Australian Pilots
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Insecurity, or fanning the flames, had you always adding how better off you would be outside of professional aviation when you left the services
This is not anything to do with skills sets
In the civilian world at the moment, you have to bite, scratch and pull hair to maintain conditions
This statement will inevitably result in you asking "What would you know blah blah - You know nothing about it". Well, I'll answer that in advanced for you. How does drawing a salary from an airline make you any more educated in aviation industrial relations and the economic factors involved than someone who is trained in economics at a university? I'd say it doesn't. The simple fact that you have a boss or manager you don't like, and read the left wing leanings posted on your pilot union website doesn't make you educated on the topic. It serves only to make you biased and lean toward your own self interest.
Don't you dare play the victim
Oh, why would I want to become a teacher? Education is useless according to you lot.
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Mourgo, mate, if your original question was serious, here is my serious answer.
DON'T DO IT.
Read the accurate posts about costs, low or no pay, low chances of work with good conditions etc. Save yourself while you can, back away slowly then RUN, don't look back and don't tell anyone you even thought of being a pilot. Its all a bad dream!
DON'T DO IT.
Read the accurate posts about costs, low or no pay, low chances of work with good conditions etc. Save yourself while you can, back away slowly then RUN, don't look back and don't tell anyone you even thought of being a pilot. Its all a bad dream!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Mourgo,
You can pretty much forget most of the dribble that you read on this thread and other D&G pilot career based threads and put it down to the fact that lots of pilots out there are extremely bitter that their career plans never worked out .....or worked out but still fell way short of their misguided expectations.
if you are cashed up, it will help you out with getting through your training. There is a trend of reduced wages in the better paid jobs but it's still possible to make some decent money and have a good time as well. If you are really focused more on the money side of things then there are probably better careers out there but if you are happy to make a comfortable wage and enjoy your job then you should start lessons and enjoy what lies ahead. Cloud Cutter summed it up very well in his earlier post.
Just be prepared to hear lots more from the "poor bugger me" peanut gallery as you go through your entire flying career.
Good luck.
You can pretty much forget most of the dribble that you read on this thread and other D&G pilot career based threads and put it down to the fact that lots of pilots out there are extremely bitter that their career plans never worked out .....or worked out but still fell way short of their misguided expectations.
if you are cashed up, it will help you out with getting through your training. There is a trend of reduced wages in the better paid jobs but it's still possible to make some decent money and have a good time as well. If you are really focused more on the money side of things then there are probably better careers out there but if you are happy to make a comfortable wage and enjoy your job then you should start lessons and enjoy what lies ahead. Cloud Cutter summed it up very well in his earlier post.
Just be prepared to hear lots more from the "poor bugger me" peanut gallery as you go through your entire flying career.
Good luck.
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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All you pilots just complain and complain. I'd hate to turn out like that. There's starving people in this world and we worry about money? How bad can it be? A newby with an airline id guess you would get about 70-100k AUD a year. I have a passion for the industry so money will not motivate me at all.
Like i said i have enough income to stay home and do nothing for the next 3 years and live like a king. I've had a taste of flying in a real simulator and i love it.
Like i said i have enough income to stay home and do nothing for the next 3 years and live like a king. I've had a taste of flying in a real simulator and i love it.
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Australian Pilots
I think you should really research this very carefully. Its all very well to say you want to fly. However you should remember this, its all about supply and demand. Too many pilots and conditions deteriorate. At present Australian universities push out about 180 pilots a year, in addition TAFE produce a similar amount, then you have the flying schools peddling their wares.
Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar would not not employ 180 pilots between them annualy. Which means the chance you getting into the airlines in Oz is remote. Remember there is a large number of Pilots with degrees out there, can you compete with them? Im not saying you need a degree to be a good pilot. However if an airline has a choice between a degree holder & a non degree holder all things beeing equal who will they take?
So the option is GA. A Dash8 Capt. is on about $80,000PA sounds good but it takes about 10 years to get there. During the years to get there your treated and paid badly and thats putting it nicely. If you have a UK passport a degree and $70,000 to get you started perhaps you should then CONSIDER it.
Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar would not not employ 180 pilots between them annualy. Which means the chance you getting into the airlines in Oz is remote. Remember there is a large number of Pilots with degrees out there, can you compete with them? Im not saying you need a degree to be a good pilot. However if an airline has a choice between a degree holder & a non degree holder all things beeing equal who will they take?
So the option is GA. A Dash8 Capt. is on about $80,000PA sounds good but it takes about 10 years to get there. During the years to get there your treated and paid badly and thats putting it nicely. If you have a UK passport a degree and $70,000 to get you started perhaps you should then CONSIDER it.
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Bollocks to you mourgo.
This is a job for me. It pays the bills, keeps a roof over my families head, clothes on their backs and food in their stomachs.
And if you think we're all bitching because we are 'pilots' it just shows what an ignoramus you are. When the working conditions of any group are eroded people get upset.
You stay at home in your poxy house for 3yrs. Hope the roof falls in
Schmuk!!!
This is a job for me. It pays the bills, keeps a roof over my families head, clothes on their backs and food in their stomachs.
And if you think we're all bitching because we are 'pilots' it just shows what an ignoramus you are. When the working conditions of any group are eroded people get upset.
You stay at home in your poxy house for 3yrs. Hope the roof falls in
Schmuk!!!
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Now we have eagle 86 attempting to rewrite history.
The bodgie and Abeles didn't start the rot, the CP of Virgin Blue did.
He's the one who downgraded the terms and conditions for recruits to airline flying; buy your own endorsement, pay scales about 60% of the other operator (forget it HI'er, VB operated 300's first off, not NG's, same as Qf were flying), buy your own meals, etc.
I might add the CP of VB took out somewhere between 12 and 18 million in shares for his "trouble".
mourgo, don't take too much notice of types like defenstrator, he's obviously bitter about not achieving his aims and thinks that because you're OK financially he should be also.
Frozo, I like your style. You're happy with your job, pay, etc. Stick with it. Airline flying isn't everything it's cracked up to be.
I started out in military flying, and I liked it too. Not much money, but a pretty exciting life most of the time. Didn't like being the cinema officer much though.
The bodgie and Abeles didn't start the rot, the CP of Virgin Blue did.
He's the one who downgraded the terms and conditions for recruits to airline flying; buy your own endorsement, pay scales about 60% of the other operator (forget it HI'er, VB operated 300's first off, not NG's, same as Qf were flying), buy your own meals, etc.
I might add the CP of VB took out somewhere between 12 and 18 million in shares for his "trouble".
mourgo, don't take too much notice of types like defenstrator, he's obviously bitter about not achieving his aims and thinks that because you're OK financially he should be also.
Frozo, I like your style. You're happy with your job, pay, etc. Stick with it. Airline flying isn't everything it's cracked up to be.
I started out in military flying, and I liked it too. Not much money, but a pretty exciting life most of the time. Didn't like being the cinema officer much though.
Last edited by relax737; 26th Dec 2005 at 04:33.
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R737
So that disastrous piece of industrial action had no effect on pilot's pay and conditions - I have a lot of good mates who were in the industry at that time who would argue differently.
GAGS
E86
So that disastrous piece of industrial action had no effect on pilot's pay and conditions - I have a lot of good mates who were in the industry at that time who would argue differently.
GAGS
E86
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R737,
I may have this wrong but the implication that 'money is not a problem' leads me to summise that this fellow may well attempt to enter this industry throwing money at people to get a few hours then buy his jet job while the rest of the battlers do the hard yards. All the while accepting crap terms and conditions. I think it's appalling. Personally I had a very fortunate run through GA and the regionals to get to where I am now. But at the end of the day bills, mortgages etc prevail and if my own T and C's are sliding because of the likes of mourgo accepting less than his worth because 'money is not an issue', then I will be bitter. I'm pretty sure your tune would change if he undercut you. And just for the record I applaud anyone that is truly happy in their job. Satisfaction in the workplace is becoming a bit of a rare commodity these days.
I may have this wrong but the implication that 'money is not a problem' leads me to summise that this fellow may well attempt to enter this industry throwing money at people to get a few hours then buy his jet job while the rest of the battlers do the hard yards. All the while accepting crap terms and conditions. I think it's appalling. Personally I had a very fortunate run through GA and the regionals to get to where I am now. But at the end of the day bills, mortgages etc prevail and if my own T and C's are sliding because of the likes of mourgo accepting less than his worth because 'money is not an issue', then I will be bitter. I'm pretty sure your tune would change if he undercut you. And just for the record I applaud anyone that is truly happy in their job. Satisfaction in the workplace is becoming a bit of a rare commodity these days.
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You think money falls out of trees?
I have been working my ass off since i was 15. Did my degree and now have a high paying job. Yes I may have enough funds to get me through but like everyone else I have worked my ass off to get this backing behind me.
Think twice before you start critisizing me. If money is going to get me in this industry then so be it. I deserve it.
I have been working my ass off since i was 15. Did my degree and now have a high paying job. Yes I may have enough funds to get me through but like everyone else I have worked my ass off to get this backing behind me.
Think twice before you start critisizing me. If money is going to get me in this industry then so be it. I deserve it.
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Hear, Hear!
Well done that man there!
Fancy someone telling you don't take a job, because it might affect me, me and me!
I know who I think the selfish bugger is!
Next they'll be saying Virgin Blue and Ozjet don't deserve to exist because they have "undercut" QANTAS - which did the hard yards.
Well done that man there!
Fancy someone telling you don't take a job, because it might affect me, me and me!
I know who I think the selfish bugger is!
Next they'll be saying Virgin Blue and Ozjet don't deserve to exist because they have "undercut" QANTAS - which did the hard yards.
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 26th Dec 2005 at 08:11.
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eagle you're quite right. The events of that year did have an effect; the salary of a 727/737/(and A320 if you were AN)Capt went fropm 120K pa to 250K pa. If your good mates tell you differently they are lying. It may have impacted on their salaries because they were unemployed/
Like I said earlier, you'd better go after everybody in VB because they were the start of the rot, the very ones who supposedly wouldn't go back because of some perceived loyalty to their mates instead of their families and some ridiculous union ideal. They are the ones who came back to Oz and worked for half what the QF guys were flying the same aircraft type
Dixon is now using the VB salaries to screw the pilots in his company, and who wouldn't if they were a businessman.
I say it again; the CP grew fat by screwing them down on T & C's. Simple as that.
Mourgo, go for it. The same guys who came back to VB to work for substandard salaries at that time will condemn you, but they are the worst. F&^%$#& hypocrites!. You work for whatever you want, and it's nobody's business but yours.
Like I said earlier, you'd better go after everybody in VB because they were the start of the rot, the very ones who supposedly wouldn't go back because of some perceived loyalty to their mates instead of their families and some ridiculous union ideal. They are the ones who came back to Oz and worked for half what the QF guys were flying the same aircraft type
Dixon is now using the VB salaries to screw the pilots in his company, and who wouldn't if they were a businessman.
I say it again; the CP grew fat by screwing them down on T & C's. Simple as that.
Mourgo, go for it. The same guys who came back to VB to work for substandard salaries at that time will condemn you, but they are the worst. F&^%$#& hypocrites!. You work for whatever you want, and it's nobody's business but yours.
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Thanks frozo.
These same self righteous pricks working overseas have sweet f#$k all say in their pay and conditions but they work for these agencies/companies anyway suffering getting the $hit kicked out of them, and then attempt to tell pilots in Australia how they should conduct their lives.
These same pilots then came back and took jobs in VB for salaries way below the going rate.
Bull$hit!!.
These same self righteous pricks working overseas have sweet f#$k all say in their pay and conditions but they work for these agencies/companies anyway suffering getting the $hit kicked out of them, and then attempt to tell pilots in Australia how they should conduct their lives.
These same pilots then came back and took jobs in VB for salaries way below the going rate.
Bull$hit!!.
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Wow relax – you sure have a chip on your shoulder fella! What happened – DJ knock you back? Had lots of trouble getting a job after you bled Ansett dry? Couldn’t understand why no one would employ you?
So let’s see now…If every early virgin driver had said “Nah – gimme the $250k that our former friends in Ansett are making, Dicky would have eventually said – aw, awrite, it’s a deal then.” And all pilots in Australia would have lived happily ever after.
Can’t you see it? YOU and your hero mates KILLED your own airline through your own greed!
QF salaries are simply unsustainable in today’s climate. Just look at the number of pilots clamoring for any airline job in Australia.
The way of the future in Australia is average pay and long hours, after paying for your own qualifications. Why should pilots be different from any other semi-skilled vocation?
BTW relax – I work overseas and I DO have a BIG say in my pay and conditions. I’m very happy with what I get. Occasionally I get kicked around, but I make a sh1tload of cash for doing so. And when I’ve decided to move on, I’ve never had to worry about whether the next airline I might like to apply to will find my name on a list…..
Relax mate.
So let’s see now…If every early virgin driver had said “Nah – gimme the $250k that our former friends in Ansett are making, Dicky would have eventually said – aw, awrite, it’s a deal then.” And all pilots in Australia would have lived happily ever after.
Can’t you see it? YOU and your hero mates KILLED your own airline through your own greed!
QF salaries are simply unsustainable in today’s climate. Just look at the number of pilots clamoring for any airline job in Australia.
The way of the future in Australia is average pay and long hours, after paying for your own qualifications. Why should pilots be different from any other semi-skilled vocation?
BTW relax – I work overseas and I DO have a BIG say in my pay and conditions. I’m very happy with what I get. Occasionally I get kicked around, but I make a sh1tload of cash for doing so. And when I’ve decided to move on, I’ve never had to worry about whether the next airline I might like to apply to will find my name on a list…..
Relax mate.
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Betelgeuse, good to see you back. Been hiding somewhere in the galaxy??
Inanswer to para 1, none of those apply.
The salaries paid to AN and QF post 89 were OFFERED, and the cost per hour was less than pre 89. That's been done to death on these forums. If the 29+% had been granted withno trade offs, thehourly rate would have sky rocketed, and it may well have killed the airlines off, bothof them.
I think the salaries paid by QF are sustainable, but why would Dixon do so when he can, and will, get them back to VB rates.
If you work for who I believe you do, then you have NO say in your T&C's, and I wouldn't be prepared to be kicked around for any amount of money; my pride simply wouldn't take it. You wouldn't have taken it at AN, so why now??
As for worrying about names on lists, mine isn't on any, but that's finished a long time ago except for a couple of enclaves where the effigy burning still goes on every anniversary.
I have a mate, whose name is on the list, flying for Skymark, and the wan?ers there decreed long ago that no $kabs would ever work there. The Japs don't ake $hite from their contractors it seems.
I agree that the future in Oz is harder work for less money and not just for pilots....unfortunately if you're an employee.
So I take it that you endorse my comment that a person can work for whatever he chooses and it's no body else's business?? And Mourgo can work for less than VB pilots, or even less than a GA pilot, if he chooses after buying whatever he can afford?? Good lad!
I run a smallbusiness (26 employees) and I'd be crazy not to take advantage of the new workplace legislation which makes it tougher for employees but better for employers.
As for your last para, I'm relaaaaaxed, and about to go 777!!!
Inanswer to para 1, none of those apply.
The salaries paid to AN and QF post 89 were OFFERED, and the cost per hour was less than pre 89. That's been done to death on these forums. If the 29+% had been granted withno trade offs, thehourly rate would have sky rocketed, and it may well have killed the airlines off, bothof them.
I think the salaries paid by QF are sustainable, but why would Dixon do so when he can, and will, get them back to VB rates.
If you work for who I believe you do, then you have NO say in your T&C's, and I wouldn't be prepared to be kicked around for any amount of money; my pride simply wouldn't take it. You wouldn't have taken it at AN, so why now??
As for worrying about names on lists, mine isn't on any, but that's finished a long time ago except for a couple of enclaves where the effigy burning still goes on every anniversary.
I have a mate, whose name is on the list, flying for Skymark, and the wan?ers there decreed long ago that no $kabs would ever work there. The Japs don't ake $hite from their contractors it seems.
I agree that the future in Oz is harder work for less money and not just for pilots....unfortunately if you're an employee.
So I take it that you endorse my comment that a person can work for whatever he chooses and it's no body else's business?? And Mourgo can work for less than VB pilots, or even less than a GA pilot, if he chooses after buying whatever he can afford?? Good lad!
I run a smallbusiness (26 employees) and I'd be crazy not to take advantage of the new workplace legislation which makes it tougher for employees but better for employers.
As for your last para, I'm relaaaaaxed, and about to go 777!!!
Last edited by relax737; 26th Dec 2005 at 20:27.
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mourgo, regardless of how much money you have, there is no guarantee of ANY job for you in aviation, after completing your training, and various ratings.
You might be one of the lucky ones who scores a job fairly quickly, or you might need that extra cash to support yourself during your search.
Job opportunities are increasing, and worldwide the number of EXPERIENCED pilots available is rapidly drying up, which means positions at the bottom end of the employment market will improve as well.
Before committing yourself with any flight training organisation, make sure your medical is done to ATPL standard by a CASA approved Doctor (a DAME - the list of DAMEs is available on the internet here search for a DAME .....no, it's not a list of hookers!).
Flying is rewarding, inasfar as job satisfaction goes, however the financial return on your outlay is not guaranteed, and is far less than that which you would receive if you were to spend it on doing (say) a Law degree.
To get your CPL as quickly as possible, you should undertake the course full time, which might allow you - at very best - to do a couple (as in 2) of days per week part time work.
Go for it, but just remember, there is NO guarantee of work for you at the end of the never ending road.
(You'll understand the "never ending road" bit after you've completed your CPL).
You might be one of the lucky ones who scores a job fairly quickly, or you might need that extra cash to support yourself during your search.
Job opportunities are increasing, and worldwide the number of EXPERIENCED pilots available is rapidly drying up, which means positions at the bottom end of the employment market will improve as well.
Before committing yourself with any flight training organisation, make sure your medical is done to ATPL standard by a CASA approved Doctor (a DAME - the list of DAMEs is available on the internet here search for a DAME .....no, it's not a list of hookers!).
Flying is rewarding, inasfar as job satisfaction goes, however the financial return on your outlay is not guaranteed, and is far less than that which you would receive if you were to spend it on doing (say) a Law degree.
To get your CPL as quickly as possible, you should undertake the course full time, which might allow you - at very best - to do a couple (as in 2) of days per week part time work.
Go for it, but just remember, there is NO guarantee of work for you at the end of the never ending road.
(You'll understand the "never ending road" bit after you've completed your CPL).
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HI'er says it all
You cant win the lottery if you dont have a ticket.
PS if you do I hope it is as good to you as it was to me.
Go for it, but just remember, there is NO guarantee of work for you at the end of the never ending road
PS if you do I hope it is as good to you as it was to me.
Frozo
A little difficult to offer rebuttal until I understand your concept of socialist or left wing influenced pilot associations.
Probably just have to accept we are poles apart.
By the way, do you have self-sealing fuel tanks, armoured seats and a good loss of licence/life insurance plan for missions in Iraq? If not, perhaps you need a pilot association or union of sorts.
A little difficult to offer rebuttal until I understand your concept of socialist or left wing influenced pilot associations.
Probably just have to accept we are poles apart.
By the way, do you have self-sealing fuel tanks, armoured seats and a good loss of licence/life insurance plan for missions in Iraq? If not, perhaps you need a pilot association or union of sorts.