AusFIC - Could THIS be the beginning of the demise of???

[peuce]

I guess my post was directed at ATCs in general (you were the closest at hand), who :

1. Don't appear to have much sympathy for others loosing their jobs around them
2. Mistakingly believe that it will never happen to them
3. Provide the pool of Managers who make these crazy decisions
4. Mistakingly believe that, just because it's not rational, that it won't happen i.e. "we're already overloaded so they won't give us extra work"
5. Did nothing to help stem the slaughter (once again ... "it won't happen to me")

My personal position is that it is phlosophically wrong to add FIS-on-request/Sartime creation,amendment,cancellation to the ATC platform. I want the controllers looking to see who is going to hit me ... not "have I written down that blokes flight plan correctly?".

However, I have a sufficient grasp of reality to accept that just because it's wrong, doesn't mean they won't bring it in.

I envisage, that in the long term, they will relegate the service to seperate consoles, meaning more controllers required ... at twice the salary. But they did get a short term efficiency ... that's what counts.

[tobzalp]

I believe you refered to me on page 2 and above.

Don't appear to have much sympathy for others loosing their jobs around them

My lack stands. These people had a chance 2 EBAs ago to be all under the same umbrella as us but took their 4 percent and voted for themselves and left opeational staff hanging to fight solo. This 15% reduction that gets waved around all the time is not going to come from staff looking at a screen or out a tower window.

[JackoSchitt]

tobzalp,

You obviously have an interesting slant on history. No where near correct - just interesting.

Please, tell me your "slant" on the circumstances where, in one of those EBAs to justify a pay rise, the then existing controllers SOLD OUT future controllers for their own benefit by condemming the new chums to a future of LESS PAY for the same work.

As an aside, I hope that tickets are avbl to watch ATC cope with HF and FIS and Seperation coz its going to be a piss funny show!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Aaahhh Yes!!!!!!!!!
I can see it now.............
ATC'er genuinely busy doing separation 'things'....
RFDS SP IFR genuinely busy flying 'out the back of nowhere in the middle of the night', Ts all over the place, being asked to divert to pick up another urgent patient - said pilot calls on HF for weather info / diversion details on 'new' destination.......and calls ...and calls.....
and calls.......
Said pilot unable to proceed to new 'pick up' as fuel is now getting to decision point, and has to proceed to 'safe' destination...........
Who would want to be the patient?? Or the Pilot??? And WHY would this condition exist at all??????????
BAD MANAGEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ANY solution?????....ANYBODY???

[Shitsu_Tonka]

FSO Griff,
Fair scenario you paint. But the ATC's, pilots and FSO's are not the ones pushing for this position. Worth remembering this when we start attacking each other over past fights with the company over EBA's etc.
Remember, this is being driven by the shiny bums to make more profit for our sole shareholder - the ones who get driven around in the white cars.(Have topically heard this referred to [by those more erudite than myself] as another round of the 'Latham Shuffle'; i.e. Dance of the Conga Line of Suckholes)
In the context of everyone is overpromising to make their masters happy but underdelivering because they don't appreciate the operational realities, or more importantly responsibilites that exist.
Having seen sectors absolutely saturated at times of the day where they have to work at optimum to acquit their existing responsibilities (often on a skeleton roster because of the 'real' staffing levels) I can see that placing the important AUSFIC responsibilites on top of this means that it simply cannot be done. No matter how much one spins the 'work smarter' line, that is simply uninformed rhetoric.
Australian ATC already work beyond the worlds best practice recommended maximum times for safe operations. How much further is this suppose to stretch? Who is going to be responsible when the inevitable happens? Will the shiny bums cry mea culpa? I don't think so.
Copied below is a posting from another website showing the actual numbers that are referred to in one of the previous posts:

You will recall the campaign about Air Traffic Controller numbers and salaries during previous CA negotiations.
So what are the numbers?
The recent Staff Survey revealed some interesting numbers on total staffing [Document not shown due copyright - but shows 1026]
Annual Report 2005 stats:

According to this Airservices commissioned survey and annual report, there are 493 out of a total of 1026 Air Traffic Controllers (including 51 Trainees).
1026? Hmmm. What would the break up of those controllers be do you think?
Only 1026 Operational Controllers out of a staff of 3028 would in itself alone probably surprise those stakeholders we hear so much about. They would probably question what, technical support aside, those other 2/3rds of the total staffing are up to - but of course there are Firies, TFDC, TGO, FIO etc.
But.... I wonder about those 1026 to start with. *
How many are actually operational controllers?
Well, it got me thinking about doing a real survey. I know how many people actually hold an operational line down on my roster, and I am sure you all know the same about your group. *So I have compiled a list of all the groups I can think of below (I will have missed quite a few of course, so help me fill in the gaps).
So, reply to this thread below and tell me how many controllers actually hold an operational line from your group.
I guess this also calls in to question what an operational position is - and that is something you can debate here I guess. *My suggestion would be some that has to keep a traffic separation rating current to fulfill their roster over the course of the year. What do you think?
-------------------------------------------------------
Groups:
Brisbane Centre
MORETON (37)
BYRON (22)
FRASER (22)
TOPS (39)
OUTBACK (20)
REEF (19)
OCEAN (21)
HUNTER (25)
MACQUARIE (15)
CAIRNS TCU (22)
-------------------
Melbourne Centre (correct me on these please)
TULLA (32)
BASS (30)
CANBERRA (23)[Amended:]
WEST PROC & RADAR (43)
BAROSSA ( 16 )
BIGHT ( 16 )
DESERT (27)
CENTRAL (36) ?!
ADELAIDE TCU (19)[Amended:]
PERTH TCU (21)
------------------
SYDNEY APP/DEP (59)
------------------
Towers
CAIRNS ( 18 )
MACKAY (7)
HAMILTON ISLAND (3)
ROCKHAMPTON (8)[Amended:]
MAROOCHYDORE (6)
BRISBANE TWR (25)
ARCHERFELD (10)
GOLD COAST (11)
TAMWORTH (12)
COFFS HARBOUR (4)
SYDNEY TWR (40)
BANKSTOWN/CAMDEN (15)
CANBERRA (14)
ALBURY (5)
MELBOURNE TWR (27)
ESSENDON (10)
MOORABIN (11)
ADELAIDE (20)
PARAFIELD (12)
ALICE SPRINGS (5)
PERTH TWR (19)
JANDAKOT (12)
HOBART (8)
LAUNCESTON (5)
T O T A L *S O *F A R - (871) (Assuming I can add up)

[jumpuFOKKERjump]

I hope that tickets are avbl to watch ATC cope with HF and FIS and Seperation coz its going to be a piss funny show!

Well contact the Public Relations Manager at your neighborhood ATCC (provided you neighborhood is Melbourne or Brisbane) and come along for a laff. Only two rings of the circus are available though, ATC do separation & FIS but not HF. ICAO (bless 'em) frown on ATC playing with HF.

Even if the HF does move into the centres I doubt ATC will be manning the consoles. The BN FIS consoles have large control panels in addition to the woeful standard voice switching panel ATS & FIS use which are not compatible with the visual displays ATC need. I have worked Flight Service with VHF only, HF only & consoles with both, and have worked ATC both procedural & radar. If somebody can make my ATC position more efficient by moving VFR crap/briefing/traffic out of my radio coverage so I can concentrate on where the jets are then they need to be there.

[tobzalp]

Originally Posted by JackoSchitt

tobzalp,
You obviously have an interesting slant on history.

Jacko, I was not refering to Fisos but to the recent broom through the admin people.

[JackoSchitt]

****su,

Very good points and I concur with them all. This whole exercise of the AusFIC review is about some shiny bum pulling out a plum and saying “what a good boy am I” to TFN.

FOKKER,

ICAO can frown all they like but as stated in a previous post, ICAO are guidelines, simply register a difference and move on.

BN FIS are being made redundant - VRs are on the table as of last Friday afternoon. AusFIC services are being moved into/onto ATC and FIS will be fully provided by ATC on area frequencies if you don’t do anything to stop it.

HazIDs and SCARDS and stuff are already done that say it can be so!

Don’t get me wrong here. I’m on your side!

I think the whole review is a fraud of monumental proportions and “the FIS” should continue to be a separate entity with staff truly multi-endorsed across a range of functions (Flightwatch Domestic HF, Flightwatch International HF, Flightwatch VHF, Briefing, NOTAM office, Communications Centre).

Divide it up an spread it between centres, ATCs, FDCs and Techs and you have no economies of scale or flexible staffing options.

Given that BN FIS is gooooone…..you will not have the ability to get VFR crap/briefing/traffic off you frequencies coz there ain’t no where for them to go!

I don’t know what the answer is on this. If ATC don’t want the full FIS workload on their area frequencies, then I guess they had better start speaking out against the proposals proper….but will they???

Tobzalp,

A lot of those people do things for you like arrange your salary sacrifice benefits, pay your salary, maintain facilities that you need to control stuff, plan and fill your rosters, plan and conduct your training, support your ATC functions and ensure that your daily duties complies with legislation and regulation in all its forms etc, etc, etc. Comments like the one you have made are really un-warranted.

[peuce]

The good thing about all this is that there is now no chance of Dick saying that we have/should have a "US-Like" system ... they have ATC separating and FS advising. Once we amalgamate here, any resemblance to the US System is gooonnneee.....

All we need to do now is wait for the fat lady. As JACKO said ... the Safety Assessments are done (that justifies what the "shiny bums" have done .. so they are safe), the redundancies have been dispensed ... it's time to lie down and take it like a man!

P.S. Who participated in all the Safety Assessments and HAZIDs and gave it all the thumbs up? ..... the ATCs. So, I don't know what they have to complain about ....

[Sunfish]

I just keep thinking of those two guys who crashed in the Blue Mountains and lived for about five days before they died. No flight plan, no EPIRB, no Sartime.........No rescue.

When I first went for a ride in a Piper Tri Pacer circa 1970 the rule seemed to be "no sparrow shall fall"...OK, I'm a superannuated old fart.

And of course while the service deteriorates, the costs don't go down do they?

[DirtyPierre]

P.S. Who participated in all the Safety Assessments and HAZIDs and gave it all the thumbs up? ..... the ATCs. So, I don't know what they have to complain about ....

Not true. As one of the technical specialists who was to be involved (but couldn't make it, I was required on the console!), I know that there are no operational ATCs that want or think that ATC sectors performing AUSFIC functions is a good thing.

Also, a HazID will not stop this happening. They'll just put in mitigators to reduce the hazards and get it signed off. Very little the ATCs can do about this.

Stop shooting at ATCs, we don't want the demise of AUSFIC. As a former smelly, I have watched my mates loose their jobs for a number of years. There is nothing I can do to stop this.

[Jamitupyr]

Who are the loser's here??

Originally Posted by peuce

The good thing about all this is that there is now no chance of Dick saying that we have/should have a "US-Like" system ... they have ATC separating and FS advising. Once we amalgamate here, any resemblance to the US System is gooonnneee.....
All we need to do now is wait for the fat lady. As JACKO said ... the Safety Assessments are done (that justifies what the "shiny bums" have done .. so they are safe), the redundancies have been dispensed ... it's time to lie down and take it like a man!
P.S. Who participated in all the Safety Assessments and HAZIDs and gave it all the thumbs up? ..... the ATCs. So, I don't know what they have to complain about ....

Peuce Maaaaatttteeee!

What I don't get here, is - have the Capn Bloggs & Co types woken up to what is about to befall the professional aviator?? Are you RAPAC types listening to this discussion? I think it is about to bite you??

It seems to me that these poor few AusFICers have little voice, nor forum to voice what they say - I suppose they just want to keep providing their service, but the "shiny bums" are doing their level best to stop them (as per Griffo's scenario),

The ATCers are saying "it won't happen" (just like the Class G trial of 1999 or the various NAS attacks)

The only group with real weight in the argument (sic) could be CASA, yet I suspect that they have not even been consulted by the accountant now running Aircircuses on this one.

RAPAC is a forum that is entitled to ask hard questions - about how it will affect their operations on a dark and stormy night.

Come on RAPACs, ask Aircircuses what it is up to here!!

Best - Jamit

[Shitsu_Tonka]

I don't think the ATC'ers are saying it won't happen.

They are saying that the service can not be provided.

You can only squeeze so much out the stone.

The term 'unable' will be transmitted regularly I should imagine.

[peuce]

Originally Posted by DirtyPierre

There is nothing I can do to stop this.

Truer than you think.

I daresay that many in AusFIC, fed up with the continual "ethnic clensing" mentality of Airservices, relish this opportunity to leave with a truckload of extra cash ... especially as many would be approaching retirement age anyway.

Once they depart, there's no going back. They ain't gunna recruit and train for Ausfic.

If they have a sudden change of heart and decide not to close it (unlikely), there will be a revolt from those promised a package and who had started re-organising their lives.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey 'Tonka'........
I do believe I called it as 'BAD MANAGEMENT'........did I not??
I fully realise it is NOT the 'Troops' who are pushing this so called 'efficiency'...
HENCE MY POST!!!!!!



As I see it from the 'outside', the only efficiencies to be gained are to delete the 'jobs for the boys' middle management, to the actual number required to run the show - and for them to be located at the 'coalface', AND hold ratings so as to 'fill in' 'as required' from time to time - NOT to be located remotely somewhere half way between SY & ML - commensurate with the actual number of admin staff to handle the actual admin, and leave the separation / training to the boys and girls who actually do the job!

Further, I feel that the only way this situation could be achieved, is by the INDUSTRY supporting / lobbying for this EFFICIENCY - after all, it IS in THEIR BEST interests and they are the PAYing customers....the FED GOVT being the 'major stakeholder' couldn't care less - we see THAT - and, the 'shinies' are not really going to do the 'right thing'...are they??

So, it all boils down to THE INDUSTRY who provides the FUNDING - do YOU want an efficient ATC / FIS 'system' or not??

Further thoughts???

[DOWNWARDS]

Those of us who want to stay, just want to get on with our jobs, without the axe hanging over our heads all the time! There is no way I want a package (to young). I enjoy my job and do it well! But its hard to keep going when the Boss tells us that no matter how hard we try to provide an efficient and cost effective service, they long term plan is to close down the shop. HF (both Domestic and International) will stay, but eventually will be at stand alone consoles in centre. VHF FIS will go the ATC next year. Briefing will slowly go to FDC over the next year or two and be provided with less staff requiring a longer wait on the phone for pilots. Ways and means will be found to make it less likely for a pilot to call in for a voice briefing or to put in a plan over the phone.

Yes, I will still have a job, but what it will be and where it will be, no one knows. Future career path progression unknown.

The stupid thing is that in the end they will get rid of the AUSFIC, but will have to put on more Flight Data staff and ATC to do the job, we do now already! There is no way that Roper sector will handle the number of VFR Sartimes that are submitted every day out of Gove on a good weather day let alone during bad weather when constant updates to Met reports are requested! More Techs will be required to take on the Communication Centre Role.

Just does not make sense to me at all! And who are “they” anyway?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

AusFIC.....

No responses from anyone connected with The Industry / RAPAC I see.......hhhmmmm....

Ah well!

How many AusFIC VR's being 'taken up'?? Anybody??

ATC staffing still to be reduced?? VR's still on the table here??

So many questions....so few answers!

So few staff....so little services...

Cheers