History reveals that they're still waiting, but that's another story.
Now this could be categorized as hypocrisy.
I saw in a previous post that many C & T guys are union members, and the veiled threat was there that you wouldn't pass a check if you joined now.
These threats have all been made before down in Australia in 1989. I could see CX mgt sacking a checkie if he played a hard line on political grounds, and he'd deserve it. If he can't separate politics and a pilot's ability, he shouldn't be there in the first place.
What CX pilots should/must realize is that they can't draw people who wan to join the company into a brawl that just doesn't concern them, and was pre-existing.
There are pilots in HK saying 'Don't come here' but at the same time accepting upgrades. I took that from a previous post, so if it's incorrect, don't bother reading any further.
In Oz in 1989, we had captains saying you'll be a $cab if you join an airline, but they were going off taking commands in far flung parts of the world, over local FO's who became bitter. But, and here's the rub, they were quite open in saying that they were only there till they could get back to Australia in their previous positions. History reveals that they're still waiting, but that's another story.
Now this could be categorized as hypocrisy.
I saw in a previous post that many C & T guys are union members, and the veiled threat was there that you wouldn't pass a check if you joined now.
These threats have all been made before down in Australia in 1989. I could see CX mgt sacking a checkie if he played a hard line on political grounds, and he'd deserve it. If he can't separate politics and a pilot's ability, he shouldn't be there in the first place.
What CX pilots should/must realize is that they can't draw people who wan to join the company into a brawl that just doesn't concern them, and was pre-existing.
It's Your Choice, but Don't be Misled
The recruiting ban at Cathay Pacific Airways remains in force and any person breaking it, including “BanBreaker”, will suffer the full consequences as detailed in the IFALPA letter. There is also the aspect of becoming a social leper in the cockpit and in the rather small expatriate Hong Kong community.
A Director of Cathay Pacific recently in a Radio Hong Kong interview was trying to trump-up the amount of Industrial Action that taking place as a justification for management’s continued refusal to talk to the HKAOA. He stated that the recruiting ban was having an effect and was stopping some good pilots from joining but adequate pilots were still joining.
The prospect of suffering at the hands of Check and Training pilot is a non-issue as the Check and Training personnel at Cathay Pacific are of the highest standards and personal integrity. Unfortunately, there are always the odd few that do allow political agenda to influence their judgment but those individuals are either already in management or by ingratiating themselves, hope to achieve such a position soonest.
As a measure of the influence of political and industrial factors in affecting the decision making capability of Cathay management, one needs to look no further than the decisions not to upgrade many Junior F/Os to F/Os and for not upgrading many F/Os to Captain despite these ladies and gentlemen having impeccable check and training records. Upgrades use to depend almost exclusively on performance on the final check. This has now changed. Manager Training Standards explained it like this in the “Crews News” magazine. We look at your training records and the actual check flight itself. We also look at any non-flying behavioural issues that have been communicated to you”. Sounds delightfully innocent, doesn’t it?
The good news is that the President of the AOA said that the time has now come to put up or shut up. He also said that the whole process would be over in one year, one way or the other. Action will be ramped up quickly over the next two months.
The Recruiting Ban is an international embarrassment to the management of Cathay Pacific and is putting them under enormous political and economic pressure. Good pilots are requested to continue observing the ban, so that a quick resolution can be attained.
A Director of Cathay Pacific recently in a Radio Hong Kong interview was trying to trump-up the amount of Industrial Action that taking place as a justification for management’s continued refusal to talk to the HKAOA. He stated that the recruiting ban was having an effect and was stopping some good pilots from joining but adequate pilots were still joining.
The prospect of suffering at the hands of Check and Training pilot is a non-issue as the Check and Training personnel at Cathay Pacific are of the highest standards and personal integrity. Unfortunately, there are always the odd few that do allow political agenda to influence their judgment but those individuals are either already in management or by ingratiating themselves, hope to achieve such a position soonest.
As a measure of the influence of political and industrial factors in affecting the decision making capability of Cathay management, one needs to look no further than the decisions not to upgrade many Junior F/Os to F/Os and for not upgrading many F/Os to Captain despite these ladies and gentlemen having impeccable check and training records. Upgrades use to depend almost exclusively on performance on the final check. This has now changed. Manager Training Standards explained it like this in the “Crews News” magazine. We look at your training records and the actual check flight itself. We also look at any non-flying behavioural issues that have been communicated to you”. Sounds delightfully innocent, doesn’t it?
The good news is that the President of the AOA said that the time has now come to put up or shut up. He also said that the whole process would be over in one year, one way or the other. Action will be ramped up quickly over the next two months.
The Recruiting Ban is an international embarrassment to the management of Cathay Pacific and is putting them under enormous political and economic pressure. Good pilots are requested to continue observing the ban, so that a quick resolution can be attained.
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KGV,
I don't think I've ever posted in that forum!
You must remember that PPRuNe is a forum for opinions as well as rumour. If you have difficulty with that concept, perhaps you shouldn't look here.
I STILL see parallels with the HK situation now and Australian aviation in 1989, and it's called hypocrisy, and an agenda being run by senior pilots to the detriment of junior (joining) pilots.
As for the post suggesting GOOD pilots should stop coming to CX -I don't know what to say. I presume he's suggesting that those who join are less than good. Hmmm. All those who are there and those who refuse to join whilst there is a ban on are guns, and those who defy the ban are duds.
Ever heard of logic??
I don't think I've ever posted in that forum!
You must remember that PPRuNe is a forum for opinions as well as rumour. If you have difficulty with that concept, perhaps you shouldn't look here.
I STILL see parallels with the HK situation now and Australian aviation in 1989, and it's called hypocrisy, and an agenda being run by senior pilots to the detriment of junior (joining) pilots.
As for the post suggesting GOOD pilots should stop coming to CX -I don't know what to say. I presume he's suggesting that those who join are less than good. Hmmm. All those who are there and those who refuse to join whilst there is a ban on are guns, and those who defy the ban are duds.
Ever heard of logic??
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Oh kiZZin old pal, I should remind you that if hypocrisy is involved now in CX, then in 1989 it was on the part of the Fat Man, his puppet the Bedroom Bandicoot, and the Dirty Digger, and the scabs they encouraged to be hypocritical, you, I assume, being one.
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Right and Wrongs
Thank you for the insight FlexibleResponse.
We’ve all read the IFALPA letter and received all the relevant information in regards to the Ban and the consequences, as well as the intimidation that comes from a lot of these posts. There’s nothing here to dispute that. Even though you consider us as being “lesser beings”, I as many others do, still understand your plight and would like to see things resolved.
The idea of the pole shows that in these “uncertain times” people are going to join out of shear necessity rather than making the ideal choice. It’s a shame and not the most ideal situation to be in.
But considering the fact that internal progression is still occurring , the 49’ers are being supported financially and that the only true sacrifice is being asked of people outside the company , many will disrespect this unorthodox request due to the hypocrisy of its nature.
Please try and think of additional solutions and ways around this rather than employing school bully tactics the achieve the results you really want.
Just remember, you are fortunate to be where you are irrespective of the conditions and terms of your employment , it could quite easily be you on the other side of the fence with bills to pay and mouths to feed.
I don’t want this to be a slagging match , I would rather see it as a discussion to find alternative answers.
We’ve all read the IFALPA letter and received all the relevant information in regards to the Ban and the consequences, as well as the intimidation that comes from a lot of these posts. There’s nothing here to dispute that. Even though you consider us as being “lesser beings”, I as many others do, still understand your plight and would like to see things resolved.
The idea of the pole shows that in these “uncertain times” people are going to join out of shear necessity rather than making the ideal choice. It’s a shame and not the most ideal situation to be in.
But considering the fact that internal progression is still occurring , the 49’ers are being supported financially and that the only true sacrifice is being asked of people outside the company , many will disrespect this unorthodox request due to the hypocrisy of its nature.
Please try and think of additional solutions and ways around this rather than employing school bully tactics the achieve the results you really want.
Just remember, you are fortunate to be where you are irrespective of the conditions and terms of your employment , it could quite easily be you on the other side of the fence with bills to pay and mouths to feed.
I don’t want this to be a slagging match , I would rather see it as a discussion to find alternative answers.
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TTT,
It was probably there as well, but it definitely existed where senior pilots were intimidating juniors into not returning to work, and then taking commands o'seas to the detriment of local pilots, and then telling all and sundry that it was only until they could return home to their previous positions.
That was hypocrisy, just as it is hypocrisy in CX now as some accept upgrades whilst 'encouraging' pilots chasing their first airline job not to join CX.
It was probably there as well, but it definitely existed where senior pilots were intimidating juniors into not returning to work, and then taking commands o'seas to the detriment of local pilots, and then telling all and sundry that it was only until they could return home to their previous positions.
That was hypocrisy, just as it is hypocrisy in CX now as some accept upgrades whilst 'encouraging' pilots chasing their first airline job not to join CX.
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Ramped up action?
Flexible Response
Could you enlighten us about 'Ramped up action'
Is this something to do with the courts?
Remember, we dont have access to CPrune and may miss a lot of the debate.
Could you enlighten us about 'Ramped up action'
Is this something to do with the courts?
Remember, we dont have access to CPrune and may miss a lot of the debate.
Last edited by zone; 16th Aug 2002 at 00:13.
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Well heres my 2 cents worth :
1. I won't be updating my CV while the ban is still in effect, or alternatively until such time as IFALPA withdraws their support, or I consider the AOA has become so marginalized that it no longer matters. That's got nothing to do with my opinion of the politics, it's just that I have had few too many warnings from mates up there over the aggro from hard core unionists, I look at the poison that still spills over whenever '89 is mentioned on here, and I just can't be @rsed to get involved with it all to be honest.
2. When I do get my Cathay job, I won't be joining the AOA. I value the advocacy of a union, but there is ****** all point in joining a union who haven't even spoken to management in the last year, and just re elected a leader who management have said point blank they will refuse to negotiate with on any grounds. The main reason for joining a union is to exercise a bit of collective muscle at contract negotiation time after all, but I can't see how giving my money to a crowd that can't even go and speak to the people concerned, is going to help improve my lot.
3. I'd be more than happy to get involved with a new union, that wasn't so tainted from past bitterness and actually had a passing interest in improving the lot of the current batch of employees, instead of flogging a bunch of dead horses (49 of them to be precise ).
1. I won't be updating my CV while the ban is still in effect, or alternatively until such time as IFALPA withdraws their support, or I consider the AOA has become so marginalized that it no longer matters. That's got nothing to do with my opinion of the politics, it's just that I have had few too many warnings from mates up there over the aggro from hard core unionists, I look at the poison that still spills over whenever '89 is mentioned on here, and I just can't be @rsed to get involved with it all to be honest.
2. When I do get my Cathay job, I won't be joining the AOA. I value the advocacy of a union, but there is ****** all point in joining a union who haven't even spoken to management in the last year, and just re elected a leader who management have said point blank they will refuse to negotiate with on any grounds. The main reason for joining a union is to exercise a bit of collective muscle at contract negotiation time after all, but I can't see how giving my money to a crowd that can't even go and speak to the people concerned, is going to help improve my lot.
3. I'd be more than happy to get involved with a new union, that wasn't so tainted from past bitterness and actually had a passing interest in improving the lot of the current batch of employees, instead of flogging a bunch of dead horses (49 of them to be precise ).