“SIDS compulsory because of CASA Regulatory Structure?”
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Just don't expect them to work on your plane before 8AM, between 09:30 and 10:00, 12:00 and 13:00, or after 16:30.
Working in a workshop with people all doing the same. No I don't drink coffee all day because it makes me sick.
I get paid well for my job and average about 9 hours a day. If you wimps want to complain about my work I invite you to come work with me during wet season.
As for SIDs this could have be a good thread, but was derailed by some peoples hate of LAMES.
Last edited by Hasherucf; 14th Jul 2015 at 12:02.
LFA,
The choice to own an aircraft is yours only (and possibly the bank) so becomes your problem.
They are no more expensive, if you can afford it, than beautiful women or German sports cars. I guess a lot cheaper; I am sure there are posters here who can vouch for that fact after their divorce.
The LAME bashing here is pointless as the average charge of the LAME is a LOT LESS than the German car mechanic. There are the good, bad, and average in all areas.
I am still, after 50 years, passionate about this industry, as are most pilots and engineers of my vintage. Our biggest concern is the dumbing down in all areas and the people coming through now who view it as just a job.
18 months now from whoa to go to become a LAME and for a pilot 200h to be in the RH seat of a airliner. In both cases a knowledge of procedures is emphasised more than a thorough understanding of the systems and their interactions with each other; one module done and passed so forget all and move onto the next one.
I have tried to explain to some how things really work and why; the stock answer is "I know" and the eyes glaze over. At that point I walk away and show no further interest in them. Sad!
The choice to own an aircraft is yours only (and possibly the bank) so becomes your problem.
They are no more expensive, if you can afford it, than beautiful women or German sports cars. I guess a lot cheaper; I am sure there are posters here who can vouch for that fact after their divorce.
The LAME bashing here is pointless as the average charge of the LAME is a LOT LESS than the German car mechanic. There are the good, bad, and average in all areas.
I am still, after 50 years, passionate about this industry, as are most pilots and engineers of my vintage. Our biggest concern is the dumbing down in all areas and the people coming through now who view it as just a job.
18 months now from whoa to go to become a LAME and for a pilot 200h to be in the RH seat of a airliner. In both cases a knowledge of procedures is emphasised more than a thorough understanding of the systems and their interactions with each other; one module done and passed so forget all and move onto the next one.
I have tried to explain to some how things really work and why; the stock answer is "I know" and the eyes glaze over. At that point I walk away and show no further interest in them. Sad!
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Its quite funny all those that say they know me but actually don't. I actually get on very well with owners operators etc. Its just the odd few that rock my boat. I always look for the best outcome in all the work I do and the team around me.
And as for working im wondering how many of you miss xmas or new years day working in the heat of summer protecting others community houses lives or weekends to be on call but not get paid for it. How about ringing your local plumber or electrician to come out after hours. Yep they do that for free. And don't forget when your on a trip and you have a dead mag and go to the hangar and expect everyone to drop what they doing and give you 100 precent because your just the most important person in the world.
And then don't forget that we know nothing and you all know it all. Fact is most pilots what they know about maintenance can be written on a head of a pin with a felt tip marker.
This is what we do week in week out. Every wonder why there arnt many Lames on here.
Fact is Lames are a dying breed. Money is not the best for the legal responsibility that we hold. When a Dr makes a mistake he takes one out at a time, we take multiply. And if its so easy why don't you do it,
But bus drivers like leadsled that know it all but actually don't that tell you that you are not issuing a M/R right but never have issued one in their life and tell you doing it wrong and you don't know what your doing but never have signed for anything either, typical of the breed.
Its easy to be brave when you don't have to sign for it
And as for working im wondering how many of you miss xmas or new years day working in the heat of summer protecting others community houses lives or weekends to be on call but not get paid for it. How about ringing your local plumber or electrician to come out after hours. Yep they do that for free. And don't forget when your on a trip and you have a dead mag and go to the hangar and expect everyone to drop what they doing and give you 100 precent because your just the most important person in the world.
And then don't forget that we know nothing and you all know it all. Fact is most pilots what they know about maintenance can be written on a head of a pin with a felt tip marker.
This is what we do week in week out. Every wonder why there arnt many Lames on here.
Fact is Lames are a dying breed. Money is not the best for the legal responsibility that we hold. When a Dr makes a mistake he takes one out at a time, we take multiply. And if its so easy why don't you do it,
But bus drivers like leadsled that know it all but actually don't that tell you that you are not issuing a M/R right but never have issued one in their life and tell you doing it wrong and you don't know what your doing but never have signed for anything either, typical of the breed.
Its easy to be brave when you don't have to sign for it
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PS: Speaking of law, I will give you a tip, it can be very expensive publishing the statement that somebody is a liar
Read what I wrote leadsled I think the radiation at altitude has diminished some of what left of your grey matter.
I said I don't suffer fools liars etc if you read that into yourself then feel free but that is not what I wrote.
And those that would not me work on a wheel barrow or your aircraft that's fine no problem. Please PM me with your name and aircraft rego so if you do have a break down ill know not to come out and get you going again.
And BTW frank over 35 years full time work on aircraft and that dose not count of a full life time in and around the industry.
Read what I wrote leadsled I think the radiation at altitude has diminished some of what left of your grey matter.
I said I don't suffer fools liars etc if you read that into yourself then feel free but that is not what I wrote.
And those that would not me work on a wheel barrow or your aircraft that's fine no problem. Please PM me with your name and aircraft rego so if you do have a break down ill know not to come out and get you going again.
And BTW frank over 35 years full time work on aircraft and that dose not count of a full life time in and around the industry.
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Yr-right,
If I owned an aeroplane, I'd let you work on it, as you seem to be a conscientious bloke that would produce a positive outcome for my aeroplane.
But there is no way in hell I would permit YOU to put pen to paper on its logs!!
I know we are only on an internet forum, however at least trying to type up something that makes sense is just as important to making your point, as it is to entering information on an aeroplanes logs.
__________________________
I took the time recently, in light of this discussion to view the invoices of a few friends, and I almost fell over.
The worst was......
100 hourly inspection to VH-XXX.... $XXXX.XX
They didn't improve much from there.
The hourly rate paid to LAME's is just a joke! Any wonder it cannot retain people...the smash repair industry is not much better.
The smarter LAME's are issuing invoices that show actual time on the aeroplane, and as a seperate line, the time spent doing the administrative tasks associated with that work.
The owners getting the dual line invoices are surprised, as the cost of paperwork is often half the bill.
How many owners on here are paying $100 per hour or more for maintenance?
As propstop says, most are happier to pay more for their porsche than they are for their 50 year old cessna.
If I owned an aeroplane, I'd let you work on it, as you seem to be a conscientious bloke that would produce a positive outcome for my aeroplane.
But there is no way in hell I would permit YOU to put pen to paper on its logs!!
I know we are only on an internet forum, however at least trying to type up something that makes sense is just as important to making your point, as it is to entering information on an aeroplanes logs.
__________________________
I took the time recently, in light of this discussion to view the invoices of a few friends, and I almost fell over.
The worst was......
100 hourly inspection to VH-XXX.... $XXXX.XX
They didn't improve much from there.
The hourly rate paid to LAME's is just a joke! Any wonder it cannot retain people...the smash repair industry is not much better.
The smarter LAME's are issuing invoices that show actual time on the aeroplane, and as a seperate line, the time spent doing the administrative tasks associated with that work.
The owners getting the dual line invoices are surprised, as the cost of paperwork is often half the bill.
How many owners on here are paying $100 per hour or more for maintenance?
As propstop says, most are happier to pay more for their porsche than they are for their 50 year old cessna.
To the several LAME's who may have taken offense at my previous comments, I hold your trade in the highest regard. Personally I have no real complaints about any of the work I have received, or any of any of the bills relating to the said work that I have paid, and that is all of them.
Back to the subject of SIDS, whether they are mandatory in other countries or not, my observation is that they are required. Seemingly good looking Cessnas, when thoroughly inspected are nothing more than a heap of corroded metal gathered together by rivets and paint. Cessna, in this instance know what they are talking about.
I feel for some Cessna owners, their pride and joy has had its value reduced to nothing more than the second hand value of the viable parts. Looking through the Aviation Trader, I see Cessna aircraft with SIDS completed are for sale at around the value they they sold for prior to the term being coined. I also see Cessna aircraft being advertised with the rather dubious "SIDS compliant" label, which suggests to me that the owner is of the opinion that the aircraft will pass these inspections. I also see bargain basement prices for aircraft that would have fetched double or even triple the asking price a few years ago, that may or may not pass a through SIDS program.
Very little lasts forever, certainly not Cessna aircraft. Certainly I am glad I sold mine some time before SIDS were invented and purchased a machine built this century, but even it has had corrosion and age issues.
Buy a pre SIDS Cessna at your peril. A post SIDS Cessna may last another couple of decades or so if the work was done correctly and the aircraft is hangared.
Back to the subject of SIDS, whether they are mandatory in other countries or not, my observation is that they are required. Seemingly good looking Cessnas, when thoroughly inspected are nothing more than a heap of corroded metal gathered together by rivets and paint. Cessna, in this instance know what they are talking about.
I feel for some Cessna owners, their pride and joy has had its value reduced to nothing more than the second hand value of the viable parts. Looking through the Aviation Trader, I see Cessna aircraft with SIDS completed are for sale at around the value they they sold for prior to the term being coined. I also see Cessna aircraft being advertised with the rather dubious "SIDS compliant" label, which suggests to me that the owner is of the opinion that the aircraft will pass these inspections. I also see bargain basement prices for aircraft that would have fetched double or even triple the asking price a few years ago, that may or may not pass a through SIDS program.
Very little lasts forever, certainly not Cessna aircraft. Certainly I am glad I sold mine some time before SIDS were invented and purchased a machine built this century, but even it has had corrosion and age issues.
Buy a pre SIDS Cessna at your peril. A post SIDS Cessna may last another couple of decades or so if the work was done correctly and the aircraft is hangared.
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The problem with the mandatory SIDS (and other blanket rulings from the regulator) is that a few of the old Cessna's were rebuilt, maybe 5-10 years ago, due to the regular inspections finding problems or simply as a restoration project. Now these owners or subsequent owners are told they have to have a full inspection despite knowing that the whole aircraft was stripped and rebuilt not that long ago. Yes it will pass the inspection with flying colours but it is another cost imposed upon a conscientious person who looks after their aircraft.
I agree, and the biggest problem with anything mandatory is that it caters only to the lowest common denominator. I really do feel for some Cessna owners and I know of a few exactly as described by Dexta.
But what to do? Personally I am totally in favour of giving the LAME much more scope in what he/she does. Mandatory stuff makes me want to rebel ;-)
But what to do? Personally I am totally in favour of giving the LAME much more scope in what he/she does. Mandatory stuff makes me want to rebel ;-)
Thread Starter
Read what I wrote leadsled I think the radiation at altitude has diminished some of what left of your grey matter.
I said I don't suffer fools liars etc if you read that into yourself then feel free but that is not what I wrote.
I said I don't suffer fools liars etc if you read that into yourself then feel free but that is not what I wrote.
I did note what you wrote, here maybe the the problem is that you can't read and understand what you wrote. Context is everything.
Tootle pip!!
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Laws, unfortunately are always made for the lowest common denominator.
From what I've seen of a few GA aircraft that I've been involved with during SIDS inspections, there are some pretty bad aircraft out there.A similar age motor vehicle would have been totally rebuilt or scrapped long ago.
How CASA can ensure these aircraft are rebuilt or scrapped without impacting on the good ones is a difficult subject. If you talk to truckies in NSW at least, they will tell horror stories of RMA and Police inspections on their perfectly "serviceable" vehicles. Unfortunately major defects and loading problems still regularly turn up even in that almost strict regime.
How to handle SIDS in Australia in a "fair" way seems to me to be an impossible task . Denigrating the LAMEs who have to make the decisions on what needs to be done within an almost impossible regulatory system achieves nothing but show that the poster doesn't remotely understand either the legal or practical area that LAMEs work under daily for a wage well under that of the equivalent motor tradesman.
Ultimately there will be no LAMEs. Who would come into an industry that chronically underpays for work done (including the paperwork) and exposes the LAME to massive potential legal liabilities. My recommendation when asked is to avoid the job and go somewhere else that pays well and isn't so full of legal traps.
Wunwing
From what I've seen of a few GA aircraft that I've been involved with during SIDS inspections, there are some pretty bad aircraft out there.A similar age motor vehicle would have been totally rebuilt or scrapped long ago.
How CASA can ensure these aircraft are rebuilt or scrapped without impacting on the good ones is a difficult subject. If you talk to truckies in NSW at least, they will tell horror stories of RMA and Police inspections on their perfectly "serviceable" vehicles. Unfortunately major defects and loading problems still regularly turn up even in that almost strict regime.
How to handle SIDS in Australia in a "fair" way seems to me to be an impossible task . Denigrating the LAMEs who have to make the decisions on what needs to be done within an almost impossible regulatory system achieves nothing but show that the poster doesn't remotely understand either the legal or practical area that LAMEs work under daily for a wage well under that of the equivalent motor tradesman.
Ultimately there will be no LAMEs. Who would come into an industry that chronically underpays for work done (including the paperwork) and exposes the LAME to massive potential legal liabilities. My recommendation when asked is to avoid the job and go somewhere else that pays well and isn't so full of legal traps.
Wunwing
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I have been reading this thread with quite a bit of interest.
Here in New Zealand, the SID's program is also mandatory. What I am hearing around the campfire is that these inspections are turning up some serious issues with some otherwise well maintained aircraft. I have seen a few pictures of defects that would have caused serious accidents if they were left much longer. I can think of at least two very nice looking Cessna's in which wheet-bix looking wing ribs were replaced due to a SID's inspection.
As to the argument between some of the pilots and engineers on here, if a pilot makes a mistake, they generally pay the consequences immediately. By comparison, an engineer's oops may lay dormant for years before causing an accident. I have to sign an aircraft is airworthy and I have no idea what you are going to do with it once it leaves my hangar. Imagine going to jail because of a mistake you made on a job you did 20 years ago! It has happened.
LAME's take their jobs seriously and I have never met one who intentionally does a bad job. Having said that, there are good ones and some not so good.... just like pilots I guess.
You might have figured out that I am a LAME..... And a (private) pilot..... And an aircraft owner. This SID's program is not one that we have asked for, so can we please accept that it is here, we all have to make the best of it we can, and get on with it? Peacefully??
Here in New Zealand, the SID's program is also mandatory. What I am hearing around the campfire is that these inspections are turning up some serious issues with some otherwise well maintained aircraft. I have seen a few pictures of defects that would have caused serious accidents if they were left much longer. I can think of at least two very nice looking Cessna's in which wheet-bix looking wing ribs were replaced due to a SID's inspection.
As to the argument between some of the pilots and engineers on here, if a pilot makes a mistake, they generally pay the consequences immediately. By comparison, an engineer's oops may lay dormant for years before causing an accident. I have to sign an aircraft is airworthy and I have no idea what you are going to do with it once it leaves my hangar. Imagine going to jail because of a mistake you made on a job you did 20 years ago! It has happened.
LAME's take their jobs seriously and I have never met one who intentionally does a bad job. Having said that, there are good ones and some not so good.... just like pilots I guess.
You might have figured out that I am a LAME..... And a (private) pilot..... And an aircraft owner. This SID's program is not one that we have asked for, so can we please accept that it is here, we all have to make the best of it we can, and get on with it? Peacefully??
Thread Starter
Looigi,
By the sound of it, the NZ experience is much the same as here.
Even before the SIDs were published, based on experience. I decided that, if I ever bought another 100 series Cessna, I would only buy one with completely rebuilt wings. This came about as a result of an association with a program to completely rebuild C-152 to "better than new" standards, part of the "better" being effective corrosion proofing during re-assembly.
Nothing I have seen since has suggested that was an excessively cautious decision. Some C 402 have varied from ugly to scary. None, nil, naught have been "good".
One thing I like about my activities in NZ (and US/CA) is the almost complete absence of the kind of rancor that so infests aviation in Australia, with various AU groups for ever at each other's throats, handing an already pre-divided sector to the "regulators" to conquer with minimum effort.
This is evident throughout the Australian based threads/posts on pprune, and most other Australian aviation related blog sites.
With the exception of your CAA doctors (the head honcho being Australian), even NZ CAA is a relative pleasure to do business with, compared to CASA here, CAA NZ being a "can do" outfit, versus CASA "can't do".
Is is so surprising that so many other countries have followed the NZ approach to aviation legislation in their own reform programs, it works.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Sorry about the slight thread drift, folks.
By the sound of it, the NZ experience is much the same as here.
Even before the SIDs were published, based on experience. I decided that, if I ever bought another 100 series Cessna, I would only buy one with completely rebuilt wings. This came about as a result of an association with a program to completely rebuild C-152 to "better than new" standards, part of the "better" being effective corrosion proofing during re-assembly.
Nothing I have seen since has suggested that was an excessively cautious decision. Some C 402 have varied from ugly to scary. None, nil, naught have been "good".
One thing I like about my activities in NZ (and US/CA) is the almost complete absence of the kind of rancor that so infests aviation in Australia, with various AU groups for ever at each other's throats, handing an already pre-divided sector to the "regulators" to conquer with minimum effort.
This is evident throughout the Australian based threads/posts on pprune, and most other Australian aviation related blog sites.
With the exception of your CAA doctors (the head honcho being Australian), even NZ CAA is a relative pleasure to do business with, compared to CASA here, CAA NZ being a "can do" outfit, versus CASA "can't do".
Is is so surprising that so many other countries have followed the NZ approach to aviation legislation in their own reform programs, it works.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Sorry about the slight thread drift, folks.
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The amount of work that the s required just to do the inspectors is in believeable. A lot of SIDS is also referenced SBs etc which a lot of you do not wish to do. So you have to find out what has been done. What needs to be done.
A 310 for example take nearly 3 days of work in just looking and doing research into the log book. That's before you have even lifted a panel. So that takes one person 24 hours that needs to be paid for. So are you saying that it should be free ? It gets worse if it a 400. Even 100 and 200 series aircraft take a considerable amount of time. Then you have to have a guy if required to do eddy current insp that on a 310 for example going to cost upwards of $3000 and the cost continues. I and a lot of us find some of these insp a waste and it's clear that what the reasoning is behind it is. How ever it's not a pick and choose. It's also clear that it's picking up a lot of SBs etc that have not been complied with. Dose it make it safer. Yes and no.
A 310 for example take nearly 3 days of work in just looking and doing research into the log book. That's before you have even lifted a panel. So that takes one person 24 hours that needs to be paid for. So are you saying that it should be free ? It gets worse if it a 400. Even 100 and 200 series aircraft take a considerable amount of time. Then you have to have a guy if required to do eddy current insp that on a 310 for example going to cost upwards of $3000 and the cost continues. I and a lot of us find some of these insp a waste and it's clear that what the reasoning is behind it is. How ever it's not a pick and choose. It's also clear that it's picking up a lot of SBs etc that have not been complied with. Dose it make it safer. Yes and no.
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NZ Advantage
The SIDS experience in NZ has been better managed because of a couple of significant differences. NZ does not have CASA Schedule 5 and the ARA process addressed many aircraft poor records and compliance matters with modifications and repairs many years ago. There are other advantages like the 337 system but all of what has been implemented in NZ could be implemented in Australia. Except it won't work if it's Australianised like other regulatory reform.
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Have a look at some of the photographs on the following and then say SIDs is a waste of money.
CASA Airworthiness Bulletin
CASA Airworthiness Bulletin
PLovett: Have a look at some of the photographs on the following and then say SIDs is a waste of money.
CASA Airworthiness Bulletin
CASA Airworthiness Bulletin
You shouldn't need a SIDS programme to find those issues. Some of the examples in that bulletin are examples of gross negligence or incompetence. They were certainly did not come about through proper maintenance.
If the relevant manufacturers inspections had been carried out by a competent person most of the those examples would have been found without a SIDS programme. For those items that may not be picked up on an inspection checklist, my experience has been that any engineer worth his salt will know from experience to look for these issues as well.