Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dick,
I believe the change to TWR hours ie opening on weekends occurred a few years back due to a few close calls between VFR aircraft and the RPT jets whilst it was a CTAF.
I believe the change to TWR hours ie opening on weekends occurred a few years back due to a few close calls between VFR aircraft and the RPT jets whilst it was a CTAF.
Thread Starter
No. It wasn't that at all
It was after a campaign by someone I know that pointed out they closed the tower for the Christmas holidays. This was the busiest time for RPT movements.
500n. Yes I know that. My post was referring to the times when they have no military operations
It was after a campaign by someone I know that pointed out they closed the tower for the Christmas holidays. This was the busiest time for RPT movements.
500n. Yes I know that. My post was referring to the times when they have no military operations
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sale
Age: 64
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
23 Pages
Hi Guys,
First time poster on PPruNe and I have read the whole 23 Pages of this discussion with maximum interest. Apart from a little name calling, the discussion appears to center around the two topics:
1. Requesting Dick Smith apologise for stating that the RAAF sent five men to their deaths and;
2. Lifting the restrictions on WLM airspace.
Having read the transcripts and being fairly conversant with the details of VH-MDX I believe Mr Smith may be just a little bit out of line with his statement and no matter what he is trying to achieve, no matter what his motives or justification, I believe that he should apologise as the facts do not support his statement.
Not sure what lifting the planning restrictions on WLM airspace would achieve, as no matter what you have planned, you may still be instructed to hold or be given an alternate route due military requirements (range activations etc) and/or traffic.
Pity there is very limited input by people of what happened to MDX and where they think it is as that was supposed to be the main thrust of the program that started this thread. I for one am fascinated that it hasn't been found after all these years.
First time poster on PPruNe and I have read the whole 23 Pages of this discussion with maximum interest. Apart from a little name calling, the discussion appears to center around the two topics:
1. Requesting Dick Smith apologise for stating that the RAAF sent five men to their deaths and;
2. Lifting the restrictions on WLM airspace.
Having read the transcripts and being fairly conversant with the details of VH-MDX I believe Mr Smith may be just a little bit out of line with his statement and no matter what he is trying to achieve, no matter what his motives or justification, I believe that he should apologise as the facts do not support his statement.
Not sure what lifting the planning restrictions on WLM airspace would achieve, as no matter what you have planned, you may still be instructed to hold or be given an alternate route due military requirements (range activations etc) and/or traffic.
Pity there is very limited input by people of what happened to MDX and where they think it is as that was supposed to be the main thrust of the program that started this thread. I for one am fascinated that it hasn't been found after all these years.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Short memory
Dick:
"I have found when they man the tower for a few RPT flights- say on a weekend when the fighters are not flying - they also activate a number of restricted areas."
It isn't only the fighters in Willytown that use that airspace. It could be anything from UATs, Wedgetail using the airspace prior to departing land somewhere other than Williamtown, to visiting military even carrier based aircraft. So the associated restricted airspace can be active even though the tower is not active.
Your interests might be better served to concentrate on the Williamtown coastal route rather than questioning every bit of military airspace. You don't know because you don't need to.
"I have found when they man the tower for a few RPT flights- say on a weekend when the fighters are not flying - they also activate a number of restricted areas."
It isn't only the fighters in Willytown that use that airspace. It could be anything from UATs, Wedgetail using the airspace prior to departing land somewhere other than Williamtown, to visiting military even carrier based aircraft. So the associated restricted airspace can be active even though the tower is not active.
Your interests might be better served to concentrate on the Williamtown coastal route rather than questioning every bit of military airspace. You don't know because you don't need to.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 'Stralia!
Age: 47
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DICK SMITH, PLEASE ANSWER THIS POST.
Dick,
If your issue with Williamtown is so near to you, why have you not been in the public eye, on the news/current affair/whatever complaining about it before now?
Why have you taken the focus of trying to actually find the missing aircraft and tried to make it one of an airspace classification and usage.
You were asked long before this came to the media if you have anything to contribute and you said no.
You have hijacked this issue, both here, in the media and they eyes of the public, to push your own, very tenuously linked, agenda, and removed the best chance in about 30 years of us raising the profile of it to where we could maybe bring about a successful conclusion to this story. You have made it, not about the fact that the plane still hasn't been found, but about you and your misguided war on the RAAF.
Why did you feel the need to take away an opportunity for people to think, "that's a shame they haven't found it, what can we do to change it" to one of "that's a shame that someone that is supposed to be an experienced aviation professional accused the a government organisation of killing 5 people, we should concentrate on Williamtowns very peripheral role".
Dick, please, when answering this, don't bang on about how you are going to change the system, or give me the story of how you offered to do this and that, just answer what I wrote.
Dick,
If your issue with Williamtown is so near to you, why have you not been in the public eye, on the news/current affair/whatever complaining about it before now?
Why have you taken the focus of trying to actually find the missing aircraft and tried to make it one of an airspace classification and usage.
You were asked long before this came to the media if you have anything to contribute and you said no.
You have hijacked this issue, both here, in the media and they eyes of the public, to push your own, very tenuously linked, agenda, and removed the best chance in about 30 years of us raising the profile of it to where we could maybe bring about a successful conclusion to this story. You have made it, not about the fact that the plane still hasn't been found, but about you and your misguided war on the RAAF.
Why did you feel the need to take away an opportunity for people to think, "that's a shame they haven't found it, what can we do to change it" to one of "that's a shame that someone that is supposed to be an experienced aviation professional accused the a government organisation of killing 5 people, we should concentrate on Williamtowns very peripheral role".
Dick, please, when answering this, don't bang on about how you are going to change the system, or give me the story of how you offered to do this and that, just answer what I wrote.
Thread Starter
RatsorA
I have done no such thing.
I will say it again. My interest is in not seeing a repeat of this type of accident
While civilian pilots in Australian are encouraged - if not forced- to plan their flights past Williamtown in the least safe way I will keep on the pressure for change.
I have been contacted by relatives of the deceased and it's clear that while they would like the aircraft located - they also would not like to see this type of accident repeated - that is safety improvements were not made and in effect lives were lost for nothing.
It's interesting , I have not doubted that your prime motivation is to find the crash site so the relatives can have some form of closure and also give a proper burial for the deceased however you don't accept that I could have a genuine interest in making our skies safer.
In fact this is what I have been on about since I wrote "Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom " 30 years ago.
It is likely we will have more un necessary accidents in the Williamtown area if we don't allow our ATC's to have the most modern procedures and airspace classifications.
I have not hijacked anything. I have just acted in a way that will draw publicity to an outrageous restriction that can only reduce safety.
I have done no such thing.
I will say it again. My interest is in not seeing a repeat of this type of accident
While civilian pilots in Australian are encouraged - if not forced- to plan their flights past Williamtown in the least safe way I will keep on the pressure for change.
I have been contacted by relatives of the deceased and it's clear that while they would like the aircraft located - they also would not like to see this type of accident repeated - that is safety improvements were not made and in effect lives were lost for nothing.
It's interesting , I have not doubted that your prime motivation is to find the crash site so the relatives can have some form of closure and also give a proper burial for the deceased however you don't accept that I could have a genuine interest in making our skies safer.
In fact this is what I have been on about since I wrote "Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom " 30 years ago.
It is likely we will have more un necessary accidents in the Williamtown area if we don't allow our ATC's to have the most modern procedures and airspace classifications.
I have not hijacked anything. I have just acted in a way that will draw publicity to an outrageous restriction that can only reduce safety.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 7th Jun 2014 at 13:00.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
06AP
He won't, just like yr right and a few others, ask a sensible straight question and albeit a challenging one, they duck weave and divert. Divert being an appropriate word here.
Cheers
He won't, just like yr right and a few others, ask a sensible straight question and albeit a challenging one, they duck weave and divert. Divert being an appropriate word here.
Cheers
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh Jaba Jaba Jaba. I don't duck or anything. I said from the start I won't answer a question that was irrelevant that at be used against me. If anything you didn't answer a lot of questions I ask you.
If you don't won't a safer sky say so.
Cheers.
If you don't won't a safer sky say so.
Cheers.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
You really sure about that? Line em up. If there is a number (we don't want divide by zero errors) the ratio will be rather high and not in your favour.
A safer sky has nothing to do with your and Dicks refusal to answer direct honest questions. Until you demonstrate a consistent change in your (& Dicks) behaviour nobody here will have reason to think otherwise.
Ever wondered why some here seem to come in for more stick than others? You and Dick must really enjoy it.
Sorry, I forgot, you can't be taught anything .....carry on just forget I posted anything.
A safer sky has nothing to do with your and Dicks refusal to answer direct honest questions. Until you demonstrate a consistent change in your (& Dicks) behaviour nobody here will have reason to think otherwise.
Ever wondered why some here seem to come in for more stick than others? You and Dick must really enjoy it.
Sorry, I forgot, you can't be taught anything .....carry on just forget I posted anything.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just because my view ( dick can have his own say ) dosnt mean I'm right or I'm wrong. You have a beef against me for what I've said about lop. You could not bring any point against what I said or some others. Funny thing was I never said any personal attacks against your self. How ever your friends and you never seam to stop attracting me. So here are some facts. I am dyslexic it's no put on. I had to work a fu$k load harder to pass the god in excessive of 20 odd exams. I tried to pass every exam 1st go every time and nearly did.
I was in A for maths and G for English. That's highest and the lowest. Now because I can't use letters and words as we'll as some of you can I have a gift in other areas that make up for that.
I smashed a casa solictor in a court. When I said smashed they had to wipe him and the awis out with a hose.
I made a casa solictor many years ago look like a fool and conadict himself in front of over a hundered or so industry people.
So because I can't use words in a written way as good as a lot of people on these post what I can't have a say.
Sure I wish I could do better. But I try my best. It seams ok to me. But look up what I have and many people have. Better you say to Kerry paker or Richard Branson what you said to me.
How ever I don't really care. I live with it and deal with it. And creamy I don't care or won't to hear what you won't to say ethier get over it.
Facts are I've been around aviation probably a whole lot longer than yourself. I've tried all types of aviation work from small to large. I get on average at least one job offer a week. They ask me not me go to them.
So cheers Jaba
I was in A for maths and G for English. That's highest and the lowest. Now because I can't use letters and words as we'll as some of you can I have a gift in other areas that make up for that.
I smashed a casa solictor in a court. When I said smashed they had to wipe him and the awis out with a hose.
I made a casa solictor many years ago look like a fool and conadict himself in front of over a hundered or so industry people.
So because I can't use words in a written way as good as a lot of people on these post what I can't have a say.
Sure I wish I could do better. But I try my best. It seams ok to me. But look up what I have and many people have. Better you say to Kerry paker or Richard Branson what you said to me.
How ever I don't really care. I live with it and deal with it. And creamy I don't care or won't to hear what you won't to say ethier get over it.
Facts are I've been around aviation probably a whole lot longer than yourself. I've tried all types of aviation work from small to large. I get on average at least one job offer a week. They ask me not me go to them.
So cheers Jaba
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I have been contacted by relatives of the deceased and it's clear that while they would like the aircraft located - they also would not like to see this type of accident repeated - that is safety improvements were not made and in effect lives were lost for nothing."
If that was the case, the all the coroners findings and suggestions re safety improvements in a range of accidents wold be implemented.
Flying spike summed up what I posted earlier
"Your interests might be better served to concentrate on the Williamtown coastal route rather than questioning every bit of military airspace. You don't know because you don't need to."
If that was the case, the all the coroners findings and suggestions re safety improvements in a range of accidents wold be implemented.
Flying spike summed up what I posted earlier
"Your interests might be better served to concentrate on the Williamtown coastal route rather than questioning every bit of military airspace. You don't know because you don't need to."
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know these personal attacks are really low on dick on this matter. Who else has stepped up to the plate. As usual no one. Then he dose. Then you say self interest. Wtf. What is dick the only one that flys. God get over it.
As usual in aust it's easier to knock the tall poppy over but no ones done anything else to bring this matter up.
And one can only hope the find it and aleast have some closure for the poor family's involved.
As usual in aust it's easier to knock the tall poppy over but no ones done anything else to bring this matter up.
And one can only hope the find it and aleast have some closure for the poor family's involved.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 'Stralia!
Age: 47
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dick,
Ok, do you intend to take up as vigorous campaign against all the other casual factors? Factors which played a much larger part in what caused the accident?
Will you be pushing for the replacement of all vacuum pumps in GA aircraft, with more modern and safer technology, and removing the barriers that make such a replacement difficult and costly (engineering orders)?
Until you said "the RAAF sent these men to their deaths" the focus was on what could be done to find it. Now, since you said such a statement, the focus has been pretty much on laying blame for the accident, at the feet of anyone other than the PIC. You clearly state that your opinion was that the RAAF killed 5 men.
If people that say they are experienced aviation professionals can't understand that wasn't the case, what hope do you give the general public?
I will say it again. My interest is in not seeing a repeat of this type of accident
Will you be pushing for the replacement of all vacuum pumps in GA aircraft, with more modern and safer technology, and removing the barriers that make such a replacement difficult and costly (engineering orders)?
Until you said "the RAAF sent these men to their deaths" the focus was on what could be done to find it. Now, since you said such a statement, the focus has been pretty much on laying blame for the accident, at the feet of anyone other than the PIC. You clearly state that your opinion was that the RAAF killed 5 men.
If people that say they are experienced aviation professionals can't understand that wasn't the case, what hope do you give the general public?
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who owns the airspace?
If people feel that the military has excessive restricted airspace, the responsible agency for airspace allocation is not the military but is the CASA Office of Airspace Regulation. See Civil Aviation Safety Authority - About the OAR.
Specifically the Commonwealth Airspace Regulations 2007 at Airspace Regulations 2007 Section 6 states:
6 Designation of prohibited, restricted or danger areas
(1) CASA may, in writing, make a declaration designating an area of Australian territory to be a prohibited area, a restricted area or a danger area.
(2) CASA must not declare an area to be a prohibited area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary for reasons of military necessity to prohibit the flight of aircraft over the area.
(3) CASA must not declare an area to be a restricted area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary to restrict the flight of aircraft over the area to aircraft flown in accordance with specified conditions in the interests of any of the following:
(a) public safety, including the safety of aircraft in flight;
(b) the protection of the environment;
(c) security.
So, if you're trying to reduce the amount of military restricted airspace, I'd suggest you talk to the agency that actually allocates the airspace via the consultation process which is described on the CASA website Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Consultation rather than via a current affairs show which is simply looking for controversial angle from a positive news story about the search for Australia's last unsolved air crash.
Specifically the Commonwealth Airspace Regulations 2007 at Airspace Regulations 2007 Section 6 states:
6 Designation of prohibited, restricted or danger areas
(1) CASA may, in writing, make a declaration designating an area of Australian territory to be a prohibited area, a restricted area or a danger area.
(2) CASA must not declare an area to be a prohibited area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary for reasons of military necessity to prohibit the flight of aircraft over the area.
(3) CASA must not declare an area to be a restricted area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary to restrict the flight of aircraft over the area to aircraft flown in accordance with specified conditions in the interests of any of the following:
(a) public safety, including the safety of aircraft in flight;
(b) the protection of the environment;
(c) security.
So, if you're trying to reduce the amount of military restricted airspace, I'd suggest you talk to the agency that actually allocates the airspace via the consultation process which is described on the CASA website Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Consultation rather than via a current affairs show which is simply looking for controversial angle from a positive news story about the search for Australia's last unsolved air crash.
Sorry Dick that you have to put up with these question asking folk that just don't get it.
Funny how none of them will answer the simple question:
Why do we need to be uniquely different from say the USA? Why are our boys so precious? Why does OH&S laws make the painting of the Harbour Bridge an impossibility? (Today's news)
WHY ARE AUSTRALIANS SO PRECIOUS?
Funny how none of them will answer the simple question:
Why do we need to be uniquely different from say the USA? Why are our boys so precious? Why does OH&S laws make the painting of the Harbour Bridge an impossibility? (Today's news)
WHY ARE AUSTRALIANS SO PRECIOUS?
Thread Starter
RatsorEA
Accidents often happen when the holes in the cheese line up.
In this particular case there is one hole that should be able to be removed without large cost . That is the prohibition for non pressurized aircraft on flight planning the safest way past Williamtown.
Renewed publicity on the accident gives a chance for this issue to be looked at and if those in charge do not act and there is a repeat accident it will be very much clearer on where accountability should lay.. That's how it should be.
The human failings side of this accident are important but very much harder for me to have an influence on.
Accidents often happen when the holes in the cheese line up.
In this particular case there is one hole that should be able to be removed without large cost . That is the prohibition for non pressurized aircraft on flight planning the safest way past Williamtown.
Renewed publicity on the accident gives a chance for this issue to be looked at and if those in charge do not act and there is a repeat accident it will be very much clearer on where accountability should lay.. That's how it should be.
The human failings side of this accident are important but very much harder for me to have an influence on.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lemore Airspace
What about Lemoore Naval Air Station in the USA . I am told Leemore is home to the US Navy's entire West Coast fighter/attack capability with approximately 175 active FAA-18 Hornets and FAA 18E Super Hornets.It is class D airspace 4.3 nm radius to 2700 ' with visual exempt class E above to 18,000'.
I don't think so, you just destroyed your own argument with visual exempt class E above to 18,000 he was NVFR, last time I looked the V stands for visual
How absurd a reference can you get to now?
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whose airspace is it anyway?
For those people criticising the RAAF for "locking up huge sections of airspace", the responsible agency for allocating airspace in Australia is not the military but is the CASA Office of Airspace Regulation. See Civil Aviation Safety Authority - About the OAR. The relevant section in the Commonwealth Airspace Regulations 2007 (Airspace Regulations 2007) is Section 6 which states:
6 Designation of prohibited, restricted or danger areas
(1) CASA may, in writing, make a declaration designating an area of Australian territory to be a prohibited area, a restricted area or a danger area.
(2) CASA must not declare an area to be a prohibited area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary for reasons of military necessity to prohibit the flight of aircraft over the area.
(3) CASA must not declare an area to be a restricted area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary to restrict the flight of aircraft over the area to aircraft flown in accordance with specified conditions in the interests of any of the following:
(a) public safety, including the safety of aircraft in flight;
(b) the protection of the environment;
(c) security.
So, for anybody trying to reduce the amount of RAAF restricted airspace, there is a consultation process described on CASA's website Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Consultation rather than creating controversy in a TV program that should have been a positive story about finding the wreckage from Australia's only unsolved air crash.
6 Designation of prohibited, restricted or danger areas
(1) CASA may, in writing, make a declaration designating an area of Australian territory to be a prohibited area, a restricted area or a danger area.
(2) CASA must not declare an area to be a prohibited area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary for reasons of military necessity to prohibit the flight of aircraft over the area.
(3) CASA must not declare an area to be a restricted area unless, in the opinion of CASA, it is necessary to restrict the flight of aircraft over the area to aircraft flown in accordance with specified conditions in the interests of any of the following:
(a) public safety, including the safety of aircraft in flight;
(b) the protection of the environment;
(c) security.
So, for anybody trying to reduce the amount of RAAF restricted airspace, there is a consultation process described on CASA's website Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Consultation rather than creating controversy in a TV program that should have been a positive story about finding the wreckage from Australia's only unsolved air crash.