NT Aeromed
Thanks a lot 'morno' that's a great story to tell the grand kids, if you survive!
Nah really terrific answer to what I asked. I thought that it might be something long those lines going to Vne & using what you have left, the only thing you have left the energy in the beast. I would use the same process in any SE to climb using what's available energy wise, those few extra feet might make all the difference.
Interesting thought the 7nm arc procedure. This I assume is only good if the AD you are attempting to land at has terrain flat ALL the way round & not hills round most of it.
You didn't mention however what procedure was adopted if you didn't break visual & the cloud/fog was on the deck. Min fwd speed wings level & if yr best mate is God (which it would have to be flying SE in IMC) pray like there's no 2moro 'cause there probably won't be!
Anyway again tnxs for that update 'morno'. I take my hat off to you guys who fly those PC12's in aeromed tasks in all wx to lots of dark nasty places & at night,I really do. I couldn't do it & that's by choice.
And may I ask when you get a chance what the procedure is for an engine failure after T/off that precluded a return the the departure AD? Being at high FL's & with open flat terrain in VMC is obviously the best chance for an off AD ldg but we have to take off & land sometime right & at night into cloud?
I hope the Mods don't slam this one closed just yet, this is now becoming a learning curve for a change.
Wmk2
Nah really terrific answer to what I asked. I thought that it might be something long those lines going to Vne & using what you have left, the only thing you have left the energy in the beast. I would use the same process in any SE to climb using what's available energy wise, those few extra feet might make all the difference.Interesting thought the 7nm arc procedure. This I assume is only good if the AD you are attempting to land at has terrain flat ALL the way round & not hills round most of it.
You didn't mention however what procedure was adopted if you didn't break visual & the cloud/fog was on the deck. Min fwd speed wings level & if yr best mate is God (which it would have to be flying SE in IMC) pray like there's no 2moro 'cause there probably won't be!
Anyway again tnxs for that update 'morno'. I take my hat off to you guys who fly those PC12's in aeromed tasks in all wx to lots of dark nasty places & at night,I really do. I couldn't do it & that's by choice.
And may I ask when you get a chance what the procedure is for an engine failure after T/off that precluded a return the the departure AD? Being at high FL's & with open flat terrain in VMC is obviously the best chance for an off AD ldg but we have to take off & land sometime right & at night into cloud?
I hope the Mods don't slam this one closed just yet, this is now becoming a learning curve for a change.
Wmk2
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Morno,
nice work.
When you are filling the GPS with airfields do you give any options, eg night rated strips with lighting?
On a dark and stormy night, engine failure and trying to get the man with the flares out in a hurry would be, I imagine a big case of fiddy cen ten cent on the pucka valve.
nice work.
When you are filling the GPS with airfields do you give any options, eg night rated strips with lighting?
On a dark and stormy night, engine failure and trying to get the man with the flares out in a hurry would be, I imagine a big case of fiddy cen ten cent on the pucka valve.
Typical ROD with a failed engine in the PC-12 is around 800-1,000fpm. And from FL180 down to the ground (assuming ground is at MSL) would give you a glide range of pretty close to 45nm's, if not a bit more
Dr
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Nicely explained morno! 
I'm assuming that is QLD's procedure, where did it originate?
Hey there Wally, obviously this aint gonna work in 100% of scenarios, but you can either continue the glide to say 3nm:3000' or follow the arc in a direction (anti-clockwise is the SOP) that allows an approach from the most favourable direction. In any case the 6:1 profile is already reasonably steep. 
As for a return to the field: with a properly executed departure and appropriate adjustments to your climb speed, a return to the field would be available in the majority of instances (howling gales excepted) for almost all of your climb. This is no doubt one of the reasons that our SOPs here use a higher T.O. minima, which conincidentally is well above the 700' that morno speaks of.
Yes this is done, database size permitting. Some simply have a runway direction, others PCL etc. The downside is that this uses up memory that could be other strips that one might want in times of need.
Any way you deal with it, Murphy is still going make your life entertaining at times!
I'm assuming that is QLD's procedure, where did it originate?
This I assume is only good if the AD you are attempting to land at has terrain flat ALL the way round & not hills round most of it.
As for a return to the field: with a properly executed departure and appropriate adjustments to your climb speed, a return to the field would be available in the majority of instances (howling gales excepted) for almost all of your climb. This is no doubt one of the reasons that our SOPs here use a higher T.O. minima, which conincidentally is well above the 700' that morno speaks of.
When you are filling the GPS with airfields do you give any options, eg night rated strips with lighting?
Any way you deal with it, Murphy is still going make your life entertaining at times!
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Towering Q
The testing officer will not fail an engine on an NDB approach in a PC 12??
Why not????
Is it too dangerous????
A king air can handle it.
Maybe a King Air IS safer.
Why not????
Is it too dangerous????
A king air can handle it.
Maybe a King Air IS safer.
Maxgrad,
We have KLN90B's in our PC-12's. We normally only put the runway length, runway directions, elevation, and whether it's hard or soft in the details. That then makes it appear on our EHSI in the Map Mode with Airfields selected. Helps give us a warm fuzzy feeling when we see aerodromes being displayed in our 40Nm ring, knowing we have a chance,. Don't normally insert any other details (there is the option to though). I guess I figure it's an airfield, and at a time of need (ie. no engine), then any airfield will do!
Most of the time we'd be at a decent level that would enable us to have a reasonable amount of time to get ready for the forced landing. As I said before, the autopilot is a very big help in such a situation, as you can get settled, go through everything, and get out any airstrip details you need, without the need to concentrate so much on flying the aircraft. Airfields which are in the GPS are only one's which are in our company airfield directory, or in the ERSA. So we always have at least most details on the airfield.
Should you be stuck at night with a failed donk, and gliding to an airstrip with no lights, the nurses also have a procedure which they follow (great help those nurses,). That being, they ring up the owners of the strip we're gliding to, alert them to what has happened, and what we're doing. They can then talk them through how to set up car headlights on the strip, which will give us some runway lighting.
Wally,
Basically, if our donk fails below 1,000ft AGL, we're going straight ahead into the tree's/grass/whatever looks not too bad. Through 1,000ft though, then the PC-12 is more than capable of turning back to the airstrip. Yes, it's against everything you ever learnt flying piston singles, about turning back, but rest assured, done properly, it is a safe procedure, and you'll always find yourself high on the approach once you've finished the turn.
On climb normally though, it's just a matter of flying it as a single engine aircraft. Meaning that you climb it at such a speed that if your engine did fail, then you are able to turn straight back around, and glide back to the airfield you originated from. All a matter of risk management. Unfortunately I'm not the boss, so I don't get a choice in what aircraft we buy and don't buy, so if I'm given a single engine a/c, then you just need to minimise the risk of flying in that single engine a/c. So you do climbs which enable turn backs, you remain constantly alert to what your engine is doing, and you make a habit of getting to know as many airstrips in the area's you're flying. Basically, just fly it as though your engine is going to fail every time. Then you'll be in a better position should it ever fail,.
Reverseflow,
I'm not entirely sure where it originated from at the start (dare I say Pilatus themselves as a guess), but I'd say our section got it off Central Section.
morno
We have KLN90B's in our PC-12's. We normally only put the runway length, runway directions, elevation, and whether it's hard or soft in the details. That then makes it appear on our EHSI in the Map Mode with Airfields selected. Helps give us a warm fuzzy feeling when we see aerodromes being displayed in our 40Nm ring, knowing we have a chance,
. Don't normally insert any other details (there is the option to though). I guess I figure it's an airfield, and at a time of need (ie. no engine), then any airfield will do!Most of the time we'd be at a decent level that would enable us to have a reasonable amount of time to get ready for the forced landing. As I said before, the autopilot is a very big help in such a situation, as you can get settled, go through everything, and get out any airstrip details you need, without the need to concentrate so much on flying the aircraft. Airfields which are in the GPS are only one's which are in our company airfield directory, or in the ERSA. So we always have at least most details on the airfield.
Should you be stuck at night with a failed donk, and gliding to an airstrip with no lights, the nurses also have a procedure which they follow (great help those nurses,
). That being, they ring up the owners of the strip we're gliding to, alert them to what has happened, and what we're doing. They can then talk them through how to set up car headlights on the strip, which will give us some runway lighting.Wally,
Basically, if our donk fails below 1,000ft AGL, we're going straight ahead into the tree's/grass/whatever looks not too bad. Through 1,000ft though, then the PC-12 is more than capable of turning back to the airstrip. Yes, it's against everything you ever learnt flying piston singles, about turning back, but rest assured, done properly, it is a safe procedure, and you'll always find yourself high on the approach once you've finished the turn.
On climb normally though, it's just a matter of flying it as a single engine aircraft. Meaning that you climb it at such a speed that if your engine did fail, then you are able to turn straight back around, and glide back to the airfield you originated from. All a matter of risk management. Unfortunately I'm not the boss, so I don't get a choice in what aircraft we buy and don't buy, so if I'm given a single engine a/c, then you just need to minimise the risk of flying in that single engine a/c. So you do climbs which enable turn backs, you remain constantly alert to what your engine is doing, and you make a habit of getting to know as many airstrips in the area's you're flying. Basically, just fly it as though your engine is going to fail every time. Then you'll be in a better position should it ever fail,
.Reverseflow,
I'm not entirely sure where it originated from at the start (dare I say Pilatus themselves as a guess), but I'd say our section got it off Central Section.
morno
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Reverse,
The procedure originates from the Military, the Australian Military use it.
There are questions about hitting a hill at 236 KIAS, on a one to one descent, there is not likely going to be terra-firma in that area, how would a aircraft out climb that in VMC ?, the only concern I could think about is from the west into YBCS.
Turn backs are relatively common in newer aircraft, Flightsafety teach it for the C208.
To expand on one point, 7,000 AGL and 7NM is quite critical, if you went to 10,000 AGL / 10nm, you'd bust VNE.
I'm with morno, its great fun, in training.
The procedure originates from the Military, the Australian Military use it.
There are questions about hitting a hill at 236 KIAS, on a one to one descent, there is not likely going to be terra-firma in that area, how would a aircraft out climb that in VMC ?, the only concern I could think about is from the west into YBCS.
Turn backs are relatively common in newer aircraft, Flightsafety teach it for the C208.
To expand on one point, 7,000 AGL and 7NM is quite critical, if you went to 10,000 AGL / 10nm, you'd bust VNE.
I'm with morno, its great fun, in training.
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All I know is that watching the cloud break procedure from the ground is hellishly good fun.
I've watched both the RFDS Central mob and NT Police practicing it and its well worth the time. The scream as the PC12 belts overhead and then into the steep turns onto final is something to hear.
I've watched both the RFDS Central mob and NT Police practicing it and its well worth the time. The scream as the PC12 belts overhead and then into the steep turns onto final is something to hear.
Sprucegoose
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The cloud break procedure.
How am I suposed to remember all that? At what point does one 'assume the position'?
I think I'll just put the other lever up and head to the nearest 'suitable'!
PS: Does sound like fun though (not for real of course...)
Great replies here guys, 'morno' I think we have started something here.
As 'HH' said though that's a lot to remember on top of all the other high work load (at times) aeromed brings.Excellent thinking that yr going to loose that engine the whole time yr flying, that way yr not caught out completly, but I bet you would still be stunned if it all went quiet at 500' after T/off
'Plovet' that scream you mention as the PC12 is going over head during a practice eng failure aint the plane itself it's the crew trapped inside their future coffin screaming their heads off! (No disrespect meant)
I can recall when I was training for my CPL my instructor & I where a little bored one day during practise everythings so he pulled the throttle back to idle at 500' after T/Off in the old C150 & I practised turning around back to the field (Taree)to line up the dep rwy. We did it easily when I think about it now but I guesss that's a light weight plane but even so then to me it was a scarey event, can't imagine it being done at night in the PC12 for real, brave stuff
hey Dr even the old girl (B200) will glide nil wind 36 nm's from FL180 but I figure if you are doing that then it's time, time to make a public apology over the radio to all the SE drivers out there who think it's as safe in a PC 12 for Eg. that paerhaps twins aren't that safe afterall I love you mum, part of the QRH under engine failure in PC12 perhaps?
So for now am enjoying this thread, some useful info coming from all corners of belief
Wmk2
As 'HH' said though that's a lot to remember on top of all the other high work load (at times) aeromed brings.Excellent thinking that yr going to loose that engine the whole time yr flying, that way yr not caught out completly, but I bet you would still be stunned if it all went quiet at 500' after T/off
'Plovet' that scream you mention as the PC12 is going over head during a practice eng failure aint the plane itself it's the crew trapped inside their future coffin screaming their heads off! (No disrespect meant)
I can recall when I was training for my CPL my instructor & I where a little bored one day during practise everythings so he pulled the throttle back to idle at 500' after T/Off in the old C150 & I practised turning around back to the field (Taree)to line up the dep rwy. We did it easily when I think about it now but I guesss that's a light weight plane but even so then to me it was a scarey event, can't imagine it being done at night in the PC12 for real, brave stuff
hey Dr
even the old girl (B200) will glide nil wind 36 nm's from FL180 but I figure if you are doing that then it's time, time to make a public apology over the radio to all the SE drivers out there who think it's as safe in a PC 12 for Eg. that paerhaps twins aren't that safe afterall I love you mum, part of the QRH under engine failure in PC12 perhaps?So for now am enjoying this thread, some useful info coming from all corners of belief
Wmk2
'tinpis' that is so true, as I said elsewhere here I had this very conversation (SE v Twin) with the DR the other night enroute over tiger country when we hit nasty turbulence & he thought we where gunna die anyway. The Ambos down our way simply won't fly in a SE plane, their union got involved when the contract was originally set up I believe
.
'DD' yr right there but ANY A/C can go down even one with 4 engines, the core subject here now though is safety of a SE v twin if an engine fails.
Was that the one that crashed just after T/off at Toowoomba?
I never did follow it up as to the cause.
Wmk2
.
'DD' yr right there but ANY A/C can go down even one with 4 engines, the core subject here now though is safety of a SE v twin if an engine fails.
Was that the one that crashed just after T/off at Toowoomba?
I never did follow it up as to the cause.
Wmk2
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as said previously.. its all numbers..
I am a fan of SE turbine (PT6) aircraft.. but there is NO argument that a PC12 has as many options as a kingair should one fail..
If the question though is " do you consider the PC 12 sufficiently safe to fly in the AEROMED enviroment" then absolutely..
we all know the numbers regarding PT6 failure rates... yet in a twin enviroment life is lived on the assumption that the most critical will fail at the most critical time.. no arguments against that planning but.. ..
how many kingair drivers know the speeds/cloudbreak procedures/glide ratio required etc etc to get into an off track ALA after both fail..
surely if one is so likely to fail every takeoff then 2 must fail now and again.. and as we all know fuel starvation is much more common than eng failure in these aircraft.. having two aint gunna help that one..
so there is an awesome (and well practised) explanation of how the PC12 guys would handle it.. whats the plan for the kingair crowd...??
I am a fan of SE turbine (PT6) aircraft.. but there is NO argument that a PC12 has as many options as a kingair should one fail..
If the question though is " do you consider the PC 12 sufficiently safe to fly in the AEROMED enviroment" then absolutely..
we all know the numbers regarding PT6 failure rates... yet in a twin enviroment life is lived on the assumption that the most critical will fail at the most critical time.. no arguments against that planning but.. ..
how many kingair drivers know the speeds/cloudbreak procedures/glide ratio required etc etc to get into an off track ALA after both fail..
surely if one is so likely to fail every takeoff then 2 must fail now and again.. and as we all know fuel starvation is much more common than eng failure in these aircraft.. having two aint gunna help that one..
so there is an awesome (and well practised) explanation of how the PC12 guys would handle it.. whats the plan for the kingair crowd...??
................how many kingair drivers know the speeds/cloudbreak procedures/glide ratio required etc etc to get into an off track ALA after both fail........'gold' I think yr drawing a very long bow now mate. As for answering some of yr somewhat 'off track' question. Glide speed for the B200 135 kts. Dist travelled per 1000 ft nil wind 2 nm. There is to my knowledge no procedure for doing anything other than what every pilot was taught at the very beginning of training for an engine out failure whether it be 2 or 1.You can argue that ANY flying is unsafe using the above statements but they build multi engined planes for very good sound reasons, one being to enhance the chances of survival should an engine fail.
Look nobody is denying that the PC12 for Eg. isn't a safe plane. It's probably one of the safest planes around in its class but that's just it, in it's class, it's simply not in the same class as the B200 for Eg. & could never be so by the very nature of it being a SE plane.
Can both types perform the same task? Well yes of course they can.
Can both types perform the same task with the same level of safety?
NO!
The story continues, I hope
Wmk2
p.s............I must thank the Mods for allowing this thread to continue, there maybe a glimer of hope in their hearts afterall
Wmk2
Look nobody is denying that the PC12 for Eg. isn't a safe plane. It's probably one of the safest planes around in its class but that's just it, in it's class, it's simply not in the same class as the B200 for Eg. & could never be so by the very nature of it being a SE plane.
Can both types perform the same task? Well yes of course they can.
Can both types perform the same task with the same level of safety?
NO!
The story continues, I hope
Wmk2
p.s............I must thank the Mods for allowing this thread to continue, there maybe a glimer of hope in their hearts afterall
Wmk2
but they build multi engined planes for very good sound reasons, one being to enhance the chances of survival should an engine fail
Try it sometime! Fire up one only on the big Beech, and see how far you get!
Dr
PS: Do you think there is something in this thread for me? Now, how does it go again? Glide for a 7 nm arc by 7000' - and then dive for the runway at Vne!
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Tinpis,
Certain medical staff are crew and thus a vital part of the whole sherbang. Like anything in the a/c, they are there to be used as needed. Many have been flying for long enough to know what sounds are normal and when things have changed shape.
Generally make good coffee too
Certain medical staff are crew and thus a vital part of the whole sherbang. Like anything in the a/c, they are there to be used as needed. Many have been flying for long enough to know what sounds are normal and when things have changed shape.
Generally make good coffee too
As LHRT stated, the 'Cloudbreak Procedure' originated with the military but you have to bear in mind that its a bit different getting to the bottom (700'agl) not visual and using your inertia to grab altitude and then ejecting!! PC12s unfortunately don't have that option.
The CB Procedure, although a lot of fun and a real test of a pilot's raw ability, was generally regarded by most pilots (in the RFDS section I worked for) as a poor second option to gliding from altitude to overhead the field then high key, low key, final all the way to the threshold. Personally who cares if it takes 20 min to finally hit the ground?
On a side note I always wondered if it was possible for GPS manafacturers to design a standard High key, Low key, Final overlay for application on any (1000m or more) aerodrome in your GPS's database. Surely it would be simple trigonometry using the aerodrome reference point?
cheers
Sarcs
ps have over 1500hrs in the PC12 but I would always prefer to have my backside parked in the trusty old B200. The pucker factor is not quite so great when flogging around in the middle of the night over tiger country!
The CB Procedure, although a lot of fun and a real test of a pilot's raw ability, was generally regarded by most pilots (in the RFDS section I worked for) as a poor second option to gliding from altitude to overhead the field then high key, low key, final all the way to the threshold. Personally who cares if it takes 20 min to finally hit the ground?
On a side note I always wondered if it was possible for GPS manafacturers to design a standard High key, Low key, Final overlay for application on any (1000m or more) aerodrome in your GPS's database. Surely it would be simple trigonometry using the aerodrome reference point?
cheers
Sarcs
ps have over 1500hrs in the PC12 but I would always prefer to have my backside parked in the trusty old B200. The pucker factor is not quite so great when flogging around in the middle of the night over tiger country!
Silly Old Git
I wondered how long it would be for someone to state the bleeding obvious
not visual and using your inertia to grab altitude and then ejecting!! PC12s unfortunately don't have that option.