CPL in an RA-Aus aircraft
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CPL in an RA-Aus aircraft
Guys/Girls, I'm going to write to CASA to try to convince them that one should be able to get their CPL in an RA-Aus aircraft.
Where would I start and who should I write to specifically?
Where would I start and who should I write to specifically?
Why not?
You'll get CASA approval for controlled airspace then too. How about the night hours requirement?
..yeah hell yeah why not?
Ultralights are as good as GA aircraft, no problem.
And the instructors - minimum requirement is a PPL exam pass (not even a PPL)... Yep having PPLs training Commercial Pilots, no problem.
Enthusiastic amatuers turning the Australian aviation industry into the biggest aero club in the world
You'll get CASA approval for controlled airspace then too. How about the night hours requirement?
..yeah hell yeah why not?
Ultralights are as good as GA aircraft, no problem.
And the instructors - minimum requirement is a PPL exam pass (not even a PPL)... Yep having PPLs training Commercial Pilots, no problem.
Enthusiastic amatuers turning the Australian aviation industry into the biggest aero club in the world
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Haven't we been over this issue many times already. The whole idea of AUF/RA-Aus, or whatever it will be called next, was to provide relatively inexpensive and simple recreational flying. It was for those who didn't need or want the complications of controlled airspace or airfields, did not want or need to keep up to date with complex regulations, and wanted to fly relatively simple aircraft types that they could maintain themselves.
Now it seems that there are those who want to simply use RA-Aus as a cheap and less-regulated way to gain qualifications that are well outside the whole reason for RA-Aus in the first place.
Surely there needs to be some line between Recreational and Commercial. You can't have it both ways. Yes, use some hours on RA-Aus aircraft towoards the 200hr option for CPL, but the 150hr pathway is intended for those who undertake a structured training program to CPL - ie to fly commercially. How is an entire administrative system, designed around recreational objectives, for recreational flyers and aircraft, compatible with training commercial pilots? Surely the regulatory, governance and management structures that RA-Aus would need to have in place to conduct CPL training would increase the overheads to members to the stage that the whole reason for having RA-Aus would be negated.
Cheers,
ausdoc
Now it seems that there are those who want to simply use RA-Aus as a cheap and less-regulated way to gain qualifications that are well outside the whole reason for RA-Aus in the first place.
Surely there needs to be some line between Recreational and Commercial. You can't have it both ways. Yes, use some hours on RA-Aus aircraft towoards the 200hr option for CPL, but the 150hr pathway is intended for those who undertake a structured training program to CPL - ie to fly commercially. How is an entire administrative system, designed around recreational objectives, for recreational flyers and aircraft, compatible with training commercial pilots? Surely the regulatory, governance and management structures that RA-Aus would need to have in place to conduct CPL training would increase the overheads to members to the stage that the whole reason for having RA-Aus would be negated.
Cheers,
ausdoc
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I think you might be missing the point, i think he is trying to say, that a CPL student still complete all the CPL syllabus as required by CASA, exams etc, but flight training carried out in a Raaus Registered aircraft capable of speeds over 115(120) Kts such a Jabiru 230. using a qualified grade 3 or required CPL instructor, so instead of jumping into a 182 for your CPL, you get into a J23 instead, everything else remains the same.
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relatively inexpensive and simple recreational flying. It was for those who didn't need or want the complications of controlled airspace or airfields, did not want or need to keep up to date with complex regulations, and wanted to fly relatively simple aircraft types
Irrespective of what objections there may be from the "usual suspects" bent up in their "elitist cocoons" of self indulgence, it was them that started the whole evolutionary process by insisting hang gliders, ultralights, sport rotorcraft, parachutists, balloons, base jumpers, gliders, and ornithopters be equipped with expensive surveillance ADSB simply because these "menaces to society" may be in the same airspace as them on any given time of the day or year, and even worse, at an altitude that they may want to descend or climb through over the 7.5 million square kilometers of Australian landscape x cubed.
They obviously "expect" recreational aircraft to be there.
With NO organisation capable of looking after the interests of the private recreational above 544kg privately owned GA fleet there is a possibility that these "recreational" aircraft may one day be at one with the only representative body that can look after their interests.
There are heaps of "PILOT" organisations, some even publish magazines, but only one with the capacity and legal capability to look after private recreational aviation "OWNERS" whether they fly a VFR C210 or a Drifter.
Yes Ian, it will happen, but whether in our lifetime I'm unsure. There are too many "traditional" agenda driven obstacles to overcome.
Isn't the aircraft requirement for CPL test: >120 KTAS + CSU ? This lower than in the near past where it was >120 + CSU + R/G... and probably should have remained.
A J-230 fails to qualify even on the current, (and lowered), level of complexity.
The allowance of 100hrs RAAus towards the 200hr CPL seems rather generous - where do we stop?
happy days,
A J-230 fails to qualify even on the current, (and lowered), level of complexity.
The allowance of 100hrs RAAus towards the 200hr CPL seems rather generous - where do we stop?
happy days,
There's a thing called the Dova Skylark (or somesuch) which is capable of RA registry, is retractable, does 120 knots and could be fitted with a constant speed prop.
BUT, if it is registered RA it can't fly at night or IMC, so how could all the elements of the CPL flying syllabus be ticked off? Attempting to do the entire CPL in such light, low inertia aircraft does not prepare one adequately for that first commercial job where you could be hauling tourists around in a C210. Go for something with a bit of weight, a bit of grunt and a modicum of complexity and just suck up the extra costs.
I would NEVER employ a pilot who had not at least flown a reasonable number of hours in an aeroplane approaching the power, complexity and weight of whatever I had in the fleet. In the same way I would NEVER employ a pilot who took the 'softcock' option of getting a CPL or ATPL in some more lenient country to circumvent the CASA standards. Which are already about as low as they need to go. RA is great for those who want to play with their toys and enjoy a minimum of regulatory interference, but the culture is not right for budding CPLs.
Bring back taildraggers, and 3 hour written nav papers with Mercator sailings, and Morse code, and the VAR. GPS navigation indeed....pussies, all pussies. There was a time when the CPL/ATPL was made deliberately difficult to discourage the weak, meek and inept. Charles Darwin, where are you? Harumph. Rant over.
BUT, if it is registered RA it can't fly at night or IMC, so how could all the elements of the CPL flying syllabus be ticked off? Attempting to do the entire CPL in such light, low inertia aircraft does not prepare one adequately for that first commercial job where you could be hauling tourists around in a C210. Go for something with a bit of weight, a bit of grunt and a modicum of complexity and just suck up the extra costs.
I would NEVER employ a pilot who had not at least flown a reasonable number of hours in an aeroplane approaching the power, complexity and weight of whatever I had in the fleet. In the same way I would NEVER employ a pilot who took the 'softcock' option of getting a CPL or ATPL in some more lenient country to circumvent the CASA standards. Which are already about as low as they need to go. RA is great for those who want to play with their toys and enjoy a minimum of regulatory interference, but the culture is not right for budding CPLs.
Bring back taildraggers, and 3 hour written nav papers with Mercator sailings, and Morse code, and the VAR. GPS navigation indeed....pussies, all pussies. There was a time when the CPL/ATPL was made deliberately difficult to discourage the weak, meek and inept. Charles Darwin, where are you? Harumph. Rant over.
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Hey everyone,
I was referred to this link by a friend. I am a 100% RA-Aus qualified pilot, but I must disagree with the original poster. RA-Aus aircraft just aren't the same as GA aircraft, fullstop. The Jabiru is a close specification comparison to something like a C152 or a PA38 - but not the same aeroplane. It's important that RA-Aus pilots AND GA pilots realise that there's no general comparison between the two categories of flying. One is a hobby (RA-Aus) and one (GA) is for a hobby and career if you choose to progress to the next licence (CPL).
I'm 15 years old, I went solo when I was 15 and two days old and 3 months later I got my full 'certificate'. At the moment I have no intention to fly at night, fly in IMC or fly in controlled airspace. When I want to do this, I will get a PPL. It's important that people know that the RA-Aus syllabus has evolved greatly since the pre-AUF and AUF days. The syllabus is pretty much the same as the GA PPL Day VFR syllabus & there are advantages to GA training and there are advantages to RA-Aus training. I don't understand why the two categories have this feud with each other, it's aviation, it's all flying, it's something we should ALL be very greatful to have. I know I am.
I'm not biased.
Thanks,
Andrew
I was referred to this link by a friend. I am a 100% RA-Aus qualified pilot, but I must disagree with the original poster. RA-Aus aircraft just aren't the same as GA aircraft, fullstop. The Jabiru is a close specification comparison to something like a C152 or a PA38 - but not the same aeroplane. It's important that RA-Aus pilots AND GA pilots realise that there's no general comparison between the two categories of flying. One is a hobby (RA-Aus) and one (GA) is for a hobby and career if you choose to progress to the next licence (CPL).
I'm 15 years old, I went solo when I was 15 and two days old and 3 months later I got my full 'certificate'. At the moment I have no intention to fly at night, fly in IMC or fly in controlled airspace. When I want to do this, I will get a PPL. It's important that people know that the RA-Aus syllabus has evolved greatly since the pre-AUF and AUF days. The syllabus is pretty much the same as the GA PPL Day VFR syllabus & there are advantages to GA training and there are advantages to RA-Aus training. I don't understand why the two categories have this feud with each other, it's aviation, it's all flying, it's something we should ALL be very greatful to have. I know I am.
I'm not biased.
Thanks,
Andrew
The CPL training is there to give you qualifications and experience necessary to safely operate a commercial aircraft. cannot imagine an operator letting a new CPL loose in a C206 or a C210 with no experience on anything heavier than half a tonne.
Why don't you ask for a dispo on 50% of your instrument rating training because you have Flight Sim 2004 on your laptop??
Why don't you ask for a dispo on 50% of your instrument rating training because you have Flight Sim 2004 on your laptop??
Ultralights are as good as GA aircraft, no problem.
RA-Aus aircraft just aren't the same as GA aircraft, fullstop.
There is a great deal of fear in the GA community over the RA movement i.e membership booming, and more airspace being taken up with RA aircraft(their all out to kill us etc), and I think that many GA pilots have an image of 10 years ago when RA's poor safety record and terrible training standards were the norm.Its just not the case these days,although there is still a long way to go in some "schools", but just go research the number of members over the last ten years vs the number of fatalities and serious accidents over the same period to see the truth.
The vitriol that the uneducated portion of GA pilots show towards their RA counterparts is laughable..It will only get more humorous the more that RA takes the market share of Ab-initio training away from the overpriced sausage factories.If you want pleasant, financially pleasing recreational flying in modern aircraft with minimal red tape then RA will be your thing, but just like GA I would research my pick of schools well..
As for the topic at hand..I am an RA member(with a GA CPL) who doesn't want all the ratings and endo's to be available to RA because I think in the end more than anything else it will take away the Recreational element to that kind of flying and will end up with the huge problems that face anyone wanting to fly for fun in the GA world.GA is just not set up at all well for non professional flying unless you are loaded and have a high threshold for bullsh1t of the CASA variety...
It is really good to be able to do a portion of your CPL time in RA aircraft..There is nothing wrong with it at all as long as you are working to the GA Syllabus.But a portion is more than enough as an RA only CPL syllabus wouldn't give the full experience needed with planes of a higher weight and inertia among other things.
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Homesick,
I don't think there is a lot of anti-RAAus vitriol here... but as you say yourself, it's fundamentally different.
The enthusiasm of people like Ian comes, almost without exception, from people with zero understanding of Commercial Pilot Licence standards.
I used to drink at an aero club but I left because I was sick of all the RAAus pilots telling me what I was doing wrong when I was working. They have an RAAus licence (as do I, as well as my CPL and MECIR) and on that basis they seemed to believe they were qualified to criticise my work - criticising me for flying in cloud, for example
It is tantamount to a Boy Scout holding a 1st Aid badge watching a paramedic or a doctor and criticising their work. It springs from ignorance and arrogance.
When we point out that there are higher standards and greater requirements in CPL training than can be achieved in an RAAus machine, we get the Frank Arouets of the world accusing us of "eliteism"
Commercial Pilots are trained to the standards of a professional, able to handle a far wider range of variables and conditions than a PPL or a RAAus pilot. THAT is because they are charged with transporting the general public.
I'm not a doctor, but I hold a Workplace First Aid certificate... would you let me operate on a member of your family?
I'm not a licenced financial advisor but I have had a bank account since I was 7 - that's over 30 years experience! I MUST know what I'm doing with money! Would you like me to handle your Superannuation?
No of course not. But while you would defend your money with your life, you are willing to lower the standards for the training of professional pilots... even further... yet again... and put your family in an aircraft with them?
...just to feed your schoolboy fantasy that you really are just as good as a Commercial Pilot, even though you only have a Pilot Cert?
Man I just don't get it.
I don't think there is a lot of anti-RAAus vitriol here... but as you say yourself, it's fundamentally different.
The enthusiasm of people like Ian comes, almost without exception, from people with zero understanding of Commercial Pilot Licence standards.
I used to drink at an aero club but I left because I was sick of all the RAAus pilots telling me what I was doing wrong when I was working. They have an RAAus licence (as do I, as well as my CPL and MECIR) and on that basis they seemed to believe they were qualified to criticise my work - criticising me for flying in cloud, for example
It is tantamount to a Boy Scout holding a 1st Aid badge watching a paramedic or a doctor and criticising their work. It springs from ignorance and arrogance.
When we point out that there are higher standards and greater requirements in CPL training than can be achieved in an RAAus machine, we get the Frank Arouets of the world accusing us of "eliteism"
Commercial Pilots are trained to the standards of a professional, able to handle a far wider range of variables and conditions than a PPL or a RAAus pilot. THAT is because they are charged with transporting the general public.
I'm not a doctor, but I hold a Workplace First Aid certificate... would you let me operate on a member of your family?
I'm not a licenced financial advisor but I have had a bank account since I was 7 - that's over 30 years experience! I MUST know what I'm doing with money! Would you like me to handle your Superannuation?
No of course not. But while you would defend your money with your life, you are willing to lower the standards for the training of professional pilots... even further... yet again... and put your family in an aircraft with them?
...just to feed your schoolboy fantasy that you really are just as good as a Commercial Pilot, even though you only have a Pilot Cert?
Man I just don't get it.
Last edited by Snatch; 5th Aug 2010 at 13:23.
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In my eyes the most appropriate way to get your CPL from an RA-Aus background is to convert to a PPL and work from there. The RA-Aus pilot certificate with passenger and cross country endorsement is very similar to a PPL. But you will have to get used to the aircraft, complete 2 hours instrument flying, demonstrate your ability to fly navs, handle controlled airspace etc... Then you can work towards your CPL once you've gained your PPL.
I haven't really heard of a percentage conversion, i.e 1 RA-Aus hour is worth 50% of a GA hour (example!!). By the time a person has achieved the certificate with all endorsements to convert they would have a very minimum of 40 hours, which in reality if taught properly is not possible. I have my certificate with no additional endorsements and I have 35 hours. (Basically in GA terms it's less than a GFPT)
-Andrew
I haven't really heard of a percentage conversion, i.e 1 RA-Aus hour is worth 50% of a GA hour (example!!). By the time a person has achieved the certificate with all endorsements to convert they would have a very minimum of 40 hours, which in reality if taught properly is not possible. I have my certificate with no additional endorsements and I have 35 hours. (Basically in GA terms it's less than a GFPT)
-Andrew
Good post snatch.
Sounds like you found a right wank3r to talk to at the Aero club...Im suprised you found a know it all drinking at an Aero club
.
I guess the thing that really gets my goat about some of the comments made about RA is they paint All of it with the one brush and it often tends to be with either subtle put downs or flat out false statements.Its just not possible to do that with any accuracy just as we couldn't sit here and say that "every pilot under 25 studying for a CPL in Moorabbin thinks he is cooler than Maverick from Top Gun when in reality the aviators just look stupid"..
Or could we.
I think this is the last time that I bite to this RA/GA crap because in reality I dont care that much.Its more the principle of the thing . Continually seeing and hearing false, broad statements that have no merit gets up my nose and annoys me no matter what the topic is. That's why I pay no attention to elections.
Sounds like you found a right wank3r to talk to at the Aero club...Im suprised you found a know it all drinking at an Aero club
.I guess the thing that really gets my goat about some of the comments made about RA is they paint All of it with the one brush and it often tends to be with either subtle put downs or flat out false statements.Its just not possible to do that with any accuracy just as we couldn't sit here and say that "every pilot under 25 studying for a CPL in Moorabbin thinks he is cooler than Maverick from Top Gun when in reality the aviators just look stupid"..
Or could we
.I think this is the last time that I bite to this RA/GA crap because in reality I dont care that much.Its more the principle of the thing . Continually seeing and hearing false, broad statements that have no merit gets up my nose and annoys me no matter what the topic is. That's why I pay no attention to elections.
Last edited by Homesick-Angel; 5th Aug 2010 at 14:00.