Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
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SunnySA,
There was a C206, at 8000ft transitting Williamtown, bound for Bankstown. It had no problems. One thing I'd like to make clear, a clearance was being arranged, it just had to be at 7000 or 9000, as MDX was catching AZC. FIS5 went back to MDX to ask what height he'd prefer, but was told they were resuming planned track.
I can't recall what the weather was like further south, I'll have to look it up for you and get back. I have the COMPLETE transcript of all communications, from everybody (MDX, FIS5, Willy and Sector one, so that you may see for yourself what was going on prior to him turning west if you want me to put them up?
There was a C206, at 8000ft transitting Williamtown, bound for Bankstown. It had no problems. One thing I'd like to make clear, a clearance was being arranged, it just had to be at 7000 or 9000, as MDX was catching AZC. FIS5 went back to MDX to ask what height he'd prefer, but was told they were resuming planned track.
I can't recall what the weather was like further south, I'll have to look it up for you and get back. I have the COMPLETE transcript of all communications, from everybody (MDX, FIS5, Willy and Sector one, so that you may see for yourself what was going on prior to him turning west if you want me to put them up?
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I always find it interesting when someone on the ground sitting behind a screen (or not) cops some blame for an aircraft accident. In this case the pilot was clearly the one make ALL the decisions except for the one that allowed him through Willy.
Willy non clearance in this case was a small contributor but not the cause. Any pilots flying in and around Sydney for any more than five minutes know Willy is unpredictable with clearances and the reality is if your planning this area you need a back up plan. Its common sense. I cant see in all seriousness how we can blame Willy (no I am not military).
To draw a comparison - A friend of mine crashed in a Cheyenne at Benalla back in 2004 and the controllers were found partly to blame there because they knew he was well off course for some time and they didnt say a word to the pilot even though he began an RNAV in bad weather. In that case I agreed with that finding.
When you stack the odds against yourself like this guy in MDX did it only needs a couple of things to go wrong and your in serious trouble very quickly. Plenty of other outcomes were possible had the pilot taken better decisions - and we are all not immune to this.
But yes Dick, in this day and age we should have better ability to plan and fly through Willy - especially since we are all having to invest in ADSB and a very high level of fault tolerant GPS units. Surely we can use this technology to provide a safe lane (either IFR or VFR) through.
Willy non clearance in this case was a small contributor but not the cause. Any pilots flying in and around Sydney for any more than five minutes know Willy is unpredictable with clearances and the reality is if your planning this area you need a back up plan. Its common sense. I cant see in all seriousness how we can blame Willy (no I am not military).
To draw a comparison - A friend of mine crashed in a Cheyenne at Benalla back in 2004 and the controllers were found partly to blame there because they knew he was well off course for some time and they didnt say a word to the pilot even though he began an RNAV in bad weather. In that case I agreed with that finding.
When you stack the odds against yourself like this guy in MDX did it only needs a couple of things to go wrong and your in serious trouble very quickly. Plenty of other outcomes were possible had the pilot taken better decisions - and we are all not immune to this.
But yes Dick, in this day and age we should have better ability to plan and fly through Willy - especially since we are all having to invest in ADSB and a very high level of fault tolerant GPS units. Surely we can use this technology to provide a safe lane (either IFR or VFR) through.
LeadSled
Nope, I have worked Sydney Sectors (1,2,3,4,5,6) and Sydney Tower, access to Restricted Areas has improved but their proximity to Sydney Airport does impact civil traffic with domestic and international operators flying extra track miles.
Can any of you actually justify the vast swathed of military airspace in Australia, compared to USA or UK/Europe
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And there lies the point. He had to ask for cleareance. Why. Why did he need cleareance. Because of the raaf that's why. May be just may be he would have all made it if he could see some lights. Flying into that he had no chance. Is the pilot got some fault yes he has.
Also can some one tell me why we need to turn runway lights on. The rest of the airport lite up like a Xmas tree but we forced to turn runway lights on.
Also can some one tell me why we need to turn runway lights on. The rest of the airport lite up like a Xmas tree but we forced to turn runway lights on.
Dick did not say that it was all the RAAF fault, the program acknowledged the actions of the PIC, but THE WHOLE POINT was that a clearance coastal would have almost certainly broken the building chain of events.
It only takes one action to prevent the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up, and the potential accident does not happen. A prompt clearance to track coastal through Willy would almost certainly have been that action.
It only takes one action to prevent the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up, and the potential accident does not happen. A prompt clearance to track coastal through Willy would almost certainly have been that action.
Emotional arguments aside, the PIC did them in in the end, really, not the RAAF controllers.
Good luck to you, Dick, if you can get freer traffic flow through Willy airspace, but as I said earlier on, the cynical spin is too much.
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If he could have gone costal would he off. Would he have pick to fly over tiger country and into that strom I would have thought not. Should that base be there from the coast to the range no it should not.
The Australian aviation system is governed by old military rules to this day. Rules from the 1914s that are still forced on use all. Ex military personal that leave and get jobs in casa. Like one I heard ask where is you duplicate inspection for knots on the vent flaps on a hot air ballon. It's this same mentality that is still being forced apron us all.
At the end of the day life's where lost that should not have been. Simple chooses not made but the fact remains if he had of been able to go costal there was a better chance for him to get away with it.
The Australian aviation system is governed by old military rules to this day. Rules from the 1914s that are still forced on use all. Ex military personal that leave and get jobs in casa. Like one I heard ask where is you duplicate inspection for knots on the vent flaps on a hot air ballon. It's this same mentality that is still being forced apron us all.
At the end of the day life's where lost that should not have been. Simple chooses not made but the fact remains if he had of been able to go costal there was a better chance for him to get away with it.
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My very good friend Wing Commander C.J. Sugden (DFC and Bar) once said.
"The system is designed to allow an average pilot having an average day to get his passengers home safely "
Personally, as i said, sending a NVMC single engine out over the Barringtons on a bad night does not measure up, no matter how average the pilot might have been. And in this case, for no reason other than "this is our airspace ".
"The system is designed to allow an average pilot having an average day to get his passengers home safely "
Personally, as i said, sending a NVMC single engine out over the Barringtons on a bad night does not measure up, no matter how average the pilot might have been. And in this case, for no reason other than "this is our airspace ".
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Just so it's clear..
The program will cover that terrible VH-MDX Cessna 210 crash in the Barrington Tops area. This is where five people were killed and the crash site has never been discovered. The families of those on board have never had closure and been able to arrange proper burials.
I was extensively interviewed and probably had a different perspective to most. I blame the situation on the military airspace at Williamtown .
I was extensively interviewed and probably had a different perspective to most. I blame the situation on the military airspace at Williamtown .
I very much dislike second guessing anyone (there for the grace of god go I and all of that stuff... But whilst we are in the situation of calling heavily on the speculation brothers.... to add to what AOTW has said).
"ATC, MDX, how long is the anticipated hold?"
"MDX, ATC, Approximately 2 minutes.."
"Copied, Happy with that, MDX"
----------------------------------------------------
For all of those barking about the present day situation..
Considering there are almost 100 military aircraft on the base, operating for the majority of the time under IFR, a wide variety of commercial operations, the vast majority of which are IFR, why does it come as a surprise that in a VFR light aircraft that you are the lowest on the priority pile?
"ATC, MDX, how long is the anticipated hold?"
"MDX, ATC, Approximately 2 minutes.."
"Copied, Happy with that, MDX"
----------------------------------------------------
For all of those barking about the present day situation..
Considering there are almost 100 military aircraft on the base, operating for the majority of the time under IFR, a wide variety of commercial operations, the vast majority of which are IFR, why does it come as a surprise that in a VFR light aircraft that you are the lowest on the priority pile?
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Yeh Vfr light aircraft flying into **** over **** shot country with problems five killed lowest priority Yeap and some of you just won't to have ago at me cause of the way I write.
Considering there are almost 100 military aircraft on the base, operating for the majority of the time under IFR, a wide variety of commercial operations, the vast majority of which are IFR, why does it come as a surprise that in a VFR light aircraft that you are the lowest on the priority pile?
(Can you give the dyslexia schtick a rest, yr right?)
Thanks 'Leady' for yr last post as I was losing interest fast here with all the bitching about Dick going on.
The 5 men are gone & at this stage so is the plane but hopefully they will find the plane someday thru even more awareness such as this Ch 7 program & put to rest not only the poor unfortunates but the whole sorry saga of a story, forever!
Wmk2
The 5 men are gone & at this stage so is the plane but hopefully they will find the plane someday thru even more awareness such as this Ch 7 program & put to rest not only the poor unfortunates but the whole sorry saga of a story, forever!
Wmk2
Questions:
1. If you can't plan to WLM, then why did AZC have it on his flight plan as an alternate?
2. Why blame the Willy controllers when it was the civil ATC that caused all the delays? If you read the transcripts - which are freely available online via the National Archives website - when first asked for a clearance through Willy airspace, the Willy controller said no problems. When the FIS tried to co-ordinate the clearance through Sydney Sector 1, it was they who said clearance was denied because they would not accept VFR in the airspace. It was during this time that Willy said that transit through at 8000 was unavailable due slower preceding traffic (AZC) but 7000 or 9000 was available. When they asked for coastal, Willy once again was happy but Sydney said no VFR above 6000 and that they had some concerns regarding the weather below 6000 coastal and there would be a delay whilst they checked it out. At no time did the Willy controller deny entry.
I might also point out - IIRC - that it was Sydney that asked for the 4000 squawk with ident. When the Willy controller was asked if he held MDX, they said that they had a primary paint (at 46nm?) but 4000 wasn't programmed into their radar. They asked if the aircraft could squawk 3000 with ident and it was confirmed as identified by Willy.
Dick, I respect you but why this crusade to persecute the military regarding this tragic accident? They did absolutely nothing wrong.
1. If you can't plan to WLM, then why did AZC have it on his flight plan as an alternate?
2. Why blame the Willy controllers when it was the civil ATC that caused all the delays? If you read the transcripts - which are freely available online via the National Archives website - when first asked for a clearance through Willy airspace, the Willy controller said no problems. When the FIS tried to co-ordinate the clearance through Sydney Sector 1, it was they who said clearance was denied because they would not accept VFR in the airspace. It was during this time that Willy said that transit through at 8000 was unavailable due slower preceding traffic (AZC) but 7000 or 9000 was available. When they asked for coastal, Willy once again was happy but Sydney said no VFR above 6000 and that they had some concerns regarding the weather below 6000 coastal and there would be a delay whilst they checked it out. At no time did the Willy controller deny entry.
I might also point out - IIRC - that it was Sydney that asked for the 4000 squawk with ident. When the Willy controller was asked if he held MDX, they said that they had a primary paint (at 46nm?) but 4000 wasn't programmed into their radar. They asked if the aircraft could squawk 3000 with ident and it was confirmed as identified by Willy.
Dick, I respect you but why this crusade to persecute the military regarding this tragic accident? They did absolutely nothing wrong.
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I agree a review of RAAF airspace use is far overdue not just at Wily but all over Australia, but to say the RAAF is to blame for this accident is drawing a very long bow
If a can digress for a moment and talk about my experience in the same area less than 10 years after this accident. My flight was a day VFR full reporting flight from CG to BK. I had a PPL and building hours for my CPL. The WX forecast indicated it was good VFR conditions all the way to BK. From TRE I planned to use the inland route behind willy. Approaching TRE I noticed the WX along the coast seemed to be less than ideal VFR conditions, so I was pleased my choice to plan inland. As I approached the start of the inland route I noticed the WX was starting to move in around me, I did an orbit to see if I could make it back to TRE, no joy WX had moved in. I thought should I go down to 500' and try to scud run, not a good idea.
Above me was clear so, climbed, passing about 5000' the engine started to make a strange sound and SYD FIS made a broadcasting stating aircraft to the North West of Willy you are about to enter Willy restricted areas. I knew they were referring to me so I advised them of my problems and that the WX looks CLR towards Willy and I'm tracking that way. I levelled out around 6000-6500 and a few mins later I was told to contact Willy. I informed them I was a VFR pilot with the weather closing in, engine was making an usual sound and required DCT willy.
The controllers did a great job assisting me around the weather and providing guidance all the way to willy. Upon arrival in the circuit area, the X-wind was fluctuating around the limits of the aircraft (and me). The controllers offered me the use of the taxiway Hotel (long taxiway into wind) and I believe it was used at times by the FAC Winjeels, if I needed it. In the end I landed on 12. Submitted the required paperwork (225) and that was the end of it.
So why my long story, well I think it shows the PIC of MDX had another option that he didn't take. Once the WX started to close in, he could have done what I did and just turn towards Willy and advise SYD FIS he was in trouble. Unfortunately we will never know why he didn't do this but perhaps the reasons were;
1. Fatigue, the flight from CG to BK was 3 hours, and a rough guess the time down from North QLD to CG would have been around 4 hours. So allowing for all the ground time before DEP and on the ground in CG he would have been on duty for around 8 -9 hours at the time of the event.
2. Commercial Pressure: Although the flight was private, how many hours had he worked out to complete the job. Perhaps he calculated it on the min time with perfect winds and any delays would cost him.
So who or what is to blame for this accident, well there is not one single cause as in most accidents. The delay in RAAF providing clearance was only a small factor in the events that lead to this accident.
I'm not trying to defend the RAAF, but other then this tragic accident how many other accidents have been attributed to aircraft not bring able to a clearance through a RAAF airspace. My guess is there have have been more accidents caused by pilots scud running to avoid Civil airspace. So rather than point the blame at one department and get so angry and uptight about it. Use that energy to educate the current generation of PPL/CPL pilots about what happened that night, such as NVFR into IMC, flying an aircraft that wasn't serviceable and provide them with tools on how to avoid the same traps.
For the families hopefully the wreckage will be found soon, so they can finally get some closure.
If a can digress for a moment and talk about my experience in the same area less than 10 years after this accident. My flight was a day VFR full reporting flight from CG to BK. I had a PPL and building hours for my CPL. The WX forecast indicated it was good VFR conditions all the way to BK. From TRE I planned to use the inland route behind willy. Approaching TRE I noticed the WX along the coast seemed to be less than ideal VFR conditions, so I was pleased my choice to plan inland. As I approached the start of the inland route I noticed the WX was starting to move in around me, I did an orbit to see if I could make it back to TRE, no joy WX had moved in. I thought should I go down to 500' and try to scud run, not a good idea.
Above me was clear so, climbed, passing about 5000' the engine started to make a strange sound and SYD FIS made a broadcasting stating aircraft to the North West of Willy you are about to enter Willy restricted areas. I knew they were referring to me so I advised them of my problems and that the WX looks CLR towards Willy and I'm tracking that way. I levelled out around 6000-6500 and a few mins later I was told to contact Willy. I informed them I was a VFR pilot with the weather closing in, engine was making an usual sound and required DCT willy.
The controllers did a great job assisting me around the weather and providing guidance all the way to willy. Upon arrival in the circuit area, the X-wind was fluctuating around the limits of the aircraft (and me). The controllers offered me the use of the taxiway Hotel (long taxiway into wind) and I believe it was used at times by the FAC Winjeels, if I needed it. In the end I landed on 12. Submitted the required paperwork (225) and that was the end of it.
So why my long story, well I think it shows the PIC of MDX had another option that he didn't take. Once the WX started to close in, he could have done what I did and just turn towards Willy and advise SYD FIS he was in trouble. Unfortunately we will never know why he didn't do this but perhaps the reasons were;
1. Fatigue, the flight from CG to BK was 3 hours, and a rough guess the time down from North QLD to CG would have been around 4 hours. So allowing for all the ground time before DEP and on the ground in CG he would have been on duty for around 8 -9 hours at the time of the event.
2. Commercial Pressure: Although the flight was private, how many hours had he worked out to complete the job. Perhaps he calculated it on the min time with perfect winds and any delays would cost him.
So who or what is to blame for this accident, well there is not one single cause as in most accidents. The delay in RAAF providing clearance was only a small factor in the events that lead to this accident.
I'm not trying to defend the RAAF, but other then this tragic accident how many other accidents have been attributed to aircraft not bring able to a clearance through a RAAF airspace. My guess is there have have been more accidents caused by pilots scud running to avoid Civil airspace. So rather than point the blame at one department and get so angry and uptight about it. Use that energy to educate the current generation of PPL/CPL pilots about what happened that night, such as NVFR into IMC, flying an aircraft that wasn't serviceable and provide them with tools on how to avoid the same traps.
For the families hopefully the wreckage will be found soon, so they can finally get some closure.
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evilro
I didn't see where dick had ago at the raaf controller. What I see is there is no need for the restricted airspace to be so large and no lane to use with out cleareance and not over tiger country. Had he been able to go costal with visible lights chances are he may have made it as it was he had zero chance.
I didn't see where dick had ago at the raaf controller. What I see is there is no need for the restricted airspace to be so large and no lane to use with out cleareance and not over tiger country. Had he been able to go costal with visible lights chances are he may have made it as it was he had zero chance.
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I didn't see where dick had ago at the raaf controller. What I see is there is no need for the restricted airspace to be so large and no lane to use with out cleareance and not over tiger country. Had he been able to go costal with visible lights chances are he may have made it as it was he had zero chance.
0934.36 SYD FIS: Mike Delta X-Ray, roger. Is the aircraft equipped with pitot heat.... heating?
0934.40 MDX: Its a single... and we'll try to continue our flight plan.
0934.45 SYD FIS: Mike Delta X-Ray, roger Sydney. The lights are on at Maitland. The lights are on at Maitland.
0934.57 MDX: Say again, Maitland.
0934.00 SYD FIS: Mike Delta X-Ray, Sydney. The lights are on at Maitland if you wish to try and divert and make a landing at Maitland.
0935.05 MDX: Mike Delta X-Ray. No. We thought we had a... Just to compound things, we thought we had a cockpit fire but... ah... we seem to have resolved that little problem. West Maitland, but would appreciate if you would leave the lights on for a while.