Flying School Owner makes AFR rich list
Has it worked though?
The whole RAAus thing shouldn't have been on the same playing field in the first place.
From what I've observed in the last 20 years or so, most LSAs just aren't tough enough for flying training and have sent some good operators to the wall.
I heard from a LAME that a certain Aquila, by the time it was imported and on the VH register, cost half a million bucks. Could have got 8 reliable second hand Cessnas or Pipers for that price, had a decent range and a sturdy reliable aeroplane with a steady resale value. I guess that's why some of us are still flying the dinosaurs.
The whole RAAus thing shouldn't have been on the same playing field in the first place.
From what I've observed in the last 20 years or so, most LSAs just aren't tough enough for flying training and have sent some good operators to the wall.
I heard from a LAME that a certain Aquila, by the time it was imported and on the VH register, cost half a million bucks. Could have got 8 reliable second hand Cessnas or Pipers for that price, had a decent range and a sturdy reliable aeroplane with a steady resale value. I guess that's why some of us are still flying the dinosaurs.
Rich Lister resigns from embattled Soar Aviation
https://www.afr.com/companies/transp...0200302-p5464d
https://www.afr.com/companies/transp...0200302-p5464d
“Unrelated health issues”
Gee, that’s a new one!
Gee, that’s a new one!
Isn't there a review of their RTO that is about to be completed about now?
Lies lies lies. About the only thing Neel did honest was his gym workouts ( possibly the odd steroid too but no idea). He has now had ample time to extract maximum cash from the business and shuffle it all overseas.
Shortly I reckon you won’t see him for dust!
Pity no one from whom he has stolen money will get a penny back, but good riddance you dodgy C#NT!
Shortly I reckon you won’t see him for dust!
Pity no one from whom he has stolen money will get a penny back, but good riddance you dodgy C#NT!
The interesting part about 'Gobbo' is the way the media handle all her articles.
Normally the media is quick to relate all of ones sins and give a complete running commentary
Except for Gobbo! she or her father seem to be receiving special treatment.
Why does the media not mention her famous father, former Chief Justice in every article. makes for good drama,
Normally the media is quick to relate all of ones sins and give a complete running commentary
Except for Gobbo! she or her father seem to be receiving special treatment.
Why does the media not mention her famous father, former Chief Justice in every article. makes for good drama,
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SOAR has certainly been a cash cow for a smart operator in so called training, there have been lots of them, ripping off both the students and taxpayers.
But as far as getting a PPL, CPL, MECIR etc, never ever pay up front. You don’t need to. Pay as you go.
Also, you do not need to pay for ground courses, buy Tait’s books, particularly for the CPL and Instrument Rating.
You just study each book, do the questions, then do the exam, 7 in total or it was in 2002/2003 for the CPL.
Same for the IFR written. Just buy the book and study it .
There are great small schools around, if you do not get on with the instructor , say so and change. You are the consumer.
If they are not organised, do not do good pre and post briefs, do not keep your documentation up to date, are gruff,appear disinterested, mention it to the chi and change instructors. Even good schools get dud instructors.
Study the texts as if your life depends on it and enjoy your flying and stay away from the glossy schools.
But as far as getting a PPL, CPL, MECIR etc, never ever pay up front. You don’t need to. Pay as you go.
Also, you do not need to pay for ground courses, buy Tait’s books, particularly for the CPL and Instrument Rating.
You just study each book, do the questions, then do the exam, 7 in total or it was in 2002/2003 for the CPL.
Same for the IFR written. Just buy the book and study it .
There are great small schools around, if you do not get on with the instructor , say so and change. You are the consumer.
If they are not organised, do not do good pre and post briefs, do not keep your documentation up to date, are gruff,appear disinterested, mention it to the chi and change instructors. Even good schools get dud instructors.
Study the texts as if your life depends on it and enjoy your flying and stay away from the glossy schools.
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As a CPL with a MECIR and Instructor rating, I gasp at the idea of $75,000 being a reasonable amount of money to pay for a CPL.
200 hours of flying is the min number of hours for the non integrated course pathway.
Many of those hours are solo, most probably.
The average PPL takes say 65 hours, of that maybe 40 are dual.
Then the pilot flys lots of hours for pleasure solo or maybe sharing costs at $250 per hour wet, max a 172 or equivalent.
Builds hours, simultaneously goes off and buys Tait’s CPL series of books. Studies book of a night, weekends and sits each exam.
There is no need to go and pay for a class, pointless!
PPL then finds a local flying school, which does not require PPL to wear a uniform, which is the most ridiculous thing I see at some airports and undertakes the flying training required to reach CPL level.
This will involve some dual, but mostly solo at $250 max for solo, max $320 for dual.
Then when the CFI believes the PPL is ready and the 7 exams are all passed, a test flight is booked with the CASA delegate.
cost? Ppl...... 25 hrs x 320 =. 8000
40 hrs x 250 = 10000
Total max for PPL. = $18,000. Absolute max....
cost for pleasure hours.... 100hrs x $250. = $25,000
cost of dual for CPL. 25 hrs x $320 = $8000
cost of solo for CPL. 15 hrs x $250 = $3750
total hrs = 200. Total cost. $54,750 absolute max.....
So, I am not sure why $75,000 is a reasonable cost for a CPL.
200 hours of flying is the min number of hours for the non integrated course pathway.
Many of those hours are solo, most probably.
The average PPL takes say 65 hours, of that maybe 40 are dual.
Then the pilot flys lots of hours for pleasure solo or maybe sharing costs at $250 per hour wet, max a 172 or equivalent.
Builds hours, simultaneously goes off and buys Tait’s CPL series of books. Studies book of a night, weekends and sits each exam.
There is no need to go and pay for a class, pointless!
PPL then finds a local flying school, which does not require PPL to wear a uniform, which is the most ridiculous thing I see at some airports and undertakes the flying training required to reach CPL level.
This will involve some dual, but mostly solo at $250 max for solo, max $320 for dual.
Then when the CFI believes the PPL is ready and the 7 exams are all passed, a test flight is booked with the CASA delegate.
cost? Ppl...... 25 hrs x 320 =. 8000
40 hrs x 250 = 10000
Total max for PPL. = $18,000. Absolute max....
cost for pleasure hours.... 100hrs x $250. = $25,000
cost of dual for CPL. 25 hrs x $320 = $8000
cost of solo for CPL. 15 hrs x $250 = $3750
total hrs = 200. Total cost. $54,750 absolute max.....
So, I am not sure why $75,000 is a reasonable cost for a CPL.
Well go start your own school then and destroy the opposition by your amazing ground breaking prices
As a CPL with a MECIR and Instructor rating, I gasp at the idea of $75,000 being a reasonable amount of money to pay for a CPL.
200 hours of flying is the min number of hours for the non integrated course pathway.
Many of those hours are solo, most probably.
The average PPL takes say 65 hours, of that maybe 40 are dual.
Then the pilot flys lots of hours for pleasure solo or maybe sharing costs at $250 per hour wet, max a 172 or equivalent.
Builds hours, simultaneously goes off and buys Tait’s CPL series of books. Studies book of a night, weekends and sits each exam.
There is no need to go and pay for a class, pointless!
PPL then finds a local flying school, which does not require PPL to wear a uniform, which is the most ridiculous thing I see at some airports and undertakes the flying training required to reach CPL level.
This will involve some dual, but mostly solo at $250 max for solo, max $320 for dual.
Then when the CFI believes the PPL is ready and the 7 exams are all passed, a test flight is booked with the CASA delegate.
cost? Ppl...... 25 hrs x 320 =. 8000
40 hrs x 250 = 10000
Total max for PPL. = $18,000. Absolute max....
cost for pleasure hours.... 100hrs x $250. = $25,000
cost of dual for CPL. 25 hrs x $320 = $8000
cost of solo for CPL. 15 hrs x $250 = $3750
total hrs = 200. Total cost. $54,750 absolute max.....
So, I am not sure why $75,000 is a reasonable cost for a CPL.
200 hours of flying is the min number of hours for the non integrated course pathway.
Many of those hours are solo, most probably.
The average PPL takes say 65 hours, of that maybe 40 are dual.
Then the pilot flys lots of hours for pleasure solo or maybe sharing costs at $250 per hour wet, max a 172 or equivalent.
Builds hours, simultaneously goes off and buys Tait’s CPL series of books. Studies book of a night, weekends and sits each exam.
There is no need to go and pay for a class, pointless!
PPL then finds a local flying school, which does not require PPL to wear a uniform, which is the most ridiculous thing I see at some airports and undertakes the flying training required to reach CPL level.
This will involve some dual, but mostly solo at $250 max for solo, max $320 for dual.
Then when the CFI believes the PPL is ready and the 7 exams are all passed, a test flight is booked with the CASA delegate.
cost? Ppl...... 25 hrs x 320 =. 8000
40 hrs x 250 = 10000
Total max for PPL. = $18,000. Absolute max....
cost for pleasure hours.... 100hrs x $250. = $25,000
cost of dual for CPL. 25 hrs x $320 = $8000
cost of solo for CPL. 15 hrs x $250 = $3750
total hrs = 200. Total cost. $54,750 absolute max.....
So, I am not sure why $75,000 is a reasonable cost for a CPL.
Biggles,
your maths is OK but some of your underlying assumptions are a bit out of date. People want a "product" handed to them on a plate. A program of training. The vast majority of CPL trainees are school leavers who need to be spoon-fed, and very few people train through the old "hour building" pathway of which you speak.
That is a pity, because it is often these guys who are the best/most practical GA pilots.
Your numbers also assume no IFR or Multi or night, but a bare Day VFR CPL.
I wish it worked the way you have painted it above!
We find that no matter how low-cost we make the training, punters can't afford $55,000-75,000.... or, more accurately, are not willing to do the hard yards involved at that price when they can get it "for free" through Vet Student Loans.
... I know, I know it's not "Free", but it's a gummint loan and that's the next best thing.
Cheers
your maths is OK but some of your underlying assumptions are a bit out of date. People want a "product" handed to them on a plate. A program of training. The vast majority of CPL trainees are school leavers who need to be spoon-fed, and very few people train through the old "hour building" pathway of which you speak.
That is a pity, because it is often these guys who are the best/most practical GA pilots.
Your numbers also assume no IFR or Multi or night, but a bare Day VFR CPL.
I wish it worked the way you have painted it above!
We find that no matter how low-cost we make the training, punters can't afford $55,000-75,000.... or, more accurately, are not willing to do the hard yards involved at that price when they can get it "for free" through Vet Student Loans.
... I know, I know it's not "Free", but it's a gummint loan and that's the next best thing.
Cheers
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 19th Mar 2020 at 04:10.
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The LSA is not as heavy and maybe not as robust as the old 152, 172 and Piper equivalent, but the LSA market offered 2 seater modern aircraft with EFIS at an affordable cost.
For example the Bristell with A twin Dyson EFIS, a Garmin 650, auto pilot and even a BRS will cost maybe $250 k new. Use half the fuel per hour , more space for pilot and instructor compared to a new 172 which you will not get any change from $600,000 . Also the Bristell will get along at 120 knots plus.
I look at most of the aircraft in schools around south east Oz and they are 1970,1960 vintage, with steam gauge technology. Not that I believe that should be an issue at PPL level.
RAAus schools have been flying 600 kg max aircraft with students for some time.
We would all like to be flying Cirrus 22 Turbos but at 1.2 million a pop, it is just a dream.
I notice in the US at one establishment old 172s are being retrofitted with modern avionics. But the cost in the end is not affordable for most schools unless the students are willing to pay $400/ hr rental.
Many of the lighter aircraft are set up for night, have VH reg, eg, Bristell.
In fact in the US one can fly IFR in a Bristell. There really is no reason why they could not be, an aeroplane is an aeroplane. Icing condition naturally cannot be flown in nor can other larger IFR aircraft.
I wonder whether CASA would allow suitably equiped LSA aircraft to fly IFR in IMC if they were Experimental?
Having both a CPL, MECIR and 22 years of flying experience in all sorts of piston aircraft and an RAAus certificate I find that it the much lower inertia of the
RAAus aircraft requires greater skill to land well.
A new
For example the Bristell with A twin Dyson EFIS, a Garmin 650, auto pilot and even a BRS will cost maybe $250 k new. Use half the fuel per hour , more space for pilot and instructor compared to a new 172 which you will not get any change from $600,000 . Also the Bristell will get along at 120 knots plus.
I look at most of the aircraft in schools around south east Oz and they are 1970,1960 vintage, with steam gauge technology. Not that I believe that should be an issue at PPL level.
RAAus schools have been flying 600 kg max aircraft with students for some time.
We would all like to be flying Cirrus 22 Turbos but at 1.2 million a pop, it is just a dream.
I notice in the US at one establishment old 172s are being retrofitted with modern avionics. But the cost in the end is not affordable for most schools unless the students are willing to pay $400/ hr rental.
Many of the lighter aircraft are set up for night, have VH reg, eg, Bristell.
In fact in the US one can fly IFR in a Bristell. There really is no reason why they could not be, an aeroplane is an aeroplane. Icing condition naturally cannot be flown in nor can other larger IFR aircraft.
I wonder whether CASA would allow suitably equiped LSA aircraft to fly IFR in IMC if they were Experimental?
Having both a CPL, MECIR and 22 years of flying experience in all sorts of piston aircraft and an RAAus certificate I find that it the much lower inertia of the
RAAus aircraft requires greater skill to land well.
A new
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Yes Horatio, One spends big money when one starts multi-engine training.
There were lots of training Beechcraft Duchesses , Piper Seminole around in my time, they are all rusted away and in grim condition now. Not too many Partenavias either.
A few Senecas about, all 1970 or early 80’s. But one needs to experience asymmetric flight and have the hell scared out of them when the instructor de powers an engine when there is not enough runway to drop back onto.
A quick look at a Moorabbin provider and the Seminole is $639/$733 flights with per hour, wet I assume.
That $20,000 grand I just saved would be quickly gobbled up by that for sure.
There were lots of training Beechcraft Duchesses , Piper Seminole around in my time, they are all rusted away and in grim condition now. Not too many Partenavias either.
A few Senecas about, all 1970 or early 80’s. But one needs to experience asymmetric flight and have the hell scared out of them when the instructor de powers an engine when there is not enough runway to drop back onto.
A quick look at a Moorabbin provider and the Seminole is $639/$733 flights with per hour, wet I assume.
That $20,000 grand I just saved would be quickly gobbled up by that for sure.