Once again thank you to everyone here who has repsonded to my comments about the situtation,
here i have some of the responses (again my views)
Originally Posted by
evilducky
Great post lowballer. You guys got dealt a **** hand. As much as people can say caveat emptor, both the education and aviation industries are full of sharks just waiting to bite.
I got stung early in my aviation career by a ‘job’ that required training to be paid for. Not nearly on the scale that you’ve been taken for a ride on, but in the same circumstances - imbalance in knowledge and bargaining position coupled with someone unconscionably making money. If it’s any consolation, you’ll never fall for it again. My eyes have been wide open ever since.
Thank you for that, Funny thing is that Box hill marked me quite low on the "Writing" side of things, Cavet Emptor doesnt exist when non biased reviews and non threatening feedback get purged and all thats left is deception. We know that those sharks exist we don't dismiss them. not all dolphins are sharks and not all sharks are dolphins. Some of us were quite shocked to find the true colors of some individuals. to see them supporting behind the other side of the fence is both shocking and saddening. But with that comes the other surprise of the immense support that we have received from avenues that we never expected.
Originally Posted by
Sunfish
If this is true as alleged this is the most depressing post I have ever read about Australian Aviation.Evil bastards. Also, did the regulator not know or care? What about the RAA? Surely there must have been bar room talk - rumours, yet nobody blew the whistle or tried to put these students right.
Australian aviation from top to bottom, just sucks. Anyone in Aviation from the Qantas sky gods on down, should feel dirty today.
This is only the 5% of what i can tell you. IF there is a glimpse of hope from within this corruption is that this glimpse requires awareness. admittingly their vacuum is full and the carpet still dirty, cant hide anymore dead skelletons that closet when its full. People talk so spreading awareness about this is our goal.
Okiharats my pleasure to be here, someone needs to clear up the mis-conceptions, the only reason right now is that there is politics and media involvement. speculate all you want but there is a lot of info i know that i shouldn't.
As for the 2 moves, 1 - you can take the horse to the creek but you cant make it drink (if googling soar and seeing negative publicity doesnt work, he is paying good dollars to the internet cleaners), 2 - already onto it, The Australian (Robyn Ironside) is doing an excellent job for us.
Mate, that sounds quite exhausting experience but one that you wont forget. The whole time here reading your story I remember asking on one of my first ever flights the instructor of "how do we get billed? is it VDO or Airswitch". his reply, no joke "Don't worry about it". I just wanted to ask a fancy question because to be honest quite frankly i didn't know the difference between the two. to this day i still dont know whats the hourly rate for a dual/solo flight in soar's foxbat is. 0.0 you must have had an airswitch at the holding point lol, that's okay at least you wouldn't need to repeat it, don't need to summon captain hindsight here. The going norm there is to have 2 flight tests. 1 to fail and 1 to pass...Riddle me this? how is that okay?....
I have two more stories of flight tests where I made mistakes early into the flight and was sure that I was toast but maybe for another time. In both instances they were also a pass and those things I forgot are now engraved into my skull forever (no, carb heat is still not one of them!)
Originally Posted by
Okihara
There are good and (many) bad apples. I hear that another school named FAST Aviation operating at Lismore NSW has a very streamlined 4 week multi+IR training. There too is a waiting list of 2-3 months.
That i couldn't agree more. Positive mindset is the key in a normal flight school. not here, here you must be perfect. I've heard stories that you are perfect and yet still get marked to fail and repeat because of some bogus reasons, Reality is there is no proper debrief. I was mostly sent home and would never see the flight lesson entries till i actually requested them. one day i raged to see what was said about me and what was actually entered, you know where do i fault? surprise surprise, half of the junior instructors dont even write notes on you let alone mark the flights assessments, And yes i know Lionel T From PB, Good bloke he is. A lot of students from soar go to him, not to mention you said about the other operator FAST Aviation. Another quality school from other students i heard. The thing is pretty much EVERY operator in Moorabbin is better (in my opinion). Every operator at least somewhat cares for their students..students are the customers. customers bring money. simple. deceiving and then entrapping the students is a bad business model and this will stop.
Originally Posted by
Okihara
Blame the regulator for not doing their oversight job properly, I agree. I'm however still curious as to why students stick with it for so long.
Ah yes all aboard the BHFS v2.0...
(to those watching at home and want spoilers. copy paste these for you benefit:
aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=d019c4ba-e7fa-4671-89cd-2766fbcec47f&subId=563996
parlview.aph.gov.au/mediaPlayer.php?videoID=326746 WATCH 20:52:32 TILL 21:18:42)
Why do we stick? its because we cant go anywhere else. the words past census predatory entrapment is perfect way to summarize this
Originally Posted by
Okihara
Clinch your fists and fight my friend. $80k for a RPL in a Foxbat of just about any colour is fraud. Many, many times over. At that rate it'll cost you a million to get your CPL and probably another one to get your IR.
The color is yellow, Think of a fruit thats yellow, thats the bitter fruity flavor i have. worse than buying a holden craptiva.
You and I mate, Wondering if you are in our group or not...
What swayed me in the first place was the part time ‘organized and structured ‘ nature of the course, as it turned out it was anything but structure and organized. I knew full well that post any initial course I was going to be up for many thousands of dollars to even get a look in. So self funding the entire CPL and working full time wasn’t an option for me, mainly due to other life commitments .... pesky things like a family and house etc!
Part time - Yes, Bonus round = every other provider was losing their funding because of the Vet fee help abolishment, every provider needed to reapply to Vet student loan, Box Hill was one of the first for the loan to be approved and thus reason behind why i chose BHI, If captain hindsight was around he would have told me to just wait a little bit longer you might learn something better. Who knew that my mates in other flight schools already got what i wanted forever, yet the feeling of failiure just grows and grows. looking back the whole self-funding thing is actually affordable if you are good with your money. Its the part time commitement yet treated like a full time. 0 Flexibility, 0 Negotiation, Max money.
I’m not blaming anyone other than my self for the predicament I’m now in as many of the red flags which many people have called out for shonky training were very evident, very early on. I chose to continue mainly because I was actually progressing at the required pace ... until it came time for my PPL flight test which despite passing everything mysteriously took over 3 months to organize, by which time the CPL cluster date had passed and I was really stuck! Despite paying for the theory component, it was so poorly organized, with instructors who verbally said they didn’t want to be there, who had clearly done zero preparation on the material they were supposed to ‘teach’ that I self studied (and passed) all 7 exams.
You dont have to blame anyone, Read your paperwork that you signed (oh wait...im still waiting for my paperwork to be given to me) You know what SOAR stands for? (DEFFINETLY of course in my opinion) Shifty/Shonky/Shady/****ty/Shafted Operators and Robbers. pick one that makes you feel better, Choosing to continue is what i did as well because i had no plan B, I wasnt trained enough to have to rely on a diversion elswhere at the time i didnt even know how to fly S&L, The gouging flight test scheduling is either full of excuses of reluctancy or just straight up loath. The NZ instructors mostly overclocked peoples hours, they are the ones in my time who dispised being there, failing you for incorrect checklist procedure. "mate i havent even started the engine and this is my first pre-solo wtf!", fun fact: theft of intelectual property too. Just ask operators who run the material thats not BT for their feedback about SOAR&BHI using without permission
There were many good instructors, Some of which have gone onto much bigger and shinier aircraft – deservedly so. There were also many very poor instructors . Most are probably good pilots who are blindly following orders in part because they were probably desperate for a foot in the door. I’ve witnessed instructors blatantly display incredibly poor professionalism, Some of which is downright dangerous.
Rightfully so! I think ive got a clue of who you are talking about (good on him!), Yep. some of the instructors ive met lived on their credit cards for months thanks to the summer-winter contractual changes. (yup ive said enough i wont elaborate on that no more but let your imagination run wild with being paid upon flying). those instructors are kids who are there for the flight hours, Dont mind me im still a kid under 30 but my moral compass is set correctly. my mum did teach me not to stick a fork in a powerpoint, she also taught me that for every action there is an equal and an opposite reaction, you pitch up you stall you wingdrop you spin in an aircraft thats not allowed for that
There is absolutely zero organization, contradicting information on everything imaginable (simple things like a particular way to perform a certain procedure) to what the syllabus actually requires (changed several times in my time) A severe lack of professionalism and care for student development from many instructors. I’ve heard from several different previous employees that it was encouraged to drag students training and progress out – this is the result! Insane number of instructor turnover (from 0 hours to the end I had in excess of 25 different instructors. There is absolutely zero accountability for the instructors and level of training they are providing.
Remember the Stall's SOP? ah good times i remember i burried so many hours on something that casa never asked for nor was ever required...
To the handful of good instructors who maintained their own standards in very difficult and trying conditions, usually for a short time ... I take my hat off to you and wish you every success!
Those instructors are now actually succeeding and are happy. goes to show what kind of a revolving door soar is
To the many clearly unhappy, unmotivated instructors who are churning through the hours with zero care for your output, whilst waiting for the next best thing... you are as much to blame for Soars current predicament as the management. Perhaps the fact that you are still waiting on that next big thing your own doing. A student failing and the pass rates say as much about the instructors signing students off as it does about the organization it self.
Dont worry, their RA-AUS hours used for upgrade clearly made a dent in their pockets. Shame that some good instructors got deceived too by that, a very sharp double edged sword, on the other hand catching an instructor you despise sitting on page 27 of AFAP Jobs sleeping in the instructors room on the keyboard drooling kinda proves a point in the culture that they have built.
For what it’s worth it’s been a massive set back! But my aviation adventure is far from over and I will not let this organization crush my dreams!
Props to you man for striving for the better! for me its a massive set back and im itching to get back into the books to truly study for it and actually get somewhere with proper mentorship as so far it seems that even the ones who graduated are still unemployed (not counting the ones who are instructors snapped inhouse.)
It's been a massive learning experience!
Onwards and upwards!
Tell me about it, Keep the blue sky up they say? Mate wtf is Sky...wtf is up? kinda like EA games with microtransactions, pay to play except that sorry you cant pay you cant play at all and everything you worked so hard for is void.
Originally Posted by
Clare Prop
Lowballer, that's terrible, I want to apologise on behalf of the flying training industry for what you have been through. Not all flying schools are like this. There were just a select few who saw the VET loans as a way of scamming the taxpayer. For 80 grand you should have 200 hours and a CPL without ever having gone near an RA Aus aeroplane.
Thats okay, Not really looking for sympathy on this forum, We already got thick skin in the group post threats on socials and other forms of bullying, yes this one takes the cake im not surprised anymore when people i know, people i went to class, people who had high hopes and dreams tell me that they just want it to end they dont want to do it anymore, they would rather be cleaning public toilets for pennies on the dollar rather than continue to endure this nonsense in the form of corporate greed and corruption.
its not even the VSL operators, its THE VSL operator. "Australia's Largest Flight School" who hides behind the skirt of BHI, 80k down and only post code numbers in my logbook...with a select few maybe 3-4 entries of GA. yup money well spent by deception. least i got something i know of a person who has downed 76k and not even RPC...
Originally Posted by
Clare Prop
There is no such thing as cheap flying.
I know, at least there is a price-list which gives you the ability to choose where to fly. that option is golden. you dont realize what kind of reget it is when it doesnt exist for you.
Originally Posted by
Clare Prop
Many predicted that the government dishing out loans like this would result in this sort of thing, but of course the people running them are good at lobbying for more and more. You and the taxpayer are the ones being scammed, the only difference with this one is that instead of suddenly closing the doors and the money vanishing to who knows where as so many others have, this guy is actually flaunting it, rubbing noses in it on the Young Rich List. Pride comes before a fall and if you get a refund he can't now say he doesn't have the money and just lock the door and disappear like so many others have.
He wont close easily, he wont disappear either, we mitigated that possibility. Flaunt it all he wants. the timing of The Australian Articles was very careful. Violah, it worked his article by AFR got pulled. so much for money cant buy good reputation...
Originally Posted by
Clare Prop
I wish you all the best of luck. Robyn Ironside at The Australian is taking interest in this, so suggest you keep in touch with her. Most of us would be very glad to see these scams stopped as so many potentially great pilots' careers are ruined before they have even begun and it gives the industry a bad name.
We know alot more than Robyn does, She is working with us carefully however we must know how to defend for ourselfs too so cant really comment on what happens next but stay tuned ofcourse. As mentour pilot from youtube said it himself too, Aptitude - you can still become a fantastic pilot. Funding is the reason why it limits quality best pilots to just rich bank of mum and dad pilots.
Originally Posted by
Clare Prop
As for the perfection thing, I recently renewed my Examiner Rating and we discussed this, there is no such thing a the perfect flight test. What matters are whether errors are safety or non safety critical and if/how the student recognises, prioritises and fixes them.
Thats exactly why my flight examiner was surprised with my ability. the whole "are you sure this is your first time being assessed?". once again at what cost? 0% failure recorded against my name in BHI, yet there is failiure and i know some catastrphic failiure that has been sweapt under the rug. not particularly with me but with most individuals failing flights for trivial things that actually get rectified.
Originally Posted by
Clare Prop
I remember when I came here from the other side of the world I already had a few hundred hours and had been instructing for some time. When I went to do my conversions I went to a certain school. They told me I had to repeat 3 hour navs because I had used ICAO radio procedures and readbacks instead of the abbreiviated versions Australia used at the time. Luckily I was experienced enough to know they were scamming me and also experienced enough to know that those unfortunate instructors really didn't know any different. They had been scammed too.
Good luck. Keep your powder dry.
This is how the industry is broken, Independant reviews are hidden and only propoganda exists.
I think thats all i can really say i know its a long post but we are here for any students who are struggling and are going through barely. once again if you wish to contact myself let me know.