lil_blueberry

I had the call yesterday and would say that it was pretty vague other than a guesstimate of wages on there part with nothing concrete for them to say........ I couldn't even be bothered asking any decent questions cause i knew the answer....."Oh i couldn't tell you that cause they haven't worked it out yet"
.... I assume that paying/bonding for the type rating will further reduce the pay.
Cruise F/O = $75,000 before allowances and that included super! ..... barely acceptable (especially living in Sydney) sitting on a plane doing 16hrs of not much....... with allowances probably take 90k Max
I tell you what.... I am gonna stick it with Qantaslink and here's my reasons:
* Not as boring sorties.
* Home for the partner and kids most nights.....
* with some over time and after allowances you take about 60 - 65K pa....... (only about 20k max difference for the boring as pacific/oceanic flying, with allowances)
* Better roster ........
* Possible chance of movement onto other Qantas group of companies.........More progression in Q.Link even though it ain't a jet.
If your gonna call around to find People of the industry just walk into the newly graduated CPL holders class and take them, whats with the see what people will take survey, surely something fishy?

TAC inop.

I'm sure you have valid reasons for your decission 'Blue', good call to evaluate it in terms that suit you and your situation, but why the sling at V ? If you dont want it, cool, but how did they lead you on ? There was nothing on the site about wages....so if you expected more, then its your bad, wouldn't you say?
Plus, dude, they are paying more for a junior FO than you are currently getting...thus, the 'Scab' label just doesnt fit, really, now does it.

KaptinZZ

lil blueberry, my friend, you will win no support for any cause by throwing around phrases like "scabs of the industry".

By definition a scab is a strike breaker, and anybody who takes a job for less than what you believe reasonable is not a scab. That is the fact of the matter.

Disillusioned you may be, but don't throw emotions into any argument/ discussion, because you'll be cut down so fast you won't see it happen, and anything you say will be treated with indifference, even scorn, or ignored completely.

We've all been through times when we feel the world is agin us, but a true mark of character is how you handle those situations; currently you're not doing too well.

Keep to the facts and you will not only win arguments, but friends.

fumes

This thread has become quite lengthy, but has migrated from being an informative, factual message board to a degenerated sounding board for personal frustration and dissapointment.

VOz is a new company, who's full potential (and acceptance by the commuter) is not yet known - to anyone, including themselves. It does, however, offer some valid opportunities for a great number of pilots. If the conditions don't meet your expectations, aren't as good as your current COS, or aren't 'on par' with other companies, then simply don't apply. Who is forcing you. You are no worse off than 6 months ago when VOz didn't exist.

I recall a lot of angst wrt T & Cs when VB commenced operations, yet it proved to be a very good company to work for for many people I know in the industry. I have no doubt VOz will be the same.

It has been said many times, including within this thread, many things make up a 'good' job, and job satisfaction. Let's keep things real, many people out there are actually doing it tough...

Anyone looking towards VOz who is wrapped up in SYD-LAX, doesn't seem to be being very objective, more routes will surely follow.

The pay isn't drastically different to QF, and opportunities in a vibrant, up and coming airline may definately exist. Take it for what it is, things will only improve in the company I'm sure. If it isn't for you, fine. Any chance we can keep this thread a productive one?

lil_blueberry

maybe the wrong word at the typing of that, I apologize to those who may have shed a tear


but, I am doing quite well if your really concerned,

but other than that pprune has alot of emotion in it...... but i agree facts are nice when you find em...........

So what would you call the V.Oz ring around then? Not a fact finding mission/market research?

My mate definitely doesn't have minimums for V.B/RPT and they rang him......

your view?

Goofyfoot

Well said Fumes.The thread desperately needed some one with a little common sense and emotions intact.

fumes

My view, as VOz HR apparently stated, short listing. Most of the requirements are desireable, and I'm sure some flex either way will be exercised. Perhaps not so much 'how low can we go with pay ', but 'this is the pay, are you still interested'.

I'm sure they will get enough suitable candidates happy with the COS. Some negotiation with C & T targeted candidates perhaps, but the rest will 'fall' into place for them without to much doubt.

The upshot is, as is a common message from Virgin applicants, the interview is a final check, they interview pretty much the same numbar as they need. Saves a lot of people's time (and money) being wasted, including their own (which isn't an unrealistic approach I don't think).

If you are keen on the job, and are competitive enough against the other applicants, it should all fall into place.

Just my opinion, but none of us are 'owed' anything. 80K base for an Aus based S/O, 110K for F/O for year 1 competes with CX and QF, who knows what increments, bonus, basings (brissy maybe), progression timeframe or profit share will exist with VOz down the track.......and no pressure to move overseas....not too below par.

Gnadenburg

&


&


Things get worst as your spin progresses Fumes.

The money is crap. But maybe, just maybe, the job is a good one.

MattBNE

fumes and blueberry - interesting perspective. I don't reckon they're fishing at all - can't think of another player that is taking the time to call applicants (and not charge an application fee either, just quietly). VB did turn out to be an OK place to play and there has to be something said for the working environment. Sure across the pacific isn't a thrill a minute, but surely others will follow. These guys have proven astute in the past and seem keen to build a solid business, staffed with the right people. No-one ever forces us to apply or even express an interest, do they?

Dragun

I don't really think it's a matter of not applying if you don't want the job, more a matter of taking the job once the T&C's have been outlined - which hasn't happened yet.

The first phone call was definitely more for market research. There is no harm in going to the interview, finding out FACTS and THEN making a decision.

Pretty much everything to date is speculation and brackets with no formal decision on T&C's been made.

However, there will have to be some significant improvement in dollars (or a fantastic roster) for V Australia to get the people they're looking for.

anothershittynappy

Chicken or the egg. You cannot knock back a job until it has been offered to you. When you find out the T & C if they suit take it if they don't, leave it.

loveflying737

MonsterC01 - these gentlemen have not been employed as line pilots. The positions to which they have been appointed required more than a type rating. Whilst there are certainly many highly qualified pilot managers out there, both these gentlemen certainly rank with the best.

They may not be born and bred Australians but both love and have embraced your country. As they and their families obviously waant to enjoy what Australia has to offer they arewilling to pay the taxes necessary to maintain that infrastructure. Whilst the nett salary may not be what they could earn on a contract I have no doubt that neither of them has sold themselves for a pittance given that they were probably earning in the region of A$280 000 pa (gross) in SAA.

Give them a chance - I am sure that everyone that meets them will not only enjoy wirking with them but will understand why they were employed

loveflying737

[QUOTE]I know V Australia knocked this bloke back in favour of the (non rated?) South African. The South African must be one seriously well qualified and incredibly talented man to have been found to be a better option than the Australian they knocked back... or cheaper.

Wiley - It is disappointing that you chose to highlight the second of your two listed options.

Whilst there are certainly a number of highly qualified, capable management pilots out there, at the time VAustralia chose the person they found best suited to the job.

You certainly would have been more correct to highlight "The South African must be one seriously well qualified and incredibly talented man".

I am sure that a BSC / Bsc (Hons) / MBA / 29 years flying for a national carrier / considerable line/training and management experience on both Boeing and Airbus (old and NG) / being an integral part of the team that introduced the A340 into SAA's operation and being extremely well respected and liked by both his colleagues and many others from all fields of aviation, would qualify this statement.

He has been resident in Australia for some time and has been commuting from SA to his base in Perth. He either has or shortly will obtain his Australian citizenship.

The gross SAA salary for a person of his position would have been in the region of A$280 000 so it is unlikely that he would have sold himself short. He is obviously happy to pay the taxes necessary to sustain the lifestyle offered by Australia rather than live in the dessert or elsewhere that does not offer the same opportunity.

Give him a break / get to meet him you'll be pleasantly surprised

loveflying737

gj18457 - I am sure that VAustralia has a Human Resources department that listed the necessary criteria in order of importance. I am also sure that being an Australian Citizen / Resident and holding an Australian licence heads up this list.

This department (in which neither of the SA management pilots is involved) would then surely compile a list of pilots to be interviewed.

Australian citizens / residents holding Australian ATP licences who are B777 rated, or hold other suitable ratings would certainly be what the company would be looking for. If these pilots are happy to come back from the dessert or wherever else they find themselves and are prepared to make the sacrifice of paying the taxes needed to sustain the Australian lifestyle, I have no doubt that they will be given the jobs.

If it is expected that VAustralia should pay a gross salary which will allow them to nett what they currently do it is unlikely that the company will be able to mee these expectations. The company will then be forced to go on down the list.

If employing South Africans is what is necessary to fill the positions, surely this decision will be made by all concerned and not just two individuals.

In closing - both these gentlemen are highly intelligent and I am sure understand the sensitivities involved. It is unlikely that they would put themselves into a position where they could be accused of nepotism.

I believe that you can rest assured that they want what is best for the company - not their colleagues that are planning to move to Australia.

Blue Ruin

So how many of their colleagues are planning on moving to Australia?

loveflying737

Who knows - I am sure they don't. As many as are prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to emmigrate.

One could ask how many doctors, nurses, electricians, plumbers / English / New Zealanders / Greeks / Chinese are planning on moving to Australia.

The authorities will allow in those they feel can be of value to the country.

neville_nobody

Really?

Not to sure how you figure that out. The Virgin wage would want to go up pretty rapidly if it were to remain 'competitive'.

TAC inop.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but obtaining the right to live and work in Australia isnt such an easy excercise if you are not Australian. For Kiwis and Brits maybe the task is a little easier, but otherwise, its a hell of a paper-chase. Employers must sponsor, proving that the special skills are not avaliable in Oz.
Being an Aussie, married to a Frog, believe me it wasn't so simple to obtain this type of visa for her. Not even Marriage is an 'automatic right' to live and work in Oz.
Thus, to conclude, its my belief that it will have to be crew jobs for Aussies first....unless they base OS of course.

jetblues

"Who knows - I am sure they don't. As many as are prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to emmigrate."


Geez what a crock of s@%t. If it is such a sacrifice to move to Australia and take jobs from all the well qualified and experienced Aussie crews - then don't do it. I think what you really want to say is - what a great opportunity to get me and my mates a widebody gig based in the best country in the world. By all means if you are qualified and we are short on crews come on down, just be honest mate.

It would be nice to see all current VB drivers given the first opportunity on the B777. If you dig a little there is a multitude of experience in the VB ranks.

It never ceases to amaze me what management can get away with under the financial guise of "start up operation seeking competitive edge".

How do you engage your workforce, be honest and offer genuine opportunities. The payback for this in the long run is far greater than any short term gains to save a quick buck now. And that is a fact.

loveflying737

Jetblues - Please read the post again - no-one said it is a sacrifice to move to Australia. We all know what a great country it is. The sacrifice comes in leaving behind everything one has built up, in the case of older guys a lot more than a younger person. You leave behind family, friends and in many cases an established career. It is not something one does just because you know Aussie is a great country, the reasons are far more complex. If you have never had to make the decision it is hard to understand.

To be honest - many people are sceptical about SAs future, they are worried because personal safety is at risk daily, the infrastructure in the country is detriorating rapidly, the value of the currency is volatile. They need to move to a place where they are offered the privilege of a safe environment in which to live, a sound infrastructure and a realitively stable currency.

Australia has an immigration policy and no-one is going to bypass the system. There are jobs available and if they are offered to pilots from other countries because the Australian pilots don't want them for whatever reason, these pilots are probably going to accept them.

The only reason any Australian company would offer the jobs to non Austalian citizens / residents is if there are not enough suitable Australian pilots who apply for the positions. Now if the Australian pilots are loathe to pay the tax required to sustain their beautiful country then that is their prerogative, please don't hack the pilots are willing to accept the salaries offered. From the figures being bandied about the salaries that will be offered by VA do not seem too bad. I have many friends in Australia who live very well on a lot less.

I understand that there is an agreement in place which does give the VB pilots first bite at the apple so that issue can surely be laid to rest.

Bottom line if Australian pilots with the skills won't work for the salaries being offered, the companies will look elsewhere to find the skills required.
I believe that this practice is common in most countries and is followed by most companies.

Its called globalisation mate.