CPL in an RA-Aus aircraft

[superdimona]

Who are you responding to macchi? If it's Baswell, then do you think it makes sense that a Jabiru legally counts for more CPL hours with a VH rego then the exact same aircraft with numbers?

If you're responding to the first post, then keep in mind that the 'Ian Baker' here exists solely as a wind-up account.

[Macchi 408]

I'm responding to the first post (only just caught up with times).

I think that yes, someone needs to have a rethink in regards to A/C such as the Jabiru which can be registered both ways. But when flying under VH- I have only ever seen them in PPL operation, not as an A/C which flying schools use for their CPL training.

[VH-XXX]

The "only 750 RA-Aus hours for ATPL" is a joke. It would make sense if the rule was "only 750 hours in non-complex aircraft", but when you can do 750 hours in an RA-Aus Jabiru, then put the same jab on the VH register and do the other 750, clearly someone hasn't thought this through very well.

If you truly believe that Baswell, then you need to learn a little more about the system under which you (and everyone else) operates.

If you think you can just do 750 hours in an RAA Jabiru and follow up with another 750 in a GA registered one, you're dreaming.

[PyroTek]

If you think you can just do 750 hours in an RAA Jabiru and follow up with another 750 in a GA registered one, you're dreaming.

Why would you bother? Best way to get an ATPL is the cheapest way, AKA, get a job doing charter or something?

[SW3]

At the end of the day to land an airline job you need plenty of hours (preferably plenty of Multi engine IFR), however your first job won't be in a twin! And as far as hours go Raaus hours are just as useful as low performance GA such as C172 time.
Raaus is useful at the beginning of your career for initial hour building for your CPL and ATPL. Get the single hours for your first single engine job, and as many as you can in whatever you can. CASA counts 750 hours Raaus for an ATPL which is fantastic. What is extraordinary is that it is possible to complete all the required hours for an ATOL in a low performance GA type (IE C172/cherokee)! These types are just as far away from what one would be flying with an ATPL as a Jabiru is for example.
In short, single engine hours lead to Multi engine hours which leads to the big time. Single hours will get you a Multi job. Raaus hours will gain you single hours which leads to a single engine job which leads to a Multi engine job.

[drpixie]

Some history at the end of the thread ...

The ATPL started out as the Senior Commercial License and still means just that - commercial ops with a bit more seniority than just-starting-out. It doesn't really have much to do with airline ops.

All the ATPL demonstrates is that you know a little more classroom stuff than the bare minimum, have flown a little under instruments, and have a bit more than minimum hours.

Then all the ATPL gives you is left-seat privileges where 2 pilots are required (there are plenty of CPL FOs out there). And, of course, employers (airlines) like to see that extra seniority and experience.

[VH-XXX]

There seems to be the opinion that you just do 750 hours in a Jabiru and then switch into a GA reg'd Jabiru or 172 and do 750 more and you get a shiny piece of paper with ATPL written on it.

[Horatio Leafblower]

There seems to be the opinion that you just do 750 hours in a Jabiru and then switch into a GA reg'd Jabiru or 172 and do 750 more and you get a shiny piece of paper with ATPL written on it.

...and if you hold a CPL and a CIR and you have the requisite night experience (the sticking point for most people), AND you pass the exams, is there any reason why what you describe above is not correct?

[baswell]

There seems to be the opinion that you just do 750 hours in a Jabiru and then switch into a GA reg'd Jabiru or 172 and do 750 more and you get a shiny piece of paper with ATPL written on it.

Please explain, beyond the theory subjects and required PIC, IFR and night hours, what else do you need?

There are plenty of ATPLs out there who have never flown anything bigger than a light twin; possibly only to gain the CIR part of the MECIR.

[maverick22]

I really fail to see where all this is going.

The requirements for an ATPL (aeroplane) are:

5.172 Aeronautical experience: minimum requirements

(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.

(2) The 750 hours must include:

(a) any of the following:

(i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;

(ii) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision;

(iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the balance as pilot acting in command under supervision; and

(b) at least 200 hours of cross‑country flight time; and

(c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and

(d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in command or as co‑pilot.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (2) (b), the cross‑country flight time must include at least 100 hours as pilot in command or pilot acting in command under supervision.

(4) The balance of the 1,500 hours of flight time must consist of any 1 or more of the following: (a) not more than 750 hours of flight time as pilot of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane;

(b) not more than 750 hours of recognised flight time as pilot of:

(i) a powered aircraft; or

(ii) a glider (other than a hang glider);
(c) not more than 200 hours of flight time as a flight engineer or a flight navigator calculated in accordance with subregulation 5.173 (7) and the balance of the flight time under paragraph (a) or (b).


So yes, you can count up to 750 hrs of 3-axis ultralight time to your ATPL. However, those hours aren't going to be particularly useful to you down the track though.

I agree with SW3, in that some RAAus hours are good to help you get that first job. That's how I got my first instructing job. But if the goal is to move on and get into an airline, then don't persist with accumulating lots of RAAus hours when you could be building them in a VH reg doing something else.

I did have a ball though flying the ultralights

[VH-XXX]

Thanks Mav; clears it up for those that seem to think that you just magically receive the piece of ATPL paper when you reach the 1,500 hour mark.

Why would you bother? Best way to get an ATPL is the cheapest way, AKA, get a job doing charter or something?

Exactly right Pyro.

C172 @ $250 p/h * 750 hours = $187,500
J230 @ $150 p/h * 750 hours = $112,500

= $300,000....

THAT is what I was on about. It's not gonna happen like that without a job flying charter or after 1,500 hours of instructing.

[baswell]

Thanks Mav; clears it up for those that seem to think that you just magically receive the piece of ATPL paper when you reach the 1,500 hour mark.

LOL, it is, just using more words, the same as what Heratio and I have been saying.

Nothing in there requires you fly anything more than a C152, it's just the kind of operations you've done in it. (i.e.: instrument and night time)

But never let the truth get in the way of a good bashing, VH-XXX? Especially when you are wrong and don't want to admit it.

[VH-XXX]

Especially when you are wrong and don't want to admit it.

Which bit am I wrong about?

How many IFR 152's are out there?

Do you TRULY know anyone that has done 750 hours in an RAA Jabiru and then 750 in a Cessna 152 and obtained their ATPL? Anyone? I'm listening...

[SokPuppet]

I do know of someone who's done a few hundred hours in a VH Jabiru and likes to pretend that he's got one.. does that count??

[Horatio Leafblower]

Nothing in there requires you fly anything more than a C152

Actually - technically - if you have to hold a CPL(A) to then get a ATPL, then you will probably need to have a CSU endorsement.

Let's say, a 172 XP

VH-XXX I have seen a few fully IFR C152s. Not very exciting, but the box was ticked on the MR.

Nobody is saying it's ever been done... nobody is saying it's even likely to happen... but it is technically possible. I know couple of PPLs with >3000 hours (and yes, they're RAAus instructors too as it happens)

[SW3]

Yes it is technically possible, but in reality for catching jobs no. An ATPL is a lot of work theory wise and covers jets, this what it's intended for.
Practically it works quite simply.
- Raaus/low performance GA for your first single job. (Most likely C172/C182 etc).
-High performance single (C210 for eg)
-Light Twin
-Turboprop
-Jet

This is not always the exact order if you're lucky and you may even jump a few.
As for Raaus? Single engine hour building. 750 hours counts which is fantastic and a huge help along and so it should count. They are legitimately earned hours. But it's the same case as the C152, no one will give you a job if you completed your ATPL in a C152! Experience and insurance companies rule the world. Also if you jumped from a C152 into a jet (to emphasize a point) you'd never catch up to it. That's what progression is for, to ease you into speed and systems such as pressurization etc.
End of the day, enjoy your career and all the types you will fly.

[baswell]

Do you TRULY know anyone that has done 750 hours in an RAA Jabiru and then 750 in a Cessna 152 and obtained their ATPL

That's irrelevant to this discussion.

The point you and others were making is that of course you can't do the other 750 in RA-Aus because it has to be a "real" aircraft.

[VH-XXX]

Baswell, re-read post # 60 by myself.

The current 750 hours which counts towards the 1500 ATPL is a happy medium that should keep both sides of the fence happy! You can't complain about that no matter where your allegiance lies. It gives a good balance of stick and rudder, along with procedures and paperwork.

My latest comments were aimed at those (including yourself) that made it sound like an "easy" process do just "do 750 hours in a Jab, then other 750 in a GA aircraft" (possibly the same aircraft). I was commenting on the practicality of doing so and that it would not be likely to be as simple as that (GA wise) for a number of reasons. eg, the IFR 152 comment, the cost, not to mention the requirements that Mav has so kindly posted.

Slight mis-understanding there. No RAA bashing today from over here.

I did however state that Qantas and Qantas-Link for starters unfortunately don't count RAA time for their entry requirements and this is an unfortunate reality that might upset the plans of some aspiring pilots.

[SW3]

XXX these days applications are made online and the hours column doesnt ask to differentiate where your hours came from. Besides this Raaus hours go in the same single engine column as GA as it is a Category A 3 axis aeroplane. The only way Raaus hours come up is on an interview when they check log books, and I've never been queried.
Besides this as I've mentioned any single engine hours are in addition to all the Multi engine hours required. These hours are worth gold and are what one should be aiming for. As long as there is a good balance of experience you'll be fine.
Baswell, can you define what a "real" aeroplane is? Two wings and an engine? Does the ex VH registered Jabiru I once flew change from "real" to "not real" once numbers were put on the side? This "real aeroplane" thing always amuses me.

[baswell]

Baswell, can you define what a "real" aeroplane is?

Beats the hell out of me! If it carries a person aloft with a reasonable chance of getting them down safely, it's a real aircraft as far as I am concerned.

However, there are plenty of RA-Aus bashers here and elsewhere that seem to call some aircraft "real" and others, not so much. "paddock bashers" and "fly swatters" and the like are terms often used.