Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
Dick, as an airline pilot the fact I see that I'm doing a NTL sector on my roster infuriates me. Maybe it's not the controllers personally, but the procedures they have to abide by, but I absolutely loathe going in and out of there. It's a complete circus, even on a CAVOK day.
I personally don't think you have sensationalised the MDX story at all. I know you are driving change, and I hope we get this, but more importantly find the wreckage.
I personally don't think you have sensationalised the MDX story at all. I know you are driving change, and I hope we get this, but more importantly find the wreckage.
Thread Starter
Hempy. I have attempted for over two decades to get this changed .
I have sat on committees with the heads of everything including the Air force all to no avail.
I have written over 20 letters.
We will see what happens this time.
Hope we don't have to have another similar accident before Williamtown is shared fairly with civilian traffic.
And Craven - you try listening to a fellow pilot about to die and remain un emotional.
I have sat on committees with the heads of everything including the Air force all to no avail.
I have written over 20 letters.
We will see what happens this time.
Hope we don't have to have another similar accident before Williamtown is shared fairly with civilian traffic.
And Craven - you try listening to a fellow pilot about to die and remain un emotional.
Dick, pre-planning makes very little difference. The controller doesn't sit there waiting for you to call at the nominated time with a corridor of reserved airspace for you. You may or may not turn up after all. All it means is they have your details to hand a little quicker. Calling a few minutes earlier than required is always a good idea.
Last edited by le Pingouin; 1st Jun 2014 at 11:08. Reason: Additional comment
I personally don't find Dicks comments seedy at all. Lets face it we all get emotional at times no one is immune from that human trait & I wouldn't for one second begin to know the depth of this story that Dick has or his aviation experience but that's not what this should be all about guys/gals, this Ch7 'show' hopefully will bring more awareness about this unsolved mystery & that can only be a good thing despite some peoples efforts to drag this sad event down to gutter level & become a slanging match!!
Wmk2
Wmk2
...furthermore, any pilot with any bit of decency, to criticise any other aviator for getting emotional over someone's death is quite remarkable. 30 hours, 30 months, 30 odd years after an accident..who gives a ****. I must of missed that bit during my training many years ago when you have to become a robot after hearing another fellow aviator in distress on a voice recording of an accident. Truly astounding. 
Sprucegoose
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I'm all for opening up military airspace as they do in other parts of the World. But even with a flight plan in place you may still be subject to routing change and significant holding depending on operational requirements.
As far as this accident is concerned there were many chances to stop the chain of events long before they got anywhere near Williamtown, sadly the rest is now history.
PS: Great post Wally!
As far as this accident is concerned there were many chances to stop the chain of events long before they got anywhere near Williamtown, sadly the rest is now history.
PS: Great post Wally!
Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
How about all parties responsible (CASA, ASA, RAAF, AOC holders with regular operations in that airspace) run a risk assessment through their respective Safety Management Systems? It would be interesting to see the outcomes.
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Clearance over Williamtown
Dick, in the program and in your post you stated ... "it was not possible to put in a flight plan over Willy. That ridiculous rule remains today."
Can you please state the reference for that claim?
The 29 May 2014 ERSA at the bottom of page 689 and over the page describes the "Overhead route: Hexham Bridge-Williamtown AD-Soldiers Point-Broughton Island" so where does it say you can't flight plan this route? In fact, on page 688 note 1 states "VFR ACFT should submit FPL to reduce delays in ACFT processing".
Can you please state the reference for that claim?
The 29 May 2014 ERSA at the bottom of page 689 and over the page describes the "Overhead route: Hexham Bridge-Williamtown AD-Soldiers Point-Broughton Island" so where does it say you can't flight plan this route? In fact, on page 688 note 1 states "VFR ACFT should submit FPL to reduce delays in ACFT processing".
Sprucegoose
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Aircraft had a flight plan in the system (we all did back then), also he gave a position report in the audio. You seemed to have lots of information on the accident at your disposal Mr Smith, what was the original planned route?
PS: Not much good to refer to an ERSA issued in 2014, need to be working with the information available at the time. Anyone got an old VFG?
PS: Not much good to refer to an ERSA issued in 2014, need to be working with the information available at the time. Anyone got an old VFG?
'frab' that may very well be the case (ERSA route planning) but the key words there.........."VFR aircraft should submit FPL to reduce delays in aircraft processing", is the catalyst for this part of the conversation, that 'processing' could also apply to the control zone boundary meaning a delay & that is where we are pretty much right now amongst these discussions, the delay the PIC had which ultimately made him take the more dangerous route.
The pilot obviously didn't know how long a clearance would take to obtain & considering that he was now loaded up with lots of challenges he didn't have the luxury of chatting over it here like we are in the comfort of our arm chairs, he made a decision right or wrong, that's what PIC's do.
I hope a lot of youngsters & low experienced drivers are learning stuff here & if it saves just one life (which we will never know) then all this might just be worth it!
Wmk2
The pilot obviously didn't know how long a clearance would take to obtain & considering that he was now loaded up with lots of challenges he didn't have the luxury of chatting over it here like we are in the comfort of our arm chairs, he made a decision right or wrong, that's what PIC's do.
I hope a lot of youngsters & low experienced drivers are learning stuff here & if it saves just one life (which we will never know) then all this might just be worth it!
Wmk2
Thread Starter
Even today the flight planning requirements first page says you can't file Coffs - Willy when Willy is active.
And the reason I talk about present day requirements is that my interest is in preventing present day accidents!
And the reason I talk about present day requirements is that my interest is in preventing present day accidents!
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Procedures are different.
Area is now provided with a radar service.
ATS inter-unit Comms are more streamlined, and VHF better.
So, if this happened in 2014 what would change?
Even assuming clearance was denied and a poor command choice was made, SSR coverage in the area would have provided the pilot with safe navigation advice if required, and in the event of a crash following pilot incapacitation etc, a better SAR response.
The civil system has overcome the failings that let down MDX. I would suggest thousands of pilots have been denied a clearance through Willi over the years. How many have died?
Last edited by Hempy; 1st Jun 2014 at 12:02.
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VH-MDX
Blaming the RAAF for the tragic accident is clearly drawing a very long bow.
From what I have read and listened to, the RAAF did not deny access to the airspace, just asked the PIC to hold OCTA while they sorted it out.
Now, there is nothing inherently dangerous in that instruction and any pilot should expect such a response if they are OCTA and requesting a change in flight plan to enter controlled airspace, military or otherwise. It is simply normal procedure under these circumstances.
The holding requirement may be a minor contributing factor, but the requirement was not unexpected or unsafe.
The PIC decided to immediately continue into storms, IMC (was he operating night VMC or IFR?), at night, over hostile terrain and with no horizon, in a single engine aircraft, rather than
a. hold in VMC, or
b. return to Coffs, or
c. declare an emergency.
I agree with another contributor that said it was caused by poor decision making and risk management on behalf of the PIC.
It was compounded by the failure of the instruments. Either the aircraft instruments were not airworthy (hardly the fault of the RAAF) or they were working and the pilot was disoriented and did not believe what he was seeing.
Poor decision making by the PIC and (potentially) unserviceable equipment, essential for night flying, caused this accident. There were numerous contributing factors, of which flight into controlled airspace was but one.
From what I have read and listened to, the RAAF did not deny access to the airspace, just asked the PIC to hold OCTA while they sorted it out.
Now, there is nothing inherently dangerous in that instruction and any pilot should expect such a response if they are OCTA and requesting a change in flight plan to enter controlled airspace, military or otherwise. It is simply normal procedure under these circumstances.
The holding requirement may be a minor contributing factor, but the requirement was not unexpected or unsafe.
The PIC decided to immediately continue into storms, IMC (was he operating night VMC or IFR?), at night, over hostile terrain and with no horizon, in a single engine aircraft, rather than
a. hold in VMC, or
b. return to Coffs, or
c. declare an emergency.
I agree with another contributor that said it was caused by poor decision making and risk management on behalf of the PIC.
It was compounded by the failure of the instruments. Either the aircraft instruments were not airworthy (hardly the fault of the RAAF) or they were working and the pilot was disoriented and did not believe what he was seeing.
Poor decision making by the PIC and (potentially) unserviceable equipment, essential for night flying, caused this accident. There were numerous contributing factors, of which flight into controlled airspace was but one.