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Wanting to quit aviation

Old 23rd Apr 2017, 11:29
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 46
Posts: 780
Slatye, that is not a goal but a fact - some latter will be determining if there is another former.

I and others were taking life in aviation, not take offs vs landings.
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 12:22
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: AUS
Posts: 2
Lost Pilot 22, I can only understand as someone who was in a very similar position - except it occurred for me after I finished my CPL at 22.

I got a job in a separate industry to pay for all my flying - then found I loved it so much that I only flew every 3 months to keep my currency up after my CPL flight test. For a good 6 months it was confusing, annoying and downright frustrating that I had wanted to fly for so long but now didn't. I found going to a few airshows and taking a few friends flying brought the bug back. I've decided to get the most out of my current job and when I feel ready, move back into aviation. There will always be planes to fly.

As everyone has said, go ahead and finish the CPL. For what it's worth, you might never fly commercially but to have that level of knowledge and training for the rest of your life will be beneficial if you decide an aviation career is not for you and to fly privately for fun. If one day you want to move into the industry, then having your ticket in hand will make things much easier.

Good on you for reaching out mate! PM if you'd like to chat about anything else.
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 13:06
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here and there
Posts: 387
I love flying but I didn't enjoy training, I did a 150hr syllabus and they managed to suck all the fun out of it. Pressure and less than desirable attitudes from some instructors/school staff can have a large effect on your mood and enthusiasm
I am not at all surprised. In your case have a good hard look at the ratio of your dual instruction as against your solo flying. Ideally it should be 50/50 by the time you reach 100 hours but it will probably more like 80 dual and only 20 solo. Much depends on your flying school policy. CFI's rarely closely supervise their junior instructors and CFI's generally don't regularly look at students progress reports and notice if the dual to solo ratio is heavily biased towards dual and if why is this so. Instructors make money on dual hours so say no more. Solo hours are always enjoyable. Dual hours not always so, depending on the quality of your instructors. Especially if they are inexperienced.

If possible consider training at a well regarded country school where ATC delays are less and the training area is close. But regardless of where you are training, you need to insist on more solo than you are probably currently getting. Solo hours are invaluable in increasing your personal flying skill, decision making and self confidence. Your early enthusiasm for flying will then quickly return.

Then if you are training at a capital city airport like Moorabbin, Essendon or Bankstown look at the ratio of ground time (taxiing, holding and run up time etc) and it is probably about 15-20% of your actual logged flight time. Yet you are being charged the same rate per minute whether flying or holding on the ground twiddling your thumbs waiting as others fly huge circuits and long finals.
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 21:08
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 185
Sounds like your training program may not have been the best choice for you? I was in a similar position a few years ago during training, the school went under just after I left.
Get your cpl complete then head north, you will learn more and have more fun in the first week at work than what you did in your 150 hours of training.

You've come this far, don't quit now mate.
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 22:49
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 56
Lost pilot, sorry to hear that it's not going great for you at the moment. From what I can tell, it is less likely that you have any kind of depression, more likely you have a case of training fatigue. Every time you fly, it's all high pressure and it's been taking the fun out of it and now you don't even remember why your doing it. My suggestion would be that you just chill for a bit, and if you can afford it, get a few mates to chip in and go for a nice adventure. Flying for fun for a little while will remind you why your doing it, and it's unlikely the passion you started with has actually disappeared, it's just temporarily buried.

The only other suggestion I could recommend is it may be time to consider changing schools. Whenever I instruct I work under the idea that this is supposed to be fun, if it's not then something is being done incorrectly. CPL is a long journey and it's very easy to focus on the end goal and forget to enjoy the journey along the way. Stick in there mate, it will all come good soon enough, good luck and with a bit of luck we may fly together one day in some kind of fast exotic piece of machinery.
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 23:20
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 360
Hi Lost Pilot.

First of all, good on you for seeking out information and trying to solve your dilemma.

Second of all, there's been some excellent advice already. Like REALLY, REALLY good.

Third, my humble opinion:
1. Slatye has hit the nail on the head. If you're actually only 15 hours from the standard, just persist. Have a chat to the CFI, if he thinks you're still a long way off, maybe shelve it for the time being. Ask for a different instructor - it can make ALL the difference.
Even the CFI might do a few flights with you to ease your mind. The friendliest, MOST FUN instructor I've ever flown with was my CFI.
2. The financial pressure can be a real burden, but remember it can be paid off. Even if you finish the last 15 hours and decide to work outside of aviation for a while, if you're disciplined and work hard you'll pay it back quickly. I paid my CPL and MECIR off in under two years. Turnbull can wait, he's got enough already.
3. Regarding the big D, the best advice I can give you is to go and see someone. I've seen a few mates struggle at times, and every single one has delayed seeking help. They've torn themselves to pieces for a very long time, and yet once they've finally looked for help - the improvement has been very strong and fast. Every person I know that has been down this road has eventually regretted not seeking help much earlier.

21st century men are no longer expected to dampen their feelings, pretend it's okay when it's not - or concern themselves with what their mates might think. Anyone who doesn't support you when you're struggling isn't a mate anyway.
If you see your GP then they can talk to you about it, and if further investigation is warranted medicare will pay for up to ten mental health sessions so you can get back on the right path. In the event help isn't needed, it will ease your mind that you're okay which is a huge step towards feeling better.

a) Go and see your CFI, that's what they are there for
b) Go and see your GP, if for nothing else than to tick a box and confirm that you are coping okay
c) You don't need an instrument rating for your first job. Worry about it later.
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 23:42
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 56
Sounds to me like the 50K debt is the problem.
This might lift your spirits!
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 02:21
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 942
I think that the shiny brochure schools that offer "CPL in 150 hours" and the lure of "free money" via government loans are actually giving people very unrealistic expectations and leading to disappointment as well as a crippling debt that will haunt you for many years to come in an industry with poor start wages and very limited job prospects. I wonder how many others feel this way but haven't been brave enough to speak out.

How can any instructor can say "you will be ready for test in 15 hours time" . "You will have competed the 150 hour set syllabus" maybe, a very different thing. Another unrealistic expectation.

CPL training can be tough, I expect most of us have felt like packing it in somewhere along the way. There is no easy way no matter what the sales pitch says but taking a step back sounds like a good idea.

My advice, walk away for a bit, earn some cash and finish off non integrated if you still want to do it, don't throw good taxpayers money after bad if you have decided it's not for you. If you decide you don't want to do it then you will probably ask yourself why you didn't walk away sooner.

Good luck.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 02:27
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doomagee
Age: 8
Posts: 721
Haven't read the whole thread but did see some good advice.

I would suggest getting the CPL knocked off so you have that qualification squared away. You might then go and get another qualification (another industry) and during that time/process find what you really want.

I suspect the D might be influencing the whole thing. You are pretty young and what seems like a huge deal today is long forgotten tomorrow.

All the best. I'm sure in the end things will work out.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 03:27
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 360
Here I was saying how helpful everyone has been, but PPRuNe has proven me wrong again.

How can any instructor can say "you will be ready for test in 15 hours time" . "You will have competed the 150 hour set syllabus" maybe, a very different thing. Another unrealistic expectation.
BS. It's VERY realistic to expect any flying instructor to be able to project standards and timelines for progress. I would never have employed an instructor who couldn't determine when and if someone was going to meet the grade. Failure rates in CPL test are very low. If instructors or flying schools couldn't determine with a high level of accuracy when people will be ready for flight tests, the pass rate wouldn't reflect it. Any flying instructor knows the syllabus and flight test standards. Putting the two together is not rocket science. It's also why students' training is overseen by a CFI.

a crippling debt that will haunt you for many years to come in an industry with poor start wages and very limited job prospects.
Bravo. Way to build up a guy who needs some positive reinforcement in a difficult time. FN unbelievable.
Slippery_Pete is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2017, 09:15
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: Mesopotamos
Posts: 1,598
I really hope this thread ain't a wind up, LP22 please ACK.

From a business world perspective, if you want to be seen as less of an employment risk in whatever you choose to do with your life then you must be able to show you can finish something big-ish, be it a degree, elite sportsman, or CPL - just finish it, that's all.

And if things are looking grim, there is always IT.

Good luck.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 09:25
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 3,712
As you will have seen from my earlier post, I am very sceptical of first time posters who hint at psychological issues. I may be being unkind - and if so I apologise unreservedly to LP22 if s/he is genuine - but I've seen a number of fishing expeditions recently on PPRuNe that were obviously about the regulatory and medical intervention 'opportunity' created by Germanwings.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 09:43
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: moon
Posts: 0
Following on from LB, lost pilot is not competent to diagnose that he (she?) is suffering from clinical depression.

My advice would be to get the CPL ticket and then reassess the situation. Maybe you need to lie on a beach for a while after finishing. You might find there are nooks and crannies in the world of aviation that suit you very well and where a licence is very useful even if you aren't flying regularly.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 09:52
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,056
And if things are looking grim, there is always IT.
The grass is always greener... I just finished 20 years in IT and started a new career today, was happy to get out of it!
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 10:51
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 942
Slippery Pete, as you know aviation is a tough gig with a reality gap between the sales pitch and the job market.
Sugar coating it isn't going to help anyone.
It sounds like the OP has a realistic grasp on it and that is why there are doubts creeping in.
BTW I have been training CPLs for 20+ years. Some people get quite far along and decide it's not for them. I would never recommend taking out a massive loan to do it for that reason.
Clare Prop is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2017, 02:39
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,014
Lost Pilot, I certainly hope the previous posters have given you some comfort and help in coming to a decision. It can be a hard road. Many a wide body pilot has said the greatest experiences were had in their formative GA lives. It can become just a job after some time in, and you can find a kernel of truth to cover almost any pro/con argument in the following. For me it was always a feeling of communing with nature, seeing it at its best and worse, and nothing beat being airborne watching a sunset/sunrise. And I got paid for indulging in what would otherwise have been an expensive hobby.

One fine hot Summerís afternoon saw a Cessna 150 flying circuits at a quiet country airfield. The Instructor was getting quite bothered with the studentís inability to hold circuit height in the thermals and was getting impatient at sometimes having to take over the controls. Just then he saw a twin engine Cessna 5,000ft above him and thought "Another 1,000 hrs of this and I qualify for that twin charter job! Aaahh.. to be a real pilot.. going somewhere!"

The Cessna 402 was already late and the boss told him this charter was for one of the Companyís premier clients. Heíd already set MCT and the cylinders didnít like it in the heat of this Summerís day. He was at 6,000ft and the winds were now a 20kt headwind. Today was the 6th day straight and he was pretty damn tired. Maybe if he got 10,000ft out of them the wind might die off... geez those cylinder temps! He looked out momentarily and saw a B737 leaving a contrail at 33,000ft in the serene blue sky. "Oh man" he thought, "My interview is next month. I hope I just donít blow it! Outa G/A, nice jet job, above the weather... no snotty passengers to wait for.. aahhh."

The Boeing 737 bucked and weaved in the heavy CAT at FL330 and ATC advised that lower levels were not available due traffic. The Captain, who was only recently advised that his destination was below RVR minimums had slowed to LRC to try and hold off a possible inflight diversion, and arrange an ETA that would helpfully ensure the fog had lifted to CATII minima. The Company negotiations broke down yesterday and looked as if everyone was going to take a damn pay cut. The F/Oís will be particularly hard hit as their pay wasnít anything to speak of anyway. Finally deciding on a speed compromise between LRC and turbulence penetration, the Captain looked up and saw Concorde at Mach 2+. Tapping his F/Oís shoulder as the 737 took another bashing, he said "Now THATíS what we should be on... huge pay packet... super fast... not too many routes... not too many sectors... above the CAT... yep! What a life...!"

FL590 was not what he wanted anyway and considered FL570. Already the TAT was creeping up again and either they would have to descend or slow down. That damn rear fuel transfer pump was becoming unreliable and the F/E had said moments ago that the radiation meter was not reading numbers that heíd like to see. Concorde descended to FL570 but the radiation was still quite high even though the Notam indicated hunky dory below FL610. Fuel flow was up and the transfer pump was intermittent. Evening turned into night as they passed over the Atlantic. Looking up, the F/O could see a tiny white dot moving against the backdrop of a myriad of stars. "Hey Captain" he called as he pointed. "Must be the Shuttle. "The Captain looked for a moment and agreed. Quietly he thought how a Shuttle mission, whilst complicated, must be the be all and end all in aviation. Above the crap, no radiation problems, no damn fuel transfer problems... aaah. Must be a great way to earn a quid."

Discovery was into its 27th orbit and perigee was 200ft out from nominated rendezvous altitude with the commsat. The robot arm was virtually U/S and a walk may become necessary. The 200ft predicted error would necessitate a corrective burn and Discovery needed that fuel if a walk was to be required. Houston continually asked what the Commander wanted to do but the advice they proffered wasnít much help. The Commander had already been 12 hours on station sorting out the problem and just wanted 10 bloody minutes to himself to take a leak. Just then a mission specialist, who had tilted the telescope down to the surface for a minute or two, called the Commander to the scope. "Have a look at this Sir, isnít this the kinda flying you said you wanted to do after you finish up with NASA?" The Commander peered through the telescope and cried "Ooooohhhhh yeah! Now THATíS flying! Man, thatís what its all about! Geez Iíd give my left nut just to be doing THAT down there!" What the Discovery Commander was looking at was a Cessna 150 flying circuits at a quiet country airfield on a nice bright sunny afternoon.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 04:11
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lost, but often Indonesia
Posts: 621
Lost Pilot

I was saddened to read your predicament..
It must have been so exhilarating when you first started out and progressed to becoming a pilot. Where you are now is not a good space and is obviously hurting and distressing you a great deal.

You mentioned the "D" but did not talk about your general life.
Are you still active with friends, interests, hobbies etc,i.e. life in general? If so, perhaps you have just run out of interest and aviation is not your true calling after all?

However, If not and the "D" is pervasive, I think you need to put aviation on the back burner and it's far more important for your health and future to consider the overall picture and get some assistance.

Psychiatrists are specialist Dr's. They thrive/ rely on prescribing medication to seek a solution. Not a good idea in your chosen career I would think.

Psychologists are not Dr's and do not use medication. They rely on simply talking things through. Perhaps you could consider them similar to a mentor (the good ones!) ...

Feel free to PM me if you wish..

Best wishes

Octane is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2017, 07:01
  #38 (permalink)  

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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 13,344

I felt much the same during my military flying training, compounded in my case because of stop/start progress due to bouts of chronic barotrauma I suffered at the time. The medical officer who was supposed to be supporting me told me to stop flying.

That was almost forty years ago. I ignored his advice and have been flying for a living ever since.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 08:33
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,684
I didn't really enjoy most of my PPL/CPL training at all, the sausage factory schools manage to squeeze all the fun and joy out of VFR, and you don't really see the point of 200 hours of stalls and steep turns and map reading when you just want to fly an Airbus.

But I stuck with it because I was mostly sure when I got to the big stuff, it wouldn't be like that. And it wasn't.

Everyone has that crisis of confidence somewhere in their late CPL when the pressure really starts piling on and they realize it's only going to get worse. Although when I got there, I actually really enjoyed the IR more than the VFR training because it was more structured, more numbers to crunch, a lot more black and white. Maybe just the way my aviation mind is wired.

Not much else to add except everyone goes through ups and downs of enjoying it. Even after 20+ years and 10,000+ hours. You'd be mad to not at least complete the CPL, you're only a few days away. Then take a few days off to recharge your batteries and get completely away from aviation. You'll miss it soon enough ��
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 10:11
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,605
Clare P;

"as you know aviation is a tough gig".

Why is it and why should it be?

I always wanted to drive a Locomotive and at my age is probably more adventurous, achievable and pays better. But they only carry 1,000 pax at a time or 80 tonnes per carriage in cargo. One wonders at the medical, educational, and emotional standard of a typical NSW suburban train driver.

But I wonder about a lot of things these days...
Frank Arouet is offline  

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