V Australia-Tell me it aint true! (Merged Thread)
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Well I got a response. And although I failed to even momentarily deflect the sanctimonious nature of your posts. I can politely point out that though you were weened on censorship yourself; my response didn't warrant it for it reflected a recent government mandate.
Given the number of South Africans being granted visas to reside and work in Australia I doubt that your interpretation of the government mandate is correct.
Last edited by loveflying737; 30th Jan 2008 at 09:11.
Maybe they will play for the Wallabies and they will take the World Cup back to Aussie next time.
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As to the SA contingent, I don't think most would object to new immigrants getting jobs. But given that a DEC with V Oz is arguably the second best job in the local industry after a QF LH CPT, if they think they (or Aussie expat 777 drivers for that matter) can come in and take those positions without treading on a few toes, they have to be deluded. That is just an observation, not a comment about whether it is right or wrong.
I do think that all propective applicants are going to have to accept that VOZ is going to take the people they feel will be best for the operation. If the pilots who are Australian citizens / permanent residents and hold Australian ATPs are given first bite at the apple, surely that should satisfy the masses. I don't think that expat Aussie pilots or recently immigrated permanent residents should (or will) be discriminated against.
In reality whenever a person is offered any position ahead of another there is a certain amount of ill feeling. I am sure that the pilots who are fortunate enough to get the jobs won't be too concerned as they will be working with other pilots as fortunate as themselves - they can then choose who they drink beer with.
Last edited by loveflying737; 30th Jan 2008 at 09:10.
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Who gives a rats arse about the Rugby anyway. It is going down the tubes in OZ, just look at the attendance numbers for the soccer and cricket this year, heaps better than the rugby.
I believe you are also right that most would have no objection to expat pilots / SA pilots being employed as long as they fulfilled the residence and licence requirements.
South African pilots are cheap and are purely being used as anti-inflationary.
I can't believe Australian pilots individually or collectively through unions aren't objecting to this.
There are thousands of Australian pilots qualified for the Virgin positions. Let's save our immigration policies for real skills shortages- say South African mining engineers.
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There are thousands of Australian pilots qualified for the Virgin positions. Let's save our immigration policies for real skills shortages- say South African mining engineers.
Is this because you are not a mining engineer and it would not affect you????? Strange that there are no doctors /nurses / engineers / dentists / school teachers, etc. etc. going on the internet to whinge about foreing workers. Why is it that pilots have such a problem ??????
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Is this because you are not a mining engineer and it would not affect you????? Strange that there are no doctors /nurses / engineers / dentists / school teachers, etc. etc. going on the internet to whinge about foreing workers.
Australian pilots effectively have 2 employers.
What would 1000 foreign doctors do for the average doctors T&C's?
What would 1000 foreign pilots do to the average pilots T&C's?
Is this because you are not a mining engineer and it would not affect you????? Strange that there are no doctors /nurses / engineers / dentists / school teachers, etc. etc. going on the internet to whinge about foreing workers. Why is it that pilots have such a problem ??????
No. We just don't need you. And I can't believe there isn't a rage ( yet ) on the use of cheap South African pilots.
For very little investment, Virgin can get all the pilots it needs. And they would be Australians. Whether they be repatriated skills from the likes of EK & CX for experience; or the investment by way of an endorsement for the thousands of other Australian pilots.
Virgin just want to pay bottom dollar. And that's where the South Africans come in.
Our immigration policy should be directed toward a genuine skills shortage. Talent that takes years to develop or involves excessive short term investment for industry.
And Australian pilots isn't one of them!
All Australian pilots should start writing to politicians. Who's the Immigration Minister these days?
Yes I agree, it sucks big time.
Not one South African of South American Pilot should be employed at any flying job in Oz. Not until there are zero Australian Pilots available to fill the positions.
And don't say they can't get qualified Aussies to apply so it's ok to recruit overseas. They need to pay the right amount of money in the first place and heaps of guys would jump at the jobs.
I have a command rating on the 777 and 3000+ hrs command but I wont even bother applying until someone at V Oz can tell me the PAY SCALES, STAFF TRAVEL ENTITLEMENTS, ROSTERING PRACTICES, CREW COMPLIMENT, BASINGS, REDUNDANCY PACKAGE etc etc etc.
So there are plenty of qualified Aussies both inside and outside of Australia that could fill all of the positions but don't feel the need to prostitute themselves.
Not one South African of South American Pilot should be employed at any flying job in Oz. Not until there are zero Australian Pilots available to fill the positions.
And don't say they can't get qualified Aussies to apply so it's ok to recruit overseas. They need to pay the right amount of money in the first place and heaps of guys would jump at the jobs.
I have a command rating on the 777 and 3000+ hrs command but I wont even bother applying until someone at V Oz can tell me the PAY SCALES, STAFF TRAVEL ENTITLEMENTS, ROSTERING PRACTICES, CREW COMPLIMENT, BASINGS, REDUNDANCY PACKAGE etc etc etc.
So there are plenty of qualified Aussies both inside and outside of Australia that could fill all of the positions but don't feel the need to prostitute themselves.
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I heard the other day that AIPA and the AMA are going to approach
the goverment regarding the use of 457 visa's to import cheap labour when
we have sufficient Australian pilots to do the job.It is just a scam to once again lower wages.As far as the Doctors are concerned they want more University places made available to train our own MD's.
the goverment regarding the use of 457 visa's to import cheap labour when
we have sufficient Australian pilots to do the job.It is just a scam to once again lower wages.As far as the Doctors are concerned they want more University places made available to train our own MD's.
They can't offer absolute rubbish pay for Pilot's in Australia, then say they have to recruit overseas because they cannot get qualified Australians to do the job. It's just utter BS
If they paid properly they would have no trouble recruiting/retaining qualified staff. This applies equally from REX up to V Australia.
So don't blame the Pilot's for any perceived shortage.
We are around, waiting...................waiting.
SHOW US THE MONEY.
If they paid properly they would have no trouble recruiting/retaining qualified staff. This applies equally from REX up to V Australia.
So don't blame the Pilot's for any perceived shortage.
We are around, waiting...................waiting.
SHOW US THE MONEY.
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No. We just don't need you. And I can't believe there isn't a rage ( yet ) on the use of cheap South African pilots.
For very little investment, Virgin can get all the pilots it needs. And they would be Australians. Whether they be repatriated skills from the likes of EK & CX for experience; or the investment by way of an endorsement for the thousands of other Australian pilots.
Virgin just want to pay bottom dollar. And that's where the South Africans come in.
Our immigration policy should be directed toward a genuine skills shortage. Talent that takes years to develop or involves excessive short term investment for industry.
And Australian pilots isn't one of them!
All Australian pilots should start writing to politicians. Who's the Immigration Minister these days?
For very little investment, Virgin can get all the pilots it needs. And they would be Australians. Whether they be repatriated skills from the likes of EK & CX for experience; or the investment by way of an endorsement for the thousands of other Australian pilots.
Virgin just want to pay bottom dollar. And that's where the South Africans come in.
Our immigration policy should be directed toward a genuine skills shortage. Talent that takes years to develop or involves excessive short term investment for industry.
And Australian pilots isn't one of them!
All Australian pilots should start writing to politicians. Who's the Immigration Minister these days?
The Australian real nett disposable income per capita for 2006 (can't find the latest figures - sorry) was A$37000pa and pilots are balking at earning
between +- A$80 000 pa (FO) - A$200 000 pa (Captain) that is going to go down well with the general population. Tell them they have to pay more for their tickets so that pilots can earn more, mmm.
Let me help you out here - your Minister for Immigration and Citizenship is Chris Evans and your Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations is Julia Gillard.
There is such a fuss being made about VOz possibly employing South African pilots and to date not one has even been interviewed. Given that VOz does not offer 457 visas (at this stage) - by my count there are less than 10 South African pilots who could apply. They would hold permanent residence visas to work in Australia so could hardly be discounted.
You repeatedly mention "cheap South African" pilots - I am not sure what makes them cheap. Are you so sure that they will undersell themselves.
Why don't you wait to see who is actually employed before making all this fuss.
As I get the feeling that the word xenophobia might apply here I will not post on this topic any further.
Good luck to all who apply to VOz - once I have some time on type and my visa is in order I certainly will apply.
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The Australian real nett disposable income per capita for 2006 (can't find the latest figures - sorry) was A$37000pa and pilots are balking at earning
between +- A$80 000 pa (FO) - A$200 000 pa (Captain) that is going to go down well with the general population. Tell them they have to pay more for their tickets so that pilots can earn more, mmm.
between +- A$80 000 pa (FO) - A$200 000 pa (Captain) that is going to go down well with the general population. Tell them they have to pay more for their tickets so that pilots can earn more, mmm.
Could not see a way to give a better opportunity for my kids than my parents did for me, and that is ALL that my wife and I attempt to do! Retirement was a plan I had absolutely no disposable income to devote to.
Good luck to any immigrants who hope for a FINANCIALLY SECURE future in the country I can no longer afford to live in but will now retire comfortably to.
I understand (as the son of a post war immigrant) that you are considering a safe and secure country for your families. My heart goes out to you. I know you love your country, and it hurts deeply to leave it. When you see the future of South Africa written in the current situation in Zimbabwe it makes sense to go to a place with a similar culture where you will be safe and accepted.
Consider though the thoughts and feelings not only of the financial refugees like myself, wife and family, but also of those young, eager and talented young guys working themselves up from sweeping hangar floors, refueling aircraft in the heat dust and flies, loading freight and doing a hundred menial tasks in order to one day do the job that you are going to take from them.
In the short term all you are doing is driving down terms and conditions. In the long term you are going to do long term damage to our industry by removing any incentive young people have to aspire to be an airline pilot.
Once you have your residency for your families and a safe and secure first world country to base yourselves in I guess we'll see you back OS where the money is.
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ennui... I agree with all you say! But no one can actually justify earning more than the average wage to someone who earns less than they do.
It is simply a fact of life in an open market where people get paid what the market demands.
How can you justify someone getting paid a million dollars just to show up and play a round of golf?
We as pilots have freely taken up a career where we are subject to the vagaries of market forces, for better or worse!
Unfortunately in Australia there has been an over supply of pilots for so long that we have become dysfunctional as a group. We are divided and have been conquered.
Now that there is a shortage of experienced pilots we should see some correction in terms and conditions. However, the companies will now try to prevent this overdue correction by importing cheap labour to artificially keep labour charges lower.
This ultimately prevents new students from entering the market, resulting in less flying schools, instructors, GA pilots etc.... Bad for the industry and economy.
For the sake of the whole industry, Pilots in OZ need to work together to prevent this from continuing.
If that means that airfares have to rise, then so be it.
In the 90's the government tried to bring in foreign workers to man the waterfront at cheaper rates and longer hours. It did not work because the water front workers stuck together! Most of them now earn more money than an F/O in OZ and many Captains.
Australian Pilots are entitled to the same rights as all other Australians and all Australians need to support them in this or no job will be secure.
It is simply a fact of life in an open market where people get paid what the market demands.
How can you justify someone getting paid a million dollars just to show up and play a round of golf?
We as pilots have freely taken up a career where we are subject to the vagaries of market forces, for better or worse!
Unfortunately in Australia there has been an over supply of pilots for so long that we have become dysfunctional as a group. We are divided and have been conquered.
Now that there is a shortage of experienced pilots we should see some correction in terms and conditions. However, the companies will now try to prevent this overdue correction by importing cheap labour to artificially keep labour charges lower.
This ultimately prevents new students from entering the market, resulting in less flying schools, instructors, GA pilots etc.... Bad for the industry and economy.
For the sake of the whole industry, Pilots in OZ need to work together to prevent this from continuing.
If that means that airfares have to rise, then so be it.
In the 90's the government tried to bring in foreign workers to man the waterfront at cheaper rates and longer hours. It did not work because the water front workers stuck together! Most of them now earn more money than an F/O in OZ and many Captains.
Australian Pilots are entitled to the same rights as all other Australians and all Australians need to support them in this or no job will be secure.
Hey ShockWave,
Firstly, I wish V Australia all the very best and every success it deserves - and congrats to all the experienced / devoted technical, cabin and support crew that shall be recruited.
In response to your last post though, would there be, in your view, any possibility of organising some sort of "educational forum" ,(lets say), in the hope of instigating a much-needed wave of change (i.e in the value that we are credited for by our respective employers) in this profession of ours... ?
I know that this sort of event could be difficult (or near impossible) to arrange, but could this 'divide/conquer' mentality be at least somewhat attacked/attempted to be overcome??? (I'm extremely non-militent JFTR)
You said it yourself, unity CAN effect change.. It is etched in History's pages..
Surely a great deal of us here in Aus Aviation believe that the tide is beginning to turn, and now could just well be the time to vocalise and iterate that fact...
Just a thought...
BR
Firstly, I wish V Australia all the very best and every success it deserves - and congrats to all the experienced / devoted technical, cabin and support crew that shall be recruited.
In response to your last post though, would there be, in your view, any possibility of organising some sort of "educational forum" ,(lets say), in the hope of instigating a much-needed wave of change (i.e in the value that we are credited for by our respective employers) in this profession of ours... ?
I know that this sort of event could be difficult (or near impossible) to arrange, but could this 'divide/conquer' mentality be at least somewhat attacked/attempted to be overcome??? (I'm extremely non-militent JFTR)
You said it yourself, unity CAN effect change.. It is etched in History's pages..
Surely a great deal of us here in Aus Aviation believe that the tide is beginning to turn, and now could just well be the time to vocalise and iterate that fact...
Just a thought...
BR
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There is another thread which has been started by Lawrie Cox AFAP which details an excellent way that things could proceed and possibly succeed. I hope for everyones sake that progress can be made in this regard.
It is so frustrating to sit overseas and watch you guys fight against one another as to how much less you can work for. I can only guess at how it must feel to be a part of a self perpetuating decline in professional terms and conditions.
Then when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas! So you lose again!
I don't think it is just a matter of education, we are all well aware of where we are and how we got here. Our motivation, goals and egos will always be prey to exploitation from our employers, and we generally accept it because there always seems to be another carrot dangled just in sight.
We have to become less self absorbed, competitive, and fearful.
Which of course are all the things we have depended upon our whole careers to succeed and stay alive!
The industry needs to change in order for it's members to change.
The industry can only change if it's members want it to change.
The industry needs to have workers who feel that they are members of the same industry.
If you strap on an aircraft for a living you are part of the same industry, no matter the size!
Work together and work it out guys. Good luck
It is so frustrating to sit overseas and watch you guys fight against one another as to how much less you can work for. I can only guess at how it must feel to be a part of a self perpetuating decline in professional terms and conditions.
Then when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas!
So you lose again!I don't think it is just a matter of education, we are all well aware of where we are and how we got here. Our motivation, goals and egos will always be prey to exploitation from our employers, and we generally accept it because there always seems to be another carrot dangled just in sight.
We have to become less self absorbed, competitive, and fearful.
Which of course are all the things we have depended upon our whole careers to succeed and stay alive!
The industry needs to change in order for it's members to change.
The industry can only change if it's members want it to change.
The industry needs to have workers who feel that they are members of the same industry.
If you strap on an aircraft for a living you are part of the same industry, no matter the size!
Work together and work it out guys. Good luck
Shockwave,
Its good to be the King, Lord of all you survey. With all due respect:
This doesn't affect me but from what I've read and heard around the traps, the Virgin people are concerned about the expats all coming home and working for a lot less than the going rate, just to get home. Where does that stand in your equation. I believe (open to correction on anything, being a rumour network and all) that Virgin is offering about 210K including super. That would put your base pay at about 190K AUD (170K USD/630K Dirham/116K Euros/87K GBP and 1280K Rand), losing about another 45% of that in tax, depending on your situation of course. My understanding is that this is way below the going rate for a 777 skipper. So back to the crunch.....pilots from overseas coming home and "taking" (please note inverted comma's people) jobs from local people. And yes, a lot of expats ARE local people, but once again are they coming home and accepting lower T&C's just to get home. If its that rosey overseas, why the clamour for these jobs. If Virgin had to pay the going rate I dont think the animosity that exists today would be as dividing to our profession, and that would be a very good thing. So shockwave, please dont lecture us about our race to the bottom when the race is infact being won at the moment by (apparantly) the expats wanting to come home. Your argument is self defeating
But then again, I have no idea.
Its good to be the King, Lord of all you survey. With all due respect:
It is so frustrating to sit overseas and watch you guys fight against one another as to how much less you can work for. I can only guess at how it must feel to be a part of a self perpetuating decline in professional terms and conditions.
Then when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas! So you lose again!
I don't think it is just a matter of education, we are all well aware of where we are and how we got here. Our motivation, goals and egos will always be prey to exploitation from our employers, and we generally accept it because there always seems to be another carrot dangled just in sight.
Then when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas!
So you lose again!I don't think it is just a matter of education, we are all well aware of where we are and how we got here. Our motivation, goals and egos will always be prey to exploitation from our employers, and we generally accept it because there always seems to be another carrot dangled just in sight.
Then when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas! So you lose again!
So you lose again!
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How many fit this profile?
Have been OS for a long time, not necessarily of their own choice, are ready to retire soon, a job comes up at home on current type, so for a couple of years who cares about the T & C’s, they are at home and can ease into retirement. The younger guys call look after themselves.
Sound familiar, who were the original commanders in VB.(the promised pay has still not materialised)
The FO’s will be the ones to suffer. Don’t think about progression the VB guys will be looking for the 777 command.
Have been OS for a long time, not necessarily of their own choice, are ready to retire soon, a job comes up at home on current type, so for a couple of years who cares about the T & C’s, they are at home and can ease into retirement. The younger guys call look after themselves.
Sound familiar, who were the original commanders in VB.(the promised pay has still not materialised)
The FO’s will be the ones to suffer. Don’t think about progression the VB guys will be looking for the 777 command.