Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX

[Hempy]

Originally Posted by OZBUSDRIVER

Can see this argument isn't going to end nicely....cya

I'm out so don't leave on my regard.

Dick. I wish you all the best in shaking up the powers that be. I even understand why you are taking this approach to push it. I just can't morally agree.

[VH-XXX]

I can't understand why anyone would argue about this. East Sale play nicely with VFR transits and it would be great if Willy would too.

As pilots we should all be writing letters, not arguing about it.

I'd like to see it opened for RAA traffic too so as to reduce the transit of tiger country for VFR lighties.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

In the situation which exists in other countries the Willy controller equivalent would have had the flight plan details and advised the pilot to expect clearance at a certain level.

Even today the Willy controller gets no details on the plan.....

How much detail is required for an ad-hoc clearance ffs? I was in FS back in the day and rego, type, route & level requested were all that was needed to initiate a clearance with ATC if they had no details. It wasn't that hard.

He at least had the option of being full reporting. You got rid of that too Dick.

[flying-spike]

Missing the point, or more correctly the holes.

I am not for one minute critical of the pilot or attacking his integrity. The poor guys is dead as are his passengers and who knows what pressures he was under to complete the flight. I am merely trying to point out that there were several factors leading to this tragedy.
If the story tonight is to be believed the the flight was a Charter flight that appears to have been planned as private (previous post of an extract of the report). It was planned night VFR. So for starters illegal on a couple of grounds.
Hearsay evidence that the aircraft was experiencing technical issues on arrival at OOL let alone on departure. Also pushing onto forecast poor weather. He apparently looked tired on arrival at OOL, no wonder his decision making was impaired, exactly the time to recognize the issues and re assess the situation. He would no -doubt have had to wait til the next day for repairs so that is another factor.
It is oversimplifying the situation to blame, and Dick does use the word, RAAF ATC as the cause of the tragedy.
Yes it would be nice to transit Willamtown or another Defence airspace at will but if the other issues were addressed and they spent the night at OOL it may have been a whole different outcome.
Lets not let these 6 deaths be in vain and recognize the lessons to be learned in stead of being dragged down the blame path to feed an "expert'" agenda.

[Skyfox671]

MDX Night VFR/CHTR Operation?

I have to ask a question? why was a single preforming a charter
that a look at the BOM breifing, which in the early 80's were vastly
different products granted, had the potential to become IFR

Was the rule different then as it was 8 years before I had my first licence,
but Night Charter/Commercial Operations are not permitted for single engine
aircraft (Standfast PC12) because of the lack of fall back systems.

Having flown the Centruion II on a number of occasions, are designed for operating IFR, but when the electrics start to fail, which was mentioned on the show, Why was the flight not stopped.

Potential Bad WX down Track. Instrument doubt, Electrical issues. They say it takes 5 things to contribute to an accident. MDX had three, possibly 4 with Push on Itis/PIC Fatiuge.

It is fine to give the RAAF a hard time, and at times they can be difficult, probably like the times you have been required to hold your self? but
I have to ask questions about the operation it self. Now if it was legal to preform a CHTR single engine at night/IFR then that is fine, Also I accept
the media may have gotten the termonology wrong ie if it was just a private operation then I guess it falls in to a different category.

But I would never offer a CHTR Service, to anyone, Single engine, NVFR or
N IFR in a 210. I have to confess, I would rather declair a PAN and just bust the airspace, get the 225, and be alive to receive the summons whilst breathing, than be stuck on a hill/moutian. It sounds like the night mare scenario of CFIT and Instrument failure/Electrical system failure. Also there was a problem with the electrical system, you can hear it on the AM transmissions.

[Skyfox671]

NVFR and Commercial Ops

Your point is very valid, I have sent a post a few minutes ago echo'ing
your sentament. I dont know if the rules were different then, as I got my
first Licence in 88' so the rules were probably different in 81.

Single at night VFR Bad WX failing systems. very tragic,
Particularly the last few radio calls. I can only imagine what he was thinking
with the radio call below 5000 when he was told the LSALT was 5500. One call you never want to hear.

[CWO Geoff]

Re Programme VH-MDX

This programme and Dick Smith's performance were both worthy of an Oscar for [fictional] content and comment. So much missed out. So many inaccuracies. What humbug to lay the blame with the RAAF when it was clearly the pilot who was at fault.


Just what/where did the actions of the RAAF Controller at WLM contribute to this accident. From my years as a private pilot and RAAF Air Traffic Controller this programme has clearly shown me just how media can be manipulated. I served at WLM ATC 1982-3 and I base my comments on what I recall from those days.


Shame on you Dick for blaming the RAAF when as far as I'm concerned it was Pilot Error, possibly aided by mechanical failure. From my time in RAAF ATC we always tried to assist civilian aircraft if at all possible.


On a Sunday night I very much doubt that all the WLM R areas were active. After Base working hours, I remember releasing as much airspace as possible as soon as possible unless we had an inbound IFR flight when we would retain the CTR for positive control. The WLM CTR only extended to 12nm in the northern sectors. TRE is about 60nm to the N of WLM. Controlled airspace beyond 12nm N of WLM commenced at FL125 and belonged to WLM only when R580A was active and from ground level to FL125 when R578B was active. When those areas were not active they were released to FS5 and Sector 1.


One has to ask the following questions...
1. Why did the pilot fly with unserviceable instruments?
2. Why did he push on when the weather forecasts AND conditions showed that there would be problems maintaining NVMC?
3. Why didn't he land at TRE?
4. Why didn't he plan COT in light of the weather forecast?
5. The pilot chose to go via CRV when he should have persevered with tracking via the coast.
6. Looking through the transcript I note that MDX was radar identified at time 28, position 36nm N of SGT on the MSO to SGT track - something wrong here if MDX reported CRV at 18, especially with such a strong westerly blowing!
7. With all those instruments u/s, just how did he manage to fix his position at CRV?


There are more questions that I could pose, but such a strong condemnation on the RAAF by Dick is, in my opinion, most certainly misplaced. To me it sounds as though the whole flight was an accident just waiting to happen.

[500N]

Dick

You said earlier
" I have sat on committees with the heads of everything including the Air force all to no avail."

What was the reason they gave for no change occurring ?

Secondly, with the rotation of staff, over a 30 year period that is some change in staff yet you haven't been able to get a change yet others have said that Sale and other military areas are much more accommodating.

Has anyone asked directly what is so Williamtown specific that doesn't allow flexibility on the part of this location compared to others as posted in this thread ?

[Ascend Charlie]

Having watched the show last night, I am more convinced that the problem lay with the pilot and not Willy ATC. There were plenty of indicators that told him that things weren't all they should be, and a pilot ALWAYS has the option of just doing what he feels is necessary and worry about the 225 later.

He said he could see the lights on the coast, but launched into the gloop just to avoid waiting for a clearance - "an orbit would have taken him back into the bad weather" shows that he thought he was only 3nm from the bad stuff anyway, so why push on?

TELL the traffickers what you are going to do, don't just ask them.

Sure, Dick want the mil airspace to be more available, but (and I am a supporter of Mr Smith) this was an emotive and not so correct way of doing it.

[flying-spike]

Must miss TV

Thankfully I won't have time to time to watch Channel 7 this morning to see "Aviation Expert" Dick Smith proffering himself to point the blame at RAAF ATC.
Unless I am seriously wrong that is what will happen. Good thing he only got his paws on what is now CASA and not BASI as he would have set that back 100years. Lets trot Geoff Thomas as well. He can practice his serious and concerned expert look while Dick mops up the tears. What a waste of time and senseless stirriing of the emotions for the still grieving families. Just use your resources to find the wreckage and give them some peace.

[004wercras]

Maybe Dick and aviation non-expert G.Thomas can hire a SIM and reenact the event, together?

[kingRB]

A shame this publicity had to be about this and not more centered around actually finding MDX, which is really all those that are still involved with the case want to see resolved. I suppose Channel 7's program wouldn't have even bothered giving this story a go if they didn't have Dick's spin story trying to make waves out of nothing.

I'd say most of the families who lost people to this accident are probably looking at Mr. Smith at the moment wondering what the hell he is even going on about.

Here's hoping part 2 next week looks more closely at the efforts ongoing in trying to find MDX and no more of this sensationalized rubbish from Dick.

[kingRB]

MDX Original Flight Plan

posted on behalf of RatsoreA,

MDX's original flight plan for those interested:

[tric1960]

I find it disgusting that someone uses such an emotional approach and attempts to blame the RAAF controllers for the deaths of these men so they can fly their toys down the coast with less hassle.
Of course, to the ice cream licking public who don't know prop wash doesn't come in 1L bottles, this is quite the revelation and Dick will have uncovered quite the conspiracy. The real truth is bad decisions by the PIC.
Blaming the delay by the RAAF controllers is akin to an accident you have on the road because of an earlier red light holding you up.

[mickjoebill]

Thankfully I won't have time to time to watch Channel 7 this morning to see "Aviation Expert" Dick Smith proffering himself to point the blame at RAAF ATC.

Didn't see the show but saw Dick this morning.
My summation of his interview is that the pilot made mistakes, but if he could have flown up the coast he would have made it.

He feels RAAF are partly to blame because they have known of the issue for years and despite saying they will do something nothing has happened.



Mickjoebill

[Dick Smith]

I just can’t believe what I am reading on this site. It’s amazing – more than thirty-one years later how people still have their minds fixed on rules which are decades out of date.

Let me give you a little bit more of the facts. I am taking them from the excellent publication called, “Operation Phoenix – the Theoretical Search for the Crash Site of Cessna C210 VH-MDX” written and researched by Donald E Readford. It is an excellent publication.

Let’s look at some of the times.

18.51-28 (local time 6.51:28) Sydney Flight Service asks Williamtown for a clearance for MDX – preferably direct Taree to Williamtown

Then lots of communications backwards and forwards between Sydney Flight Service, Sydney ATC and Willi. In effect, the clearance is not given so the pilot then starts to track towards Craven.

Now I ask you – how do you find Craven on a pitch dark night? It’s simply a reporting point and these are the days before GPS. Remember – the pilot at all times is forced by law to remain on the flight service frequency when the Flight Service Officer is not allowed and does not have a radar display.

19.28-00 – yes, some thirty-seven minutes after the original clearance request, the pilot says to Sydney Flight Service -
MDX – I’m struggling to get to 85 (8,500) – can you give me a vector to West Maitland.

Sydney Flight Service says, “Roger” but of course then has to call the Sydney Sector One Radar Controller to try and find out where the aircraft is. For the first time they find out something which is staggeringly amazing – they expect the aircraft to be tracking between Craven and Singleton, but in fact it is some thirty miles away. Yes, thirty miles away! It has crossed the Range and has actually crossed the Mt Sandon to Singleton track. That means that for over thirty minutes it has headed in exactly the wrong direction and no-one has told the pilot. That is because in those days (and resisted by most of you for the next fifteen years until I changed it), in non-controlled airspace and even under radar coverage the Pilots were prevented from talking to a Radar Controller.

The Sydney Radar Controller actually identifies the plane is forty miles north of Singleton on the Singleton to Mt Sandon track.

19:41-10 – more than eleven minutes later – the Sydney Radar Controller actually calls Williamtown Radar Operator and says, “you get your radar on, mate”. The Willi Radar Operator can’t find the plane and then calls back to the Sector One Radar Controller and says

19:41-45 “yeah, may not be on our radar. Sorry mate. We may not have 4,000 dialled up”. This is despite the fact that the pilot was told to squark 4,000.

Readers here will see what an amazing stuff-up this is and, by the way, all of this is covered up by the BASI investigation – there is no mention at all of it.

Finally, the Willi Radar Operator sees the aircraft on the screen and at

19:44-54 he says, “yes, I’ve got a squark about 45 miles in the Barrington Tops – just about 320 Williamtown 45”.

Now I ask thread followers to look at where that location is. How could an aircraft possibly get there without ever being told? Of course, the pilot headed in the wrong direction for thirty minutes but wasn’t told and, can you believe it, the Williamtown Radar Controller and the Sydney Radar Controller, who knew the aircraft had planned to fly from Taree to Craven then to Singleton was heading in the wrong direction but didn’t tell anyone.
19:46-32 Sydney asks the MDX pilot “what his endurance” is!

And the last call from the aircraft – in a screaming panic –

19:48-19 "MDX .. 5,000" (Pilot sounds particularly scared).

This is nearly an hour after the pilot asked for the original clearance through Williamtown.

What is incredibly outrageous is that nothing has been learned and if you look at the majority of posters on this thread, they haven’t learned anything.

The reason I am making this public is so we can fix the obvious problem and not have a repeat of the accident.

It took me something like fifteen years after this accident to change the airspace so all pilots in radar-covered airspace could talk directly to a Radar Operator – that was a start and resisted by many people on this site.

Whilst a requirement remains in the Regulations to state that pilots flying from Coffs Harbour south cannot flight plan over Williamtown, this risk remains. This must be changed.

[RatsoreA]

Dick,

Check your PM's.

[blacksmith]

I actually see it as two sets of issues:

1. The errors of judgment made by the PIC contribute substantially.
2. The Williamtown Airspace is difficult to transit - more than it should be. I never seem to have dramas going through Amberley or Richmond IFR in a lightie but Williamtown "transit" usually involves flying at 10,000 feet or tracking via Scone etc or some other “scenic” excursion.

If 2 above was better, this may have meant a safe arrival for MDX, but it is not in itself causal - probably only contributing.

But should we make Williamtown restricted areas easier to get through? Absolutely! I learn't to fly in 1981 - In 1980s there was no GPS and the barest of SSR. Now we have better radar, GPS, ADSB being adopted etc etc. Surely we have the technology to be able to separate a little bit of transmitting light aircraft traffic from the military users as seems to be able to occur at AMB at RI.

[MalBAU]

What about Brenda Hean and Max Price ? VH-AQL

Channel seven is reporting VH-MDX is Australia's only unsolved civil aviation mystery

What about Brenda Hean and Max Price ? VH-AQL

VH-AQL

Flight VH-MDX is Australia's only unsolved civil aviation mystery!!!!!!!!!!

https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-nig...plane-mystery/

Watch Whatever Happened To Brenda Hean? Online | smh.tv

[A320_CPTN]

Should have never departed.

I think that you are right. I can not stand G. Thomas. Now a bloke that I use to look up to is getting the same way.

VH-MDX Should have never taken off. That is the end of the story. it is not about what happened after wheels up. he was in strife, he should have declared an emergency, as soon as that was done he would have been able to go anywhere he likes, with help to boot.

I feel really bad for the family's of this crash, as I do for family's of all aviation incidents. Sometimes there are things that just go wrong. Then there are the times that poor planning and decision making take over.

The airspace was a known factor and he was "hoping" to get clearance.

Pilot Error.