Australian Pilots
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Relax,
Not sure how you’d have even the faintest idea who I work for (unless woomeri give out isp locations), but I negotiate my T&Cs on a regular basis. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don’t. Not sure what your point is though. To me it simply illustrates the point that individually we have far less success in negotiating with an employer than collectively.
Interesting point about what a Federation negotiated settlement might have done to the airlines. What’s even more interesting is that having “won” the war, the FACT is that EVERY airline involved has since ceased to exist.
Glad to hear your name’s not on the list. (there were only a few hundred returnees anyway). Interesting that you feel the need to tell us though.
You’re right about my endorsement of the right to work for an individually negotiated contract. And I wholeheartedly agree with his right to save his money and use it to buy whatever he needs to get the best job he can. Seems to me that the people who most often complain about others paying for flying experience are those who either had it paid for by someone else (military) or managed to score a cadetship or other similarly assisted entry. And in those cases I believe it’s a form of snobbery akin to the yobbo who proclaims to every one that he’s never had to pay for a girl and never will!
I’m way beyond caring what the small Australian community of backstabbing, white-anting pilots does. I have no intention or faintest desire to ever work in Australia again, but it is a little sad to see what a bunch of weasels they’ve become (but my only real knowledge of the present generation of Aussie pilots is through PPRuNe - perhaps the contributors to PPRuNe are not indicative of the average Australian pilot).
I won’t presume to say I know where you work, but it’s a bit rich to tell us all
“and I wouldn't be prepared to be kicked around for any amount of money; my pride simply wouldn't take it.”
considering that you almost certainly work for a non-australian (most likely asian) carrier on an individual contract. As you suggested regarding the Japanese, these people just do whatever they wish, knowing your only recourse is to leave.
So, is your employer the elusive perfect employer? Never had anyone in any airline do something that really stuck in your throat? Did your pride force you to leave or did you calm down and think of the money?
Enjoy the triple….
Not sure how you’d have even the faintest idea who I work for (unless woomeri give out isp locations), but I negotiate my T&Cs on a regular basis. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don’t. Not sure what your point is though. To me it simply illustrates the point that individually we have far less success in negotiating with an employer than collectively.
Interesting point about what a Federation negotiated settlement might have done to the airlines. What’s even more interesting is that having “won” the war, the FACT is that EVERY airline involved has since ceased to exist.
Glad to hear your name’s not on the list. (there were only a few hundred returnees anyway). Interesting that you feel the need to tell us though.
You’re right about my endorsement of the right to work for an individually negotiated contract. And I wholeheartedly agree with his right to save his money and use it to buy whatever he needs to get the best job he can. Seems to me that the people who most often complain about others paying for flying experience are those who either had it paid for by someone else (military) or managed to score a cadetship or other similarly assisted entry. And in those cases I believe it’s a form of snobbery akin to the yobbo who proclaims to every one that he’s never had to pay for a girl and never will!
I’m way beyond caring what the small Australian community of backstabbing, white-anting pilots does. I have no intention or faintest desire to ever work in Australia again, but it is a little sad to see what a bunch of weasels they’ve become (but my only real knowledge of the present generation of Aussie pilots is through PPRuNe - perhaps the contributors to PPRuNe are not indicative of the average Australian pilot).
I won’t presume to say I know where you work, but it’s a bit rich to tell us all
“and I wouldn't be prepared to be kicked around for any amount of money; my pride simply wouldn't take it.”
considering that you almost certainly work for a non-australian (most likely asian) carrier on an individual contract. As you suggested regarding the Japanese, these people just do whatever they wish, knowing your only recourse is to leave.
So, is your employer the elusive perfect employer? Never had anyone in any airline do something that really stuck in your throat? Did your pride force you to leave or did you calm down and think of the money?
Enjoy the triple….
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Betelgeuse, I agree that a number of airlines involved in the 89 debacle have gone, but that had nothing to do with that event, other than AN used the opportunity to amalgamate East West and close or sell IPEC; I don't remember the details. Australian was bought by QF, and I don't remember the others if in fact there were any others.
You couldn't be even half serious suggesting that those three had anything to do with the brawl.
It is interesting to speculate what might have happened if the AFAP had won its 29+% for no trade offs, but I assure you the cost of pilots would have increased rather than decreased, as it did under the solution that evolved.
Certainly pilots earned twice what they were pre 89, but they worked more than twice as hard for that reward.
However, I have no desire to enter into yet another discourse on the results, advantages and disadvantages of the events of that year.
You seem to be happy where you are, and that is something of a change from several years ago when your posts were full of hatred and 'doing jobs' on pilots who didn't see issues your way. Congratulations on the change.
As for the 'weasels' Australian pilots appear to have become, my experience is that it's no different elsewhere in the world in piloting or any other profession. People will always put themselves first, and if they don't, then they are mugs because they'll sit on the sidelines watching everyone bypass them.
We in Australia only saw that a few years back, but it's existed everywhere else for years, a little like agencies. They have been involved in aviation, in force, for only a short while, but I can remember over forty years ago Drake personnel skimming it off office workers/execs.
You couldn't be even half serious suggesting that those three had anything to do with the brawl.
It is interesting to speculate what might have happened if the AFAP had won its 29+% for no trade offs, but I assure you the cost of pilots would have increased rather than decreased, as it did under the solution that evolved.
Certainly pilots earned twice what they were pre 89, but they worked more than twice as hard for that reward.
However, I have no desire to enter into yet another discourse on the results, advantages and disadvantages of the events of that year.
You seem to be happy where you are, and that is something of a change from several years ago when your posts were full of hatred and 'doing jobs' on pilots who didn't see issues your way. Congratulations on the change.
As for the 'weasels' Australian pilots appear to have become, my experience is that it's no different elsewhere in the world in piloting or any other profession. People will always put themselves first, and if they don't, then they are mugs because they'll sit on the sidelines watching everyone bypass them.
We in Australia only saw that a few years back, but it's existed everywhere else for years, a little like agencies. They have been involved in aviation, in force, for only a short while, but I can remember over forty years ago Drake personnel skimming it off office workers/execs.
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Relax,
I won’t respond to most of your reply because this thread’s not the time and place. But it doesn’t mean I concur. (I’m pleased to see your basic lack of knowledge about the dispute – it means you weren’t directly involved)
But since the title of the thread is “Australian Pilots”, I will comment on the last part of your reply.
The point that so many of the older ones of us have been trying to make is that this situation didn’t exist when pilots in Australia were united. There were always individuals who, given the opportunity, would white ant their peers for personal advantage, but by adhering to established rules of conduct, the whole group was able to obtain fair conditions for all. That situation was destroyed in ’89, leaving everyone to fend for himself, or to compete for positions.
You and I don’t need the protection of a union now because we have the experience to get what we want. But what of the young guys looking to get into this business now? Without a united group they’re at the mercy of the present generation of managers who will certainly put themselves first. Don’t you think they’d be better off if they were all united?
One of the defining points of civilized behavior is that people do not always put themselves first. It’s why charities exist, and even why people give their time and effort to serve on unions and collectives.
I won’t respond to most of your reply because this thread’s not the time and place. But it doesn’t mean I concur. (I’m pleased to see your basic lack of knowledge about the dispute – it means you weren’t directly involved)
But since the title of the thread is “Australian Pilots”, I will comment on the last part of your reply.
“As for the 'weasels' Australian pilots appear to have become, my experience is that it's no different elsewhere in the world in piloting or any other profession.”
You and I don’t need the protection of a union now because we have the experience to get what we want. But what of the young guys looking to get into this business now? Without a united group they’re at the mercy of the present generation of managers who will certainly put themselves first. Don’t you think they’d be better off if they were all united?
“People will always put themselves first, and if they don't, then they are mugs because they'll sit on the sidelines watching everyone bypass them.”
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Betel,
I just want to ask - when you wrote
"I’m pleased to see your basic lack of knowledge about the dispute – it means you weren’t directly involved"
Even if he was fully involved and was in it up to his neck............ what's it got to do with you anyway? What makes it your business?
I just want to ask - when you wrote
"I’m pleased to see your basic lack of knowledge about the dispute – it means you weren’t directly involved"
Even if he was fully involved and was in it up to his neck............ what's it got to do with you anyway? What makes it your business?
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pilots earned twice what they were pre 89, but they worked more than twice as hard for that reward
Until PILOTS write their OWN rosters, they have no control over how hard they work - scheduling does that for us.
Pre '89, overtime started at 65 hours - in other words, the employer could fly the pilot up to 65 hours per month, and still pay him only half the salary of the post '89 pilots.
Post '89, overtime started at 55 hours ($1200 being the guaranteed MINIMUM extra, paid for a callout).
I'd be interested to hear your economic rationalisation of WHY 4 quite finanacially healthy airlines pre-Dispute, now cease to exist.
The companies decided to play hard ball, believing that the pilots would be back at work within 2 weeks.
They were nowhere NEAR fully operational again until January 1990, and completely without revenue of any substance, for almost 3 months.
The aim was to bust the collective bargaining power of the pilots, to be able to put them on INDIVIDUAL contracts, and then tear down their conditions, by initially pitting pilot against pilot, using $$$`s as the carrot.
Were they successful?
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KaptinM, sorry HI'er, this topic has been done to death and you know you are WRONG.
This quote confirms that you are WRONG
"Post '89, overtime started at 55 hours ($1200 being the guaranteed MINIMUM extra, paid for a callout)." It was payment for hours flown only and any number of QF and AN pilots would shoot you down on that, along with a thousand other issues!!
It follows that if you are prepared to make such ridiculous unsubstantiated claims, then possibly none of what you speak is believable.
Your propensity to misrepresent, misquote, and generally fabricate stories to suit your own position is exceeeded only by your stupidity if you actually believe it. Incidentally I know you're not stupid by the content of your posts when you can keep them on the rails.
I'm not bothering to even take it up again let alone get into a slanging match with you. Infinitely more eloquent contributors have done that and taken your tissue thin arguments apart, but you don't accept reason. Sorry, no bites today.
Betelgeuse I'm ecstatic that you are pleased I wasn't involved in the dispute. I'm pleased too; who knows what may have happened had I incurred the wrath of Betelgeuse???
So much pleasure; so much ecstasy, and we haven't even met!!
Over to you Wiz. You may have more patience than I do, and you will require infinitely more.
This quote confirms that you are WRONG
"Post '89, overtime started at 55 hours ($1200 being the guaranteed MINIMUM extra, paid for a callout)." It was payment for hours flown only and any number of QF and AN pilots would shoot you down on that, along with a thousand other issues!!
It follows that if you are prepared to make such ridiculous unsubstantiated claims, then possibly none of what you speak is believable.
Your propensity to misrepresent, misquote, and generally fabricate stories to suit your own position is exceeeded only by your stupidity if you actually believe it. Incidentally I know you're not stupid by the content of your posts when you can keep them on the rails.
I'm not bothering to even take it up again let alone get into a slanging match with you. Infinitely more eloquent contributors have done that and taken your tissue thin arguments apart, but you don't accept reason. Sorry, no bites today.
Betelgeuse I'm ecstatic that you are pleased I wasn't involved in the dispute. I'm pleased too; who knows what may have happened had I incurred the wrath of Betelgeuse???
So much pleasure; so much ecstasy, and we haven't even met!!
Over to you Wiz. You may have more patience than I do, and you will require infinitely more.
Last edited by relax737; 30th Dec 2005 at 23:37.
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Mourgo,
Good luck with the flying. Like any industry, there are good jobs and bad jobs. The good jobs are well worth the sacrifices, and the bad jobs...well... Just an observation that in current times, even the bad jobs are hard to get. You have to crawl, scrape and do a lot of dirty tasks to get to the top of the competition.
Obviously it's just my opinion, but if I was in your position, I'd put my dreams on hold for a while until the industry picks up again. Perhaps I'd work towards a PPL, enjoy the flying, then assess the state of the industry again prior to proceeding to a CPL/ATPL. In this way, you can get an inside feel for the state of the industry without a change-of-career commitment. You might also find that flying privately dovetails nicely with your present skills and aspirations.
The reason I say this is that when you're out of work with a pilot's licence, the costs to remain current and employable can be overwhelming, particularly when an instrument rating is involved. A comfortable bank account can disappear very quickly for a pilot out of a job, which makes the decision to get out or stay in the race a very tough one indeed. It's easy to say that money is not an issue, but it has a habit of becoming one very quickly when you're out of a job.
I think you need to set a few goals for yourself to give yourself the best chance of succeeding and minimising the fallout if things don't work out. It's nice to have the dreams, but assess your progress with a discriminating eye. You need measures and a clear head to be able to accurately assess opportunites when they appear.
Best wishes in whatever field you choose to pursue.
Good luck with the flying. Like any industry, there are good jobs and bad jobs. The good jobs are well worth the sacrifices, and the bad jobs...well... Just an observation that in current times, even the bad jobs are hard to get. You have to crawl, scrape and do a lot of dirty tasks to get to the top of the competition.
Obviously it's just my opinion, but if I was in your position, I'd put my dreams on hold for a while until the industry picks up again. Perhaps I'd work towards a PPL, enjoy the flying, then assess the state of the industry again prior to proceeding to a CPL/ATPL. In this way, you can get an inside feel for the state of the industry without a change-of-career commitment. You might also find that flying privately dovetails nicely with your present skills and aspirations.
The reason I say this is that when you're out of work with a pilot's licence, the costs to remain current and employable can be overwhelming, particularly when an instrument rating is involved. A comfortable bank account can disappear very quickly for a pilot out of a job, which makes the decision to get out or stay in the race a very tough one indeed. It's easy to say that money is not an issue, but it has a habit of becoming one very quickly when you're out of a job.
I think you need to set a few goals for yourself to give yourself the best chance of succeeding and minimising the fallout if things don't work out. It's nice to have the dreams, but assess your progress with a discriminating eye. You need measures and a clear head to be able to accurately assess opportunites when they appear.
Best wishes in whatever field you choose to pursue.
relax737
Personal bias aside, don't you think Betelgeuse has some sound considerations?
But herein may be the problem. Every pilot group in Australia, now has justification in skulduggery towards the other due bitter histories of strikes, perceived inaction and lack of support of one group toward another, undercutting, failed integration or even failing entrance psych testing at QF.
Maybe we should all just give up. Whatever happends or is accepted, is totally justified in the minds of each pilot group.
Personal bias aside, don't you think Betelgeuse has some sound considerations?
But herein may be the problem. Every pilot group in Australia, now has justification in skulduggery towards the other due bitter histories of strikes, perceived inaction and lack of support of one group toward another, undercutting, failed integration or even failing entrance psych testing at QF.
Maybe we should all just give up. Whatever happends or is accepted, is totally justified in the minds of each pilot group.
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You and I don’t need the protection of a union now because we have the experience to get what we want. But what of the young guys looking to get into this business now? Without a united group they’re at the mercy of the present generation of managers who will certainly put themselves first. Don’t you think they’d be better off if they were all united?
With an industry full of altruistic people such as yourself, the wisdom you possess to defeat the present generation of managers can be passed from old to young. Kind of like an Olympic flame of aviation.
That is the idea, isn't it?
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I think the real point to do with unions is this:
People here always say "Stop undercutting and doing things for yourself"..
How does the union really push their point - by striking and seriously harming third parties who have nothing to do with the entire matter. Joining a union is just as "selfish" as doing it alone. You just cover it with "I'm helping others too". No - you are doing it because you think the "union" seems like it has a better chance of achieving your goals. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think that being a member of a union is "selfless" - talk to the companies that went out of business during the 89 strike.
Fair enough if you want to join a union but admit it's because you think it will get you what you want. Not because of some altruistic idea that you are "Helping conditions for the young fella's coming through".
People here always say "Stop undercutting and doing things for yourself"..
How does the union really push their point - by striking and seriously harming third parties who have nothing to do with the entire matter. Joining a union is just as "selfish" as doing it alone. You just cover it with "I'm helping others too". No - you are doing it because you think the "union" seems like it has a better chance of achieving your goals. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think that being a member of a union is "selfless" - talk to the companies that went out of business during the 89 strike.
Fair enough if you want to join a union but admit it's because you think it will get you what you want. Not because of some altruistic idea that you are "Helping conditions for the young fella's coming through".
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Come off it PAF, don't you remember the great Doctors' Strike of '95; or the time all the Lawyers in Australia walked off the job; surely you are familiar with how most Engineering in Australia is performed by non unionists? Don't see their pay and conditions going down 
I'm sticking with my faith in humanity and continue to believe that people like HI'er and Betelgeuse are out there trying to make a difference for the little guy.
Shame on you and your shameless ways
I'm sticking with my faith in humanity and continue to believe that people like HI'er and Betelgeuse are out there trying to make a difference for the little guy.
Shame on you and your shameless ways
Last edited by Woomera; 30th Dec 2005 at 21:31.
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gnadenburg, it's an honourable thought, but it's not reality, and it never has been.
Let's go back to that year, and once again, I have no desire to open a slanging match over what happened then, but it's a great study in human nature.
The pilots didn't stick together then, despite a segment of the pilot community pushing the line that they did, and the very people advocating a united approach, the most senior, were off overseas within a week, announcing that when the issue was resolved they'd be back to take their jobs.
How could they ever expect that the junior guys would sit back and watch their jobs disappear, because from day 1 it was obvious that not everybody would get a job in the washup.
They saw those going overseas and made the call that if they weren't here, then their jobs wouldn't be filled, not everybody would get back, so make a move.
You can spam the scenario up however you like, but the cold, hard facts are that there was NOT unity, in spite of protestations
to the contrary.
Let me say it again; aviation is NO different from any other industry. People look after themselves first, and if that appears to fit with the union's line, then OK, but if not, they'll do it anyway. They will look after themselves first, and it can be no other way, because if they don't, then they'll sit on the sidelines as a spectator rather than be on the field as a competitor.
Pilots who held themselves out to be stalwarts of the union went overseas willingly and signed individual contracts, the conditions therein over which they had avbsolutely no control. What does that tell me about those people? They're bl00dy hypocrites, pushing a line on others and doing quite the opposite themselves.
Regrettably I have had to use the events of that year to make a point. Please let's not start a punch up over it, and please HI'er if you're going to quote ridiculous payrates etc., in an attempt to sway opinion your way, get a hold of the facts before doing so because you do no more than make youself look foolish when you quote garbage.
Let's go back to that year, and once again, I have no desire to open a slanging match over what happened then, but it's a great study in human nature.
The pilots didn't stick together then, despite a segment of the pilot community pushing the line that they did, and the very people advocating a united approach, the most senior, were off overseas within a week, announcing that when the issue was resolved they'd be back to take their jobs.
How could they ever expect that the junior guys would sit back and watch their jobs disappear, because from day 1 it was obvious that not everybody would get a job in the washup.
They saw those going overseas and made the call that if they weren't here, then their jobs wouldn't be filled, not everybody would get back, so make a move.
You can spam the scenario up however you like, but the cold, hard facts are that there was NOT unity, in spite of protestations
to the contrary.
Let me say it again; aviation is NO different from any other industry. People look after themselves first, and if that appears to fit with the union's line, then OK, but if not, they'll do it anyway. They will look after themselves first, and it can be no other way, because if they don't, then they'll sit on the sidelines as a spectator rather than be on the field as a competitor.
Pilots who held themselves out to be stalwarts of the union went overseas willingly and signed individual contracts, the conditions therein over which they had avbsolutely no control. What does that tell me about those people? They're bl00dy hypocrites, pushing a line on others and doing quite the opposite themselves.
Regrettably I have had to use the events of that year to make a point. Please let's not start a punch up over it, and please HI'er if you're going to quote ridiculous payrates etc., in an attempt to sway opinion your way, get a hold of the facts before doing so because you do no more than make youself look foolish when you quote garbage.
Last edited by relax737; 31st Dec 2005 at 00:20.
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You will soon find that in the obssesive pursuit of your goal you will develope an acute and shocking case of tunnel vision whereby you fail to notice your loss of grace and the onset of a debilitating attitude which would see you floundering in most other industries. Usually the realisation that the success you have craved in aviation came at the cost of all your old friends, your youth and your spouse and children, it will be too late and all you will be able to do is pass on your resentment to the next generation of pilots you train.
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mattyj,
None of the above.
Boney, looks like he has and withdrawn his post.
Be assured Mourgo, I am a pilot and a keen observer of human nature. I should never be surprised by human behaviour, but still am from time to time.
I have no resentment toward others in the industry, nor the way it has gone, because I'm a realist. The industrial scene is changing whether we like it or not, and we are powerless to alter its course.
The only thing we have at our disposal is withdrawal of services, but with pilots queueing up around the building for our jobs, you cop it or get out. There is a shortage, compared with a couple of years ago, but airlines are still getting starters, so they perceive no problem, or a minor one at worst.
PAF makes a valid point; if you think managers are unjustly being paid more than they are worth, become a manager. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
It's not unlike beefing abuot the politicians' perks; stand for election and become a politician and jump on a carriage of the gravy train, but don't whinge about it until you've attempted to effect change, because all you do is show a lack of credibility.
None of the above.
Boney, looks like he has and withdrawn his post.
Be assured Mourgo, I am a pilot and a keen observer of human nature. I should never be surprised by human behaviour, but still am from time to time.
I have no resentment toward others in the industry, nor the way it has gone, because I'm a realist. The industrial scene is changing whether we like it or not, and we are powerless to alter its course.
The only thing we have at our disposal is withdrawal of services, but with pilots queueing up around the building for our jobs, you cop it or get out. There is a shortage, compared with a couple of years ago, but airlines are still getting starters, so they perceive no problem, or a minor one at worst.
PAF makes a valid point; if you think managers are unjustly being paid more than they are worth, become a manager. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
It's not unlike beefing abuot the politicians' perks; stand for election and become a politician and jump on a carriage of the gravy train, but don't whinge about it until you've attempted to effect change, because all you do is show a lack of credibility.
Last edited by relax737; 31st Dec 2005 at 00:03.
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went overseas willingly and signed individual contracts, the conditions therein over which they had avbsolutely no control.
For someone who denies being a scab, you certainly spend an ample amount of time defending them.
I am a pilot and a keen observer of human nature. I should never be surprised by human behaviour
I dont think any of you guys are actually pilots. Just enthusiasts....What makes you think that?
