Flying School Owner makes AFR rich list
There's money to be made in regulation, too.
The annual remuneration packages published in CASA's Annual Report 2018-19 include:
Shane Carmody: $668,640
Graham Crawford: $503, 785
Jonathan Aleck: $366,395
(See https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/defaul...-2018-2019.pdf Part 7 Appendix B Table B.5. Lots of other 'interesting' information about remuneration there.)
The annual remuneration packages published in CASA's Annual Report 2018-19 include:
Shane Carmody: $668,640
Graham Crawford: $503, 785
Jonathan Aleck: $366,395
(See https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/defaul...-2018-2019.pdf Part 7 Appendix B Table B.5. Lots of other 'interesting' information about remuneration there.)
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Where are Soar students on PPRuNe? Why don't they provide some first hand comments and stories here?
"Those people" are not raising dud invoices...they dont have to. they are DUDS themselves.
And they are all part of a great fraud perpetrated on the uninterested taxpayer and dudded a vital industry.
Its a national scandal.
And they are all part of a great fraud perpetrated on the uninterested taxpayer and dudded a vital industry.
Its a national scandal.
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I resisted the RPC+Nav and pushed on to ppl. Was a while ago now. Unnecessarily long navs and ‘repeats’ blew a hole in my funding though. I’m still not sure what the ‘hourly’ rate is, even now......
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Regarding long navs, I've often met Soar students refuelling at Warrnambool (
)But the cherry on top was hearing one Soar kid trying to cancel his SARTIME on centre. When the controller asked him how far from MB he was, he replied: 50 miles
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WedgeAntilles How did those "repeats" come about? Have you ever challenged your instructor when they requested that you redo a lesson?
Regarding long navs, I've often met Soar students refuelling at Warrnambool ()
But the cherry on top was hearing one Soar kid trying to cancel his SARTIME on centre. When the controller asked him how far from MB he was, he replied: 50 miles
Regarding long navs, I've often met Soar students refuelling at Warrnambool (
)But the cherry on top was hearing one Soar kid trying to cancel his SARTIME on centre. When the controller asked him how far from MB he was, he replied: 50 miles
Before you know it, your census date is passed, and the next tranche of funding has been accessed without the expected progress being attained. This is how $100k gets swallowed so easily.
knowing what I know now makes me quite angry how everything was run.
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We are right here, one of the students (or should I say ex students), we are just listening and watching. we have a lot of stuff going on right now.
Now to begin I am talking on behalf of myself and not the group. The following views are based on MY OPINION and thus my anonymity is to be respected as this is still an ongoing issue. (yes you can PM me and i will respond but ONLY if you are a current student/Ex Student)
First off I would like to clarify some of the things that has been said all over across most of the social media and including here, most people have got the conception that we are after the aviation industry and its too hard and we are the drop outs or something along those lines.
Well to respond to that, most of us are grownups. have full time or part time jobs and have steady income, some of us came out with master degrees, some have PhD's, amazing how we all human beings slander first then sympathize later... we are dedicated people that want to be in the aviation circle, we are doing everything we can to have a career change, it's a small tight nit family that challenges us, it enhances us, it challenged me. I want to give credit where credit is due...
Soar has taught me how to fly, some instructors were EXCELLENT and of course with every "community" there is always a few bad apples who practically will fail you for not having the optional clip on tie as a part of the uniform that's non compulsory in the eyes of the OPS manual, they did teach me how to fly but at what expense? I will tell you; I have a student loan that is close to $80k with an interest rate labelled as "index of inflation" at 1.8%-1.9% every new financial year on top...between $1440 - $1620 in fees on top of the loan you already have(depending who or which department you ask in the government), what do I have? practically a useless RPL and you know what, that licence doesn't even have CTA & CTR nor a flight review to activate it and be usable. what about the RA-AUS RPC then? well that's a whole different kettle of fish to boil, you guys wouldn't know what the hell is RA-AUS and what is it doing in a controlled aerodrome such as Moorabbin, well I will save you the troubles so you don't have to beat around the bush (casa EX69/18). so you might ask "HOW?" well its very simple. I got sucked in. I was one of those originals promised to fly the 172's and the Foxbat as the old mate who could sell ice to an Eskimo (those people know who I'm talking about, cant compromise anyone's identity), he was pitching the course at the time told me this would be temporary, so I believed as you would, they say ignorance is no excuse; well neither is deception.
But 80k and not even a licence I can use unless I pay out of my pocket to get a flight review and having to pay out of my pocket for CTA & CTR just to use the damn RPL is not right... I'm sure there is HEAP's of people who went to other flight schools and had an EASY pass. yes I said EASY pass. because we(the students that are in the group) developed a paranoia towards failure. we have to repeat whole flight again and again.
lets say one of the pre-solo Navs they have...Say NAV 8 - you know your route, you studied the weather, you know the risks, yet somehow you made an oopsie, when you were departing you remained on YMMB TWR freq and you forgot to change/monitor CTR freq until say you were maybe 2 CLEAROFFS (yes clearoffs, the S is Sartime lol) and roughly 30mins at your vixxen with a tas of 82kt , the instructors would let you fly all the way to your destination and then all the way back (120nm). you do absolutely brilliant, but then they mark you as failed and you have to repeat the whole flight, YES the whole flight. that's how I was taught, that's the going norm that they have developed. that's the corporate culture. you aren't to repeat C3.1 judging by the MOS PT 61, you are to repeat the whole flight, again, and again, and again until you are absolutely perfect. Let's be the devil's advocate for a second. you get good, you get perfect at repetition, but again AT WHAT COST?! I was NEVER stopped, NEVER intercepted and in fact I was encouraged to fly more by both BOX HILL AND SOAR, Yes they said repeating the whole flight is necessary despite that you just need to repeat only 1 component demonstrated on your next flight, it is necessary for you to burn a good 3 hours again just to prove competency in the example C3.1 - Operate radio equipment. (yup that's how they operate, that's how they milk you dry), next time you repeat...you get distracted and you dont make a 10nm inbound call, you make it at 8nm and you again have to repeat whole flight, the flight after that you forget to switch the tanks, forget carb heat, forget to have nav lights on, forget whatever. pick something small thats easily fixable but because you haven't performed it then and there...you F'd it.
(bonus points for anyone who can tell me a casa recommended part 141 non integrated syllabus number of navs vs SOAR's Business model) - 8 flights vs 11 flights inc final flight test
Not even going to go into full detail of the whole boxhill-soar marriage that's undivorceable, not going into the 141 non integrated useless RA-AUS hours that wouldn't be employable if fresh graduate with no extra spending involved (they deceived us and said hours are transferable), the whole flight records withholding, say you rage-quit and went elsewhere to study. ha good luck trying to get your flight records.
this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Note: We aren't going after the VSL system. VSL is great. Let's say FTA - they actually graduate pilots with jobs aligned. yet here at soar the closes thing to a job opportunity was the ******** And ********** (which turned out to be a hoax. something to fill the check boxes) so to summarize a course with graduation rate that's so low that you can pick a number on one hand. so we are going after the operator who stole almost 4 years of my life. the operator that basically tarnished my logbook forever. no one in Moorabbin (and I'm sure even in Bankstown) likes soar. Those that want to jump on board with defense of soar have the misconception of us; some kids who defaulted on the bank of mum and dad. yeah okay sure il agree, iv'e defaulted because i come from a place where there is no money and my life isn't about the money, its about the freedom of doing what you love rather than hating every single day of your life. Aviation to me isn't about some high paying job sitting in a cockpit flying at 32,000ft. No, to me its about discipline its about the view, the respect, the scenery that most kids wish to see. its about the freedom. being robbed off that dream makes me very upset.
So what happens now? We fight for right.
Whats our next move? Wait and see,
whats my current job? keep spreading awareness about this horrible operator. (remember, at the top i wrote IN MY OPINION)
Is this because we are sour and bitter?
Nope. Most of us actually somehow went to other flight training providers, paid out of our own pockets and actually passed with flying colors. some were praised as top performers.....but at what cost?
at the cost of being ripped off, going elsewhere and paying more? is that how aviation works? you get robbed twice and that's when you can see the blue sky up?
There are 2 types of instructors. the Vampires who dont teach you S*** which will suck your blood dry and the ones who are genuine disciplined people who truthfully deserve of that title. those that want to teach you that work at soar normally quit a few months after induction. meanwhile other operators that i flew with are career instructors that want to teach and want you to succeed.
If there are students reading this and are unsure how to join the group. You can PM me, if there are people who know how to help and want to join our cause. You can also PM me, if there are people who aren't sure which side of the fence they stand. as someone mentioned above. Our deputy PM of this country endorsed the school of broken dreams, just remember it could be your kid too that's soon to be suffocating from the forever loan that you cannot default on and the loan that prevents you leaving this country until paid out in full.
bonus points: say i do default on this loan, whos paying my bill? you? the tax payer? because this operator already has made the money...
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Great post lowballer. You guys got dealt a **** hand. As much as people can say caveat emptor, both the education and aviation industries are full of sharks just waiting to bite.
I got stung early in my aviation career by a ‘job’ that required training to be paid for. Not nearly on the scale that you’ve been taken for a ride on, but in the same circumstances - imbalance in knowledge and bargaining position coupled with someone unconscionably making money. If it’s any consolation, you’ll never fall for it again. My eyes have been wide open ever since.
I got stung early in my aviation career by a ‘job’ that required training to be paid for. Not nearly on the scale that you’ve been taken for a ride on, but in the same circumstances - imbalance in knowledge and bargaining position coupled with someone unconscionably making money. If it’s any consolation, you’ll never fall for it again. My eyes have been wide open ever since.
If this is true as alleged this is the most depressing post I have ever read about Australian Aviation.Evil bastards. Also, did the regulator not know or care? What about the RAA? Surely there must have been bar room talk - rumours, yet nobody blew the whistle or tried to put these students right.
Australian aviation from top to bottom, just sucks. Anyone in Aviation from the Qantas sky gods on down, should feel dirty today.
Australian aviation from top to bottom, just sucks. Anyone in Aviation from the Qantas sky gods on down, should feel dirty today.
Last edited by Sunfish; 12th Nov 2019 at 20:57.
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Jaayysus, lowballer. What a horrible story yours is. Thanks a lot for sharing with such granularity. Like I said, I heard stories but I never imagined things were anywhere nearly as bad as you reported them. I'm just not sure why you're determined to stay anonymous. You clearly are one of many victims of Soar and beyond how sad and despondent this makes you feel, the two things you can do at the moment are: 1. preventing that others like you before join that school and 2. fight for justice and get your money back.
As for the obsession with perfection, this is such overrated nonsense. Look, back in the early days of my training I passed my first flight test with an examiner named Max Sereno. The bloke has a certain reputation for being tough at Moorabbin, one that I certainly didn't know back then. Ask around if you've never heard of him and watch for reactions. Anyway, back to the flight test. We weren't even done taxiing to the run-up bays that it became crystal clear to me that this was going to be no merry-go-round kind of little tour in the training area. His presence and behaviour was intimidating and just didn't allow me to get comfortable. Plus, it was winter and he set the cabin heat to the max which meant that I started roasting like a chook after the run-ups. And then there's that, my horror scenario. I gave him the sacrosanct takeoff and safety brief while taxiing to the holding point, amen, and then, at the holding point and line-up checks done, I suddenly realise that I actually haven't heard him say a word since we left the run-up bays. So I ask: "All good? Do you have any questions before I make my ready call?" His mouth did move but... no sound. Panic! Instantaneously switching into troubleshooting mode: "Do you read me? I can't hear you!", cables in, volume up, down. Murphy's law at its best, the mother of all teachings: You'll learn the fine print of the Garmin 430 in your flight test. That was it, the longest 15 seconds of my pilot life (actually it felt like minutes), the longer time passed, the more I started accepting the fate that I would probably be the first student to fail his flight test with a flashy flight time of 0.0, let alone the money that the whole circus would anyway cost. I just thought, at least this is one environmentally friendly way of failing, certainly no one can blame that. It turned out to be the squelch, obvious, hey!?. He had been fiddling with the cabin heat AND his squelch knob while I was testing the engine and not paying attention to him. Squelch back to an acceptable level, he looks at me and says: "Don't forget your ready call". And that was that. I made a mountain out of a molehill, and molehills would be many more to come in subsequent flights. The flight test went well, not overly perfect, not without mistakes but none that I wouldn't correct during the normal course of the flight. Debriefing that flight he told me that we're all expected to make mistakes and, equally, we're also expected to detect and rectify them. A pass and no drama beyond what you make of it. Certainly no need for a whole repeat. I'm not saying that SOPs and checklists are not important, but mistakes should be put into perspective and weighed against the big picture of your overall performance.
I have two more stories of flight tests where I made mistakes early into the flight and was sure that I was toast but maybe for another time. In both instances they were also a pass and those things I forgot are now engraved into my skull forever (no, carb heat is still not one of them!)
The biggest mistake that I repeatedly made was thinking that a flight flown to the perfection would be the only key to success. It turned out that developing a positive mindset with a good cockpit hygiene is just a 100% more bulletproof. I've been to 5 operators for various stages of my training. I've seen the good, endured the bad (luckily not for long), the spectrum in between, flown with young and old instructors, new and experienced ones, and then I've also had the chance to learn from one school that really, truly stands out. I know that they're picky about who they take on as students but if you have a good story and want to experience a much more thorough approach, then give Peter Bini Advanced Flight Training a ring, or pass by for a chat with their instructors. My only regret is that I got mislead by the "Advanced" part of the name and believed that they only provide training for multi-engine and IR. I can only say that the IR training that I got there was nothing short of stellar. They had a waiting list of a couple of months though. I guess that speaks for itself. Once the training starts, it's highly personal and fast paced though.
@Sunfish, So no, Australian aviation is not hopeless as such. There are good and (many) bad apples. I hear that another school named FAST Aviation operating at Lismore NSW has a very streamlined 4 week multi+IR training. There too is a waiting list of 2-3 months. The danger for prospective students is that they are fooled into choosing the seemingly cheaper and more obvious training path of the integrated CPL, or lower rates, early into their training when they don't have the knowledge yet to realise that they are in fact taking a huge financial risk/gamble by placing their eggs into a single operator all the way.
Blame the regulator for not doing their oversight job properly, I agree. I'm however still curious as to why students stick with it for so long.
Clinch your fists and fight my friend. $80k for a RPL in a Foxbat of just about any colour is fraud. Many, many times over. At that rate it'll cost you a million to get your CPL and probably another one to get your IR.
As for the obsession with perfection, this is such overrated nonsense. Look, back in the early days of my training I passed my first flight test with an examiner named Max Sereno. The bloke has a certain reputation for being tough at Moorabbin, one that I certainly didn't know back then. Ask around if you've never heard of him and watch for reactions. Anyway, back to the flight test. We weren't even done taxiing to the run-up bays that it became crystal clear to me that this was going to be no merry-go-round kind of little tour in the training area. His presence and behaviour was intimidating and just didn't allow me to get comfortable. Plus, it was winter and he set the cabin heat to the max which meant that I started roasting like a chook after the run-ups. And then there's that, my horror scenario. I gave him the sacrosanct takeoff and safety brief while taxiing to the holding point, amen, and then, at the holding point and line-up checks done, I suddenly realise that I actually haven't heard him say a word since we left the run-up bays. So I ask: "All good? Do you have any questions before I make my ready call?" His mouth did move but... no sound. Panic! Instantaneously switching into troubleshooting mode: "Do you read me? I can't hear you!", cables in, volume up, down. Murphy's law at its best, the mother of all teachings: You'll learn the fine print of the Garmin 430 in your flight test. That was it, the longest 15 seconds of my pilot life (actually it felt like minutes), the longer time passed, the more I started accepting the fate that I would probably be the first student to fail his flight test with a flashy flight time of 0.0, let alone the money that the whole circus would anyway cost. I just thought, at least this is one environmentally friendly way of failing, certainly no one can blame that. It turned out to be the squelch, obvious, hey!?. He had been fiddling with the cabin heat AND his squelch knob while I was testing the engine and not paying attention to him. Squelch back to an acceptable level, he looks at me and says: "Don't forget your ready call". And that was that. I made a mountain out of a molehill, and molehills would be many more to come in subsequent flights. The flight test went well, not overly perfect, not without mistakes but none that I wouldn't correct during the normal course of the flight. Debriefing that flight he told me that we're all expected to make mistakes and, equally, we're also expected to detect and rectify them. A pass and no drama beyond what you make of it. Certainly no need for a whole repeat. I'm not saying that SOPs and checklists are not important, but mistakes should be put into perspective and weighed against the big picture of your overall performance.
I have two more stories of flight tests where I made mistakes early into the flight and was sure that I was toast but maybe for another time. In both instances they were also a pass and those things I forgot are now engraved into my skull forever (no, carb heat is still not one of them!)
The biggest mistake that I repeatedly made was thinking that a flight flown to the perfection would be the only key to success. It turned out that developing a positive mindset with a good cockpit hygiene is just a 100% more bulletproof. I've been to 5 operators for various stages of my training. I've seen the good, endured the bad (luckily not for long), the spectrum in between, flown with young and old instructors, new and experienced ones, and then I've also had the chance to learn from one school that really, truly stands out. I know that they're picky about who they take on as students but if you have a good story and want to experience a much more thorough approach, then give Peter Bini Advanced Flight Training a ring, or pass by for a chat with their instructors. My only regret is that I got mislead by the "Advanced" part of the name and believed that they only provide training for multi-engine and IR. I can only say that the IR training that I got there was nothing short of stellar. They had a waiting list of a couple of months though. I guess that speaks for itself. Once the training starts, it's highly personal and fast paced though.
@Sunfish, So no, Australian aviation is not hopeless as such. There are good and (many) bad apples. I hear that another school named FAST Aviation operating at Lismore NSW has a very streamlined 4 week multi+IR training. There too is a waiting list of 2-3 months. The danger for prospective students is that they are fooled into choosing the seemingly cheaper and more obvious training path of the integrated CPL, or lower rates, early into their training when they don't have the knowledge yet to realise that they are in fact taking a huge financial risk/gamble by placing their eggs into a single operator all the way.
Blame the regulator for not doing their oversight job properly, I agree. I'm however still curious as to why students stick with it for so long.
Clinch your fists and fight my friend. $80k for a RPL in a Foxbat of just about any colour is fraud. Many, many times over. At that rate it'll cost you a million to get your CPL and probably another one to get your IR.
Last edited by Okihara; 12th Nov 2019 at 20:41.
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I too got sucked in.
What swayed me in the first place was the part time ‘organized and structured ‘ nature of the course, as it turned out it was anything but structure and organized. I knew full well that post any initial course I was going to be up for many thousands of dollars to even get a look in. So self funding the entire CPL and working full time wasn’t an option for me, mainly due to other life commitments .... pesky things like a family and house etc!
I’m not blaming anyone other than my self for the predicament I’m now in as many of the red flags which many people have called out for shonky training were very evident, very early on. I chose to continue mainly because I was actually progressing at the required pace ... until it came time for my PPL flight test which despite passing everything mysteriously took over 3 months to organize, by which time the CPL cluster date had passed and I was really stuck! Despite paying for the theory component, it was so poorly organized, with instructors who verbally said they didn’t want to be there, who had clearly done zero preparation on the material they were supposed to ‘teach’ that I self studied (and passed) all 7 exams.
There were many good instructors, Some of which have gone onto much bigger and shinier aircraft – deservedly so. There were also many very poor instructors . Most are probably good pilots who are blindly following orders in part because they were probably desperate for a foot in the door. I’ve witnessed instructors blatantly display incredibly poor professionalism, Some of which is downright dangerous.
There is absolutely zero organization, contradicting information on everything imaginable (simple things like a particular way to perform a certain procedure) to what the syllabus actually requires (changed several times in my time) A severe lack of professionalism and care for student development from many instructors. I’ve heard from several different previous employees that it was encouraged to drag students training and progress out – this is the result! Insane number of instructor turnover (from 0 hours to the end I had in excess of 25 different instructors. There is absolutely zero accountability for the instructors and level of training they are providing.
To the handful of good instructors who maintained their own standards in very difficult and trying conditions, usually for a short time ... I take my hat off to you and wish you every success!
To the many clearly unhappy, unmotivated instructors who are churning through the hours with zero care for your output, whilst waiting for the next best thing... you are as much to blame for Soars current predicament as the management. Perhaps the fact that you are still waiting on that next big thing your own doing. A student failing and the pass rates say as much about the instructors signing students off as it does about the organization it self.
For what it’s worth it’s been a massive set back! But my aviation adventure is far from over and I will not let this organization crush my dreams!
It's been a massive learning experience!
Onwards and upwards!
What swayed me in the first place was the part time ‘organized and structured ‘ nature of the course, as it turned out it was anything but structure and organized. I knew full well that post any initial course I was going to be up for many thousands of dollars to even get a look in. So self funding the entire CPL and working full time wasn’t an option for me, mainly due to other life commitments .... pesky things like a family and house etc!
I’m not blaming anyone other than my self for the predicament I’m now in as many of the red flags which many people have called out for shonky training were very evident, very early on. I chose to continue mainly because I was actually progressing at the required pace ... until it came time for my PPL flight test which despite passing everything mysteriously took over 3 months to organize, by which time the CPL cluster date had passed and I was really stuck! Despite paying for the theory component, it was so poorly organized, with instructors who verbally said they didn’t want to be there, who had clearly done zero preparation on the material they were supposed to ‘teach’ that I self studied (and passed) all 7 exams.
There were many good instructors, Some of which have gone onto much bigger and shinier aircraft – deservedly so. There were also many very poor instructors . Most are probably good pilots who are blindly following orders in part because they were probably desperate for a foot in the door. I’ve witnessed instructors blatantly display incredibly poor professionalism, Some of which is downright dangerous.
There is absolutely zero organization, contradicting information on everything imaginable (simple things like a particular way to perform a certain procedure) to what the syllabus actually requires (changed several times in my time) A severe lack of professionalism and care for student development from many instructors. I’ve heard from several different previous employees that it was encouraged to drag students training and progress out – this is the result! Insane number of instructor turnover (from 0 hours to the end I had in excess of 25 different instructors. There is absolutely zero accountability for the instructors and level of training they are providing.
To the handful of good instructors who maintained their own standards in very difficult and trying conditions, usually for a short time ... I take my hat off to you and wish you every success!
To the many clearly unhappy, unmotivated instructors who are churning through the hours with zero care for your output, whilst waiting for the next best thing... you are as much to blame for Soars current predicament as the management. Perhaps the fact that you are still waiting on that next big thing your own doing. A student failing and the pass rates say as much about the instructors signing students off as it does about the organization it self.
For what it’s worth it’s been a massive set back! But my aviation adventure is far from over and I will not let this organization crush my dreams!
It's been a massive learning experience!
Onwards and upwards!
Lowballer, that's terrible, I want to apologise on behalf of the flying training industry for what you have been through. Not all flying schools are like this. There were just a select few who saw the VET loans as a way of scamming the taxpayer. For 80 grand you should have 200 hours and a CPL without ever having gone near an RA Aus aeroplane.
There is no such thing as cheap flying.
Many predicted that the government dishing out loans like this would result in this sort of thing, but of course the people running them are good at lobbying for more and more. You and the taxpayer are the ones being scammed, the only difference with this one is that instead of suddenly closing the doors and the money vanishing to who knows where as so many others have, this guy is actually flaunting it, rubbing noses in it on the Young Rich List. Pride comes before a fall and if you get a refund he can't now say he doesn't have the money and just lock the door and disappear like so many others have.
I wish you all the best of luck. Robyn Ironside at The Australian is taking interest in this, so suggest you keep in touch with her. Most of us would be very glad to see these scams stopped as so many potentially great pilots' careers are ruined before they have even begun and it gives the industry a bad name.
As for the perfection thing, I recently renewed my Examiner Rating and we discussed this, there is no such thing a the perfect flight test. What matters are whether errors are safety or non safety critical and if/how the student recognises, prioritises and fixes them.
I remember when I came here from the other side of the world I already had a few hundred hours and had been instructing for some time. When I went to do my conversions I went to a certain school. They told me I had to repeat 3 hour navs because I had used ICAO radio procedures and readbacks instead of the abbreiviated versions Australia used at the time. Luckily I was experienced enough to know they were scamming me and also experienced enough to know that those unfortunate instructors really didn't know any different. They had been scammed too.
Good luck. Keep your powder dry.
There is no such thing as cheap flying.
Many predicted that the government dishing out loans like this would result in this sort of thing, but of course the people running them are good at lobbying for more and more. You and the taxpayer are the ones being scammed, the only difference with this one is that instead of suddenly closing the doors and the money vanishing to who knows where as so many others have, this guy is actually flaunting it, rubbing noses in it on the Young Rich List. Pride comes before a fall and if you get a refund he can't now say he doesn't have the money and just lock the door and disappear like so many others have.
I wish you all the best of luck. Robyn Ironside at The Australian is taking interest in this, so suggest you keep in touch with her. Most of us would be very glad to see these scams stopped as so many potentially great pilots' careers are ruined before they have even begun and it gives the industry a bad name.
As for the perfection thing, I recently renewed my Examiner Rating and we discussed this, there is no such thing a the perfect flight test. What matters are whether errors are safety or non safety critical and if/how the student recognises, prioritises and fixes them.
I remember when I came here from the other side of the world I already had a few hundred hours and had been instructing for some time. When I went to do my conversions I went to a certain school. They told me I had to repeat 3 hour navs because I had used ICAO radio procedures and readbacks instead of the abbreiviated versions Australia used at the time. Luckily I was experienced enough to know they were scamming me and also experienced enough to know that those unfortunate instructors really didn't know any different. They had been scammed too.
Good luck. Keep your powder dry.
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Once again thank you to everyone here who has repsonded to my comments about the situtation,
here i have some of the responses (again my views)
Thank you for that, Funny thing is that Box hill marked me quite low on the "Writing" side of things, Cavet Emptor doesnt exist when non biased reviews and non threatening feedback get purged and all thats left is deception. We know that those sharks exist we don't dismiss them. not all dolphins are sharks and not all sharks are dolphins. Some of us were quite shocked to find the true colors of some individuals. to see them supporting behind the other side of the fence is both shocking and saddening. But with that comes the other surprise of the immense support that we have received from avenues that we never expected.
This is only the 5% of what i can tell you. IF there is a glimpse of hope from within this corruption is that this glimpse requires awareness. admittingly their vacuum is full and the carpet still dirty, cant hide anymore dead skelletons that closet when its full. People talk so spreading awareness about this is our goal.
Okiharats my pleasure to be here, someone needs to clear up the mis-conceptions, the only reason right now is that there is politics and media involvement. speculate all you want but there is a lot of info i know that i shouldn't.
As for the 2 moves, 1 - you can take the horse to the creek but you cant make it drink (if googling soar and seeing negative publicity doesnt work, he is paying good dollars to the internet cleaners), 2 - already onto it, The Australian (Robyn Ironside) is doing an excellent job for us.
Mate, that sounds quite exhausting experience but one that you wont forget. The whole time here reading your story I remember asking on one of my first ever flights the instructor of "how do we get billed? is it VDO or Airswitch". his reply, no joke "Don't worry about it". I just wanted to ask a fancy question because to be honest quite frankly i didn't know the difference between the two. to this day i still dont know whats the hourly rate for a dual/solo flight in soar's foxbat is. 0.0 you must have had an airswitch at the holding point lol, that's okay at least you wouldn't need to repeat it, don't need to summon captain hindsight here. The going norm there is to have 2 flight tests. 1 to fail and 1 to pass...Riddle me this? how is that okay?....
I have two more stories of flight tests where I made mistakes early into the flight and was sure that I was toast but maybe for another time. In both instances they were also a pass and those things I forgot are now engraved into my skull forever (no, carb heat is still not one of them!)
That i couldn't agree more. Positive mindset is the key in a normal flight school. not here, here you must be perfect. I've heard stories that you are perfect and yet still get marked to fail and repeat because of some bogus reasons, Reality is there is no proper debrief. I was mostly sent home and would never see the flight lesson entries till i actually requested them. one day i raged to see what was said about me and what was actually entered, you know where do i fault? surprise surprise, half of the junior instructors dont even write notes on you let alone mark the flights assessments, And yes i know Lionel T From PB, Good bloke he is. A lot of students from soar go to him, not to mention you said about the other operator FAST Aviation. Another quality school from other students i heard. The thing is pretty much EVERY operator in Moorabbin is better (in my opinion). Every operator at least somewhat cares for their students..students are the customers. customers bring money. simple. deceiving and then entrapping the students is a bad business model and this will stop.
Ah yes all aboard the BHFS v2.0...
(to those watching at home and want spoilers. copy paste these for you benefit:
aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=d019c4ba-e7fa-4671-89cd-2766fbcec47f&subId=563996
parlview.aph.gov.au/mediaPlayer.php?videoID=326746 WATCH 20:52:32 TILL 21:18:42)
Why do we stick? its because we cant go anywhere else. the words past census predatory entrapment is perfect way to summarize this
The color is yellow, Think of a fruit thats yellow, thats the bitter fruity flavor i have. worse than buying a holden craptiva.
You and I mate, Wondering if you are in our group or not...
Part time - Yes, Bonus round = every other provider was losing their funding because of the Vet fee help abolishment, every provider needed to reapply to Vet student loan, Box Hill was one of the first for the loan to be approved and thus reason behind why i chose BHI, If captain hindsight was around he would have told me to just wait a little bit longer you might learn something better. Who knew that my mates in other flight schools already got what i wanted forever, yet the feeling of failiure just grows and grows. looking back the whole self-funding thing is actually affordable if you are good with your money. Its the part time commitement yet treated like a full time. 0 Flexibility, 0 Negotiation, Max money.
You dont have to blame anyone, Read your paperwork that you signed (oh wait...im still waiting for my paperwork to be given to me) You know what SOAR stands for? (DEFFINETLY of course in my opinion) Shifty/Shonky/Shady/****ty/Shafted Operators and Robbers. pick one that makes you feel better, Choosing to continue is what i did as well because i had no plan B, I wasnt trained enough to have to rely on a diversion elswhere at the time i didnt even know how to fly S&L, The gouging flight test scheduling is either full of excuses of reluctancy or just straight up loath. The NZ instructors mostly overclocked peoples hours, they are the ones in my time who dispised being there, failing you for incorrect checklist procedure. "mate i havent even started the engine and this is my first pre-solo wtf!", fun fact: theft of intelectual property too. Just ask operators who run the material thats not BT for their feedback about SOAR&BHI using without permission
Rightfully so! I think ive got a clue of who you are talking about (good on him!), Yep. some of the instructors ive met lived on their credit cards for months thanks to the summer-winter contractual changes. (yup ive said enough i wont elaborate on that no more but let your imagination run wild with being paid upon flying). those instructors are kids who are there for the flight hours, Dont mind me im still a kid under 30 but my moral compass is set correctly. my mum did teach me not to stick a fork in a powerpoint, she also taught me that for every action there is an equal and an opposite reaction, you pitch up you stall you wingdrop you spin in an aircraft thats not allowed for that
Remember the Stall's SOP? ah good times i remember i burried so many hours on something that casa never asked for nor was ever required...
Those instructors are now actually succeeding and are happy. goes to show what kind of a revolving door soar is
Dont worry, their RA-AUS hours used for upgrade clearly made a dent in their pockets. Shame that some good instructors got deceived too by that, a very sharp double edged sword, on the other hand catching an instructor you despise sitting on page 27 of AFAP Jobs sleeping in the instructors room on the keyboard drooling kinda proves a point in the culture that they have built.
Props to you man for striving for the better! for me its a massive set back and im itching to get back into the books to truly study for it and actually get somewhere with proper mentorship as so far it seems that even the ones who graduated are still unemployed (not counting the ones who are instructors snapped inhouse.)
Tell me about it, Keep the blue sky up they say? Mate wtf is Sky...wtf is up? kinda like EA games with microtransactions, pay to play except that sorry you cant pay you cant play at all and everything you worked so hard for is void.
Thats okay, Not really looking for sympathy on this forum, We already got thick skin in the group post threats on socials and other forms of bullying, yes this one takes the cake im not surprised anymore when people i know, people i went to class, people who had high hopes and dreams tell me that they just want it to end they dont want to do it anymore, they would rather be cleaning public toilets for pennies on the dollar rather than continue to endure this nonsense in the form of corporate greed and corruption.
its not even the VSL operators, its THE VSL operator. "Australia's Largest Flight School" who hides behind the skirt of BHI, 80k down and only post code numbers in my logbook...with a select few maybe 3-4 entries of GA. yup money well spent by deception. least i got something i know of a person who has downed 76k and not even RPC...
I know, at least there is a price-list which gives you the ability to choose where to fly. that option is golden. you dont realize what kind of reget it is when it doesnt exist for you.
He wont close easily, he wont disappear either, we mitigated that possibility. Flaunt it all he wants. the timing of The Australian Articles was very careful. Violah, it worked his article by AFR got pulled. so much for money cant buy good reputation...
We know alot more than Robyn does, She is working with us carefully however we must know how to defend for ourselfs too so cant really comment on what happens next but stay tuned ofcourse. As mentour pilot from youtube said it himself too, Aptitude - you can still become a fantastic pilot. Funding is the reason why it limits quality best pilots to just rich bank of mum and dad pilots.
Thats exactly why my flight examiner was surprised with my ability. the whole "are you sure this is your first time being assessed?". once again at what cost? 0% failure recorded against my name in BHI, yet there is failiure and i know some catastrphic failiure that has been sweapt under the rug. not particularly with me but with most individuals failing flights for trivial things that actually get rectified.
This is how the industry is broken, Independant reviews are hidden and only propoganda exists.
I think thats all i can really say i know its a long post but we are here for any students who are struggling and are going through barely. once again if you wish to contact myself let me know.
here i have some of the responses (again my views)
Great post lowballer. You guys got dealt a **** hand. As much as people can say caveat emptor, both the education and aviation industries are full of sharks just waiting to bite.
I got stung early in my aviation career by a ‘job’ that required training to be paid for. Not nearly on the scale that you’ve been taken for a ride on, but in the same circumstances - imbalance in knowledge and bargaining position coupled with someone unconscionably making money. If it’s any consolation, you’ll never fall for it again. My eyes have been wide open ever since.
I got stung early in my aviation career by a ‘job’ that required training to be paid for. Not nearly on the scale that you’ve been taken for a ride on, but in the same circumstances - imbalance in knowledge and bargaining position coupled with someone unconscionably making money. If it’s any consolation, you’ll never fall for it again. My eyes have been wide open ever since.
If this is true as alleged this is the most depressing post I have ever read about Australian Aviation.Evil bastards. Also, did the regulator not know or care? What about the RAA? Surely there must have been bar room talk - rumours, yet nobody blew the whistle or tried to put these students right.
Australian aviation from top to bottom, just sucks. Anyone in Aviation from the Qantas sky gods on down, should feel dirty today.
Australian aviation from top to bottom, just sucks. Anyone in Aviation from the Qantas sky gods on down, should feel dirty today.
Okiharats my pleasure to be here, someone needs to clear up the mis-conceptions, the only reason right now is that there is politics and media involvement. speculate all you want but there is a lot of info i know that i shouldn't.
As for the 2 moves, 1 - you can take the horse to the creek but you cant make it drink (if googling soar and seeing negative publicity doesnt work, he is paying good dollars to the internet cleaners), 2 - already onto it, The Australian (Robyn Ironside) is doing an excellent job for us.
Mate, that sounds quite exhausting experience but one that you wont forget. The whole time here reading your story I remember asking on one of my first ever flights the instructor of "how do we get billed? is it VDO or Airswitch". his reply, no joke "Don't worry about it". I just wanted to ask a fancy question because to be honest quite frankly i didn't know the difference between the two. to this day i still dont know whats the hourly rate for a dual/solo flight in soar's foxbat is. 0.0 you must have had an airswitch at the holding point lol, that's okay at least you wouldn't need to repeat it, don't need to summon captain hindsight here. The going norm there is to have 2 flight tests. 1 to fail and 1 to pass...Riddle me this? how is that okay?....
I have two more stories of flight tests where I made mistakes early into the flight and was sure that I was toast but maybe for another time. In both instances they were also a pass and those things I forgot are now engraved into my skull forever (no, carb heat is still not one of them!)
(to those watching at home and want spoilers. copy paste these for you benefit:
aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=d019c4ba-e7fa-4671-89cd-2766fbcec47f&subId=563996
parlview.aph.gov.au/mediaPlayer.php?videoID=326746 WATCH 20:52:32 TILL 21:18:42)
Why do we stick? its because we cant go anywhere else. the words past census predatory entrapment is perfect way to summarize this
You and I mate, Wondering if you are in our group or not...
What swayed me in the first place was the part time ‘organized and structured ‘ nature of the course, as it turned out it was anything but structure and organized. I knew full well that post any initial course I was going to be up for many thousands of dollars to even get a look in. So self funding the entire CPL and working full time wasn’t an option for me, mainly due to other life commitments .... pesky things like a family and house etc!
I’m not blaming anyone other than my self for the predicament I’m now in as many of the red flags which many people have called out for shonky training were very evident, very early on. I chose to continue mainly because I was actually progressing at the required pace ... until it came time for my PPL flight test which despite passing everything mysteriously took over 3 months to organize, by which time the CPL cluster date had passed and I was really stuck! Despite paying for the theory component, it was so poorly organized, with instructors who verbally said they didn’t want to be there, who had clearly done zero preparation on the material they were supposed to ‘teach’ that I self studied (and passed) all 7 exams.
There were many good instructors, Some of which have gone onto much bigger and shinier aircraft – deservedly so. There were also many very poor instructors . Most are probably good pilots who are blindly following orders in part because they were probably desperate for a foot in the door. I’ve witnessed instructors blatantly display incredibly poor professionalism, Some of which is downright dangerous.
There is absolutely zero organization, contradicting information on everything imaginable (simple things like a particular way to perform a certain procedure) to what the syllabus actually requires (changed several times in my time) A severe lack of professionalism and care for student development from many instructors. I’ve heard from several different previous employees that it was encouraged to drag students training and progress out – this is the result! Insane number of instructor turnover (from 0 hours to the end I had in excess of 25 different instructors. There is absolutely zero accountability for the instructors and level of training they are providing.
To the many clearly unhappy, unmotivated instructors who are churning through the hours with zero care for your output, whilst waiting for the next best thing... you are as much to blame for Soars current predicament as the management. Perhaps the fact that you are still waiting on that next big thing your own doing. A student failing and the pass rates say as much about the instructors signing students off as it does about the organization it self.
Tell me about it, Keep the blue sky up they say? Mate wtf is Sky...wtf is up? kinda like EA games with microtransactions, pay to play except that sorry you cant pay you cant play at all and everything you worked so hard for is void.
Lowballer, that's terrible, I want to apologise on behalf of the flying training industry for what you have been through. Not all flying schools are like this. There were just a select few who saw the VET loans as a way of scamming the taxpayer. For 80 grand you should have 200 hours and a CPL without ever having gone near an RA Aus aeroplane.
its not even the VSL operators, its THE VSL operator. "Australia's Largest Flight School" who hides behind the skirt of BHI, 80k down and only post code numbers in my logbook...with a select few maybe 3-4 entries of GA. yup money well spent by deception. least i got something i know of a person who has downed 76k and not even RPC...
I know, at least there is a price-list which gives you the ability to choose where to fly. that option is golden. you dont realize what kind of reget it is when it doesnt exist for you.
Many predicted that the government dishing out loans like this would result in this sort of thing, but of course the people running them are good at lobbying for more and more. You and the taxpayer are the ones being scammed, the only difference with this one is that instead of suddenly closing the doors and the money vanishing to who knows where as so many others have, this guy is actually flaunting it, rubbing noses in it on the Young Rich List. Pride comes before a fall and if you get a refund he can't now say he doesn't have the money and just lock the door and disappear like so many others have.
I wish you all the best of luck. Robyn Ironside at The Australian is taking interest in this, so suggest you keep in touch with her. Most of us would be very glad to see these scams stopped as so many potentially great pilots' careers are ruined before they have even begun and it gives the industry a bad name.
As for the perfection thing, I recently renewed my Examiner Rating and we discussed this, there is no such thing a the perfect flight test. What matters are whether errors are safety or non safety critical and if/how the student recognises, prioritises and fixes them.
I remember when I came here from the other side of the world I already had a few hundred hours and had been instructing for some time. When I went to do my conversions I went to a certain school. They told me I had to repeat 3 hour navs because I had used ICAO radio procedures and readbacks instead of the abbreiviated versions Australia used at the time. Luckily I was experienced enough to know they were scamming me and also experienced enough to know that those unfortunate instructors really didn't know any different. They had been scammed too.
Good luck. Keep your powder dry.
Good luck. Keep your powder dry.
I think thats all i can really say i know its a long post but we are here for any students who are struggling and are going through barely. once again if you wish to contact myself let me know.
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Well, you've read a couple of accounts, there are many more. How the hell were they to know? I didn't when I started, I came from a family of zero pilots, I was the first. I was lucky, I went to a school that had a great rep. There were also very few turds in the industry like this turd.
It will be interesting to see if the full story comes out. There are agencies involved that will be very embarrassed, will they try and hide this? If they do it may get a little sticky, because there are enough people who know the full story that will probably spill the beans.
Narcissist
Psychopath
Arrogant
You all go down in the end.
It will be interesting to see if the full story comes out. There are agencies involved that will be very embarrassed, will they try and hide this? If they do it may get a little sticky, because there are enough people who know the full story that will probably spill the beans.
Narcissist
Psychopath
Arrogant
You all go down in the end.
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To Soar's current/former students: Can anyone shed light into Soar's surprisingly high Google review ratings? I mean, going by what I read here, I would have expected anywhere between 1 and 2 stars but going through a few that gave 5 stars has me wondering who these people really are. Instructors themselves keeping busy on IMC days? Some reviews really depict a grim picture consistent with your stories above. I'm sorry, this one is too good not to share with you all:
Here's one from "a week ago" (highlighting mine):
... seriously!?
And here's one by someone who's been brainwashed:
Amending rather than cancelling SARTIME 50 miles out is probably what you'd expect a school to teach, methinks. I also think that the kid just showed very publicly that he had no understanding at all of what SARTIME is for, again not particularly commending for a school sending someone on a solo nav.
Here's one from "a week ago" (highlighting mine):
I chose Soar Aviation in 2017 to begin my aviation journey, something i wanted to do all my life but never had the opportunity to do so. Today, less than 2 years later, i am a Commercial Pilot. I hold a Multi Engine Class Rating (gifted as a scholarship by Soar) and also obtained my Flight Instructor Rating. I am also now about to start teaching as a Flight Instructor at Soar Aviation. I am greatful to the wonderful staff, professionalism of all the Flight Instructors and Soar Aviation team who have all me to progress in 24 months from zero to a career in Aviation. The aircraft are mostly brand new, well maintained, and if you study hard and apply yourself, the Soar syllabus is designed to catapult you to amazing opportunities in a very short period when compared to other flight schools. Thankyou to the team at Soar Aviation for a wonderful gift, a dream career in Aviation.
And here's one by someone who's been brainwashed:
I have completed my Navigations endorsement and soon to commence my CPL in their full time class. I have to say all the hiccups that I have ever had is at Boxhill but never had an issue with flying so far. It’s such a shame that we have to travel to Boxhill for theory when soar has theory classes space at their office. I am not sure why they don’t do theory here there are occasional cancellations due to wx or unscheduled maintenance but I am a realist that this is aviation and if I couldn’t understand weather or aircraft being machines so they sometimes break then I would have chosen another career. The biggest challenge in this course is RPL section and if you have regular flights and don’t take big breaks then you should comfortably achieve solo within 20 hours Their facility is probably the best around in Melbourne as I originally started flying at bacchus marsh. Never had a major issue but clearly if I do have in the future then I will edit this review
After looking around for a flying school for some time. I kept coming back to soar aviation to do my cpl as they offer part time study options and flying when I can (weekends) as I work full time. I am a current student so I thought I would do a quick review. From the moment I walked in the front door I have felt welcomed from staff and students. The instructors are fantastic and really want to help you along your journey to becoming a commercial pilot. The instructors are there to help you progress and they can and will not pass you if YOU are not up to standard. It's not kindergarten they are training us to become commercial pilots! They will do anything they can to help you! Yes you have the odd day you can't fly due to weather but honestly you don't really want to be up in the air when conditions are not favourable as you won't learn anything! The aircraft are modern, well maintained and they have plenty of them.
Amending rather than cancelling SARTIME 50 miles out is probably what you'd expect a school to teach, methinks. I also think that the kid just showed very publicly that he had no understanding at all of what SARTIME is for, again not particularly commending for a school sending someone on a solo nav.
Last edited by Okihara; 13th Nov 2019 at 12:23.