NAC pilots threatened with sack...PART 2
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Anybody who signs that desrves everything they are or are not going to get so to speak.
Woomera has provided some very sage advice on where to go to get the right advice about these matters.
Pilots are generally too smart by a half so I wont be surprised if most don't take it.
ginjockey mentions insurance; and so he should.
I know not how it works in the NT, but Workers Compensation where I come from is usually the contractors responsibility and companies employing them require evidence of it before they will be employed as such.
Taking that to its logical extension I would be amazed if ANY company employing your employer would allow you or any of YOUR employers on their site or to undertake work for them unless you could show written evidence of it or some other cover. Capische.
Workers Compensation Insurance is not cheap or easy to get and in any event requires of the contractor a very high standard of duty of care. This quite naturally flows into the workplace provided by the employer and in which the contractor is required to operate.
If you think this is opens up a very big can of worms, believe it.
And we wont even go near the professional and personal liabilities working as a contractor as distinct from an employee brings.
Try paying off a multimillion claim for the rest of your life on those paltry wages.
What it all means is, that if you were charging for your service as a contractor the above rates are probably around less than half what they should be to compensate for the "risk" and "down time" between "paying jobs".
Why do you think the plumber charges his men out at $60-80 per hour or the auto maintenance shop similar or more.
Nah the only person who is "winning" here is not the pilots.
This whole exercise merely
shifts the "compulsory costs" of these items from the employer to the employee by changing his name to "contractor".
And then of course the ATO will tax you as an employee if more than 80% of that income is earned with the same employer.
Neither does this mean that there cannot be a form of employment that works for both, but I don't see it here.
But dont listen to me I am not an expert, go tell it to the people Woomera has pointed you at.
Oh and BTW the "It wont happen to me" sounds pretty hollow, when you become disabled, unemployable or pay your hospital bills.
Workplace conditions for employees have been hard fought for, you do the math.
Simply, do what you do best and are trained to do, fly an aircraft, leave ALL of the rest to the professionals, the, AFAP, your local IRC expert and or the places pointed out by Woomera, you do not have the training, expertise or the financial capacity to pay for the ramifications of screwing it up.
The pilots who "take it" for their own expedience and "hours" deserve the same disapprobation reserved for scabs as well as free entry into the Annual "Darwin" (as in Charles) awards. Quite appropriate really.
Woomera has provided some very sage advice on where to go to get the right advice about these matters.
Pilots are generally too smart by a half so I wont be surprised if most don't take it.
ginjockey mentions insurance; and so he should.
I know not how it works in the NT, but Workers Compensation where I come from is usually the contractors responsibility and companies employing them require evidence of it before they will be employed as such.
Taking that to its logical extension I would be amazed if ANY company employing your employer would allow you or any of YOUR employers on their site or to undertake work for them unless you could show written evidence of it or some other cover. Capische.
Workers Compensation Insurance is not cheap or easy to get and in any event requires of the contractor a very high standard of duty of care. This quite naturally flows into the workplace provided by the employer and in which the contractor is required to operate.
If you think this is opens up a very big can of worms, believe it.
And we wont even go near the professional and personal liabilities working as a contractor as distinct from an employee brings.
Try paying off a multimillion claim for the rest of your life on those paltry wages. What it all means is, that if you were charging for your service as a contractor the above rates are probably around less than half what they should be to compensate for the "risk" and "down time" between "paying jobs".
Why do you think the plumber charges his men out at $60-80 per hour or the auto maintenance shop similar or more.
Nah the only person who is "winning" here is not the pilots.
This whole exercise merely
shifts the "compulsory costs" of these items from the employer to the employee by changing his name to "contractor".And then of course the ATO will tax you as an employee if more than 80% of that income is earned with the same employer.
Neither does this mean that there cannot be a form of employment that works for both, but I don't see it here.
But dont listen to me I am not an expert, go tell it to the people Woomera has pointed you at.
Oh and BTW the "It wont happen to me" sounds pretty hollow, when you become disabled, unemployable or pay your hospital bills.
Workplace conditions for employees have been hard fought for, you do the math.
Simply, do what you do best and are trained to do, fly an aircraft, leave ALL of the rest to the professionals, the, AFAP, your local IRC expert and or the places pointed out by Woomera, you do not have the training, expertise or the financial capacity to pay for the ramifications of screwing it up.
The pilots who "take it" for their own expedience and "hours" deserve the same disapprobation reserved for scabs as well as free entry into the Annual "Darwin" (as in Charles) awards. Quite appropriate really.
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Interested KIWI
As a bi standing who only got paid $100 before tax for a 13 hour duty.............I feel for you all.
BUT
I was wondering what do these guys get currently because $43K is a hell of alot more than you will ever see in NZ on a Turbine let alone on PA31.
splat
BUT
I was wondering what do these guys get currently because $43K is a hell of alot more than you will ever see in NZ on a Turbine let alone on PA31.
splat
splat,
While it seems like $43,000 on the surface, i think you'll find the true amount is much less once things like workers comp are factored in.
Off the top of my head, the REAL, RIDGY-DIDGE NO BULLSH1T full-time IFR award wage for a PA31 or similar driver is in the order of $38000.
Anyway, does it really matter what you guys get in NZ? This is Darwin, NT, Australia we are talking about.
I do feel for you guys, but compared to Australia, the standard of living and wages enjoyed in your country are way below ours. Why do you think so many of you buggers inhabit our great land?
TL
While it seems like $43,000 on the surface, i think you'll find the true amount is much less once things like workers comp are factored in.
Off the top of my head, the REAL, RIDGY-DIDGE NO BULLSH1T full-time IFR award wage for a PA31 or similar driver is in the order of $38000.
Anyway, does it really matter what you guys get in NZ? This is Darwin, NT, Australia we are talking about.
I do feel for you guys, but compared to Australia, the standard of living and wages enjoyed in your country are way below ours. Why do you think so many of you buggers inhabit our great land?
TL
Last edited by Transition Layer; 23rd Aug 2004 at 10:15.
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T.L.
It does kind of matter what Pilot's earn in NZ.....
Nothing stops a New Zealand Pilot coming over and signing a 'contract' and taking on a position at ??? if no one else will. From what I understand, the pay/conditions in NZ G.A. are worse than in OZ.
...and at other places as well. There are enough Pilots in Australia accepting less than what the above contract offers. There are enough unemployed Pilots out there as well that will sign up (regretably).
As per my previous post: Has there been enough Pilots walk out or not sign contracts to restrict NAC's operation?.
This is the measure if the contract will be accepted or not.
If the fleet stays gounded due to lack of drivers then the contract idea will fizzle out.
The owners of NAC will not allow their investment to stay on the ground for long.
So, can anyone in DN reply?., Are they flying 100% right now or not?.
It does kind of matter what Pilot's earn in NZ.....
Nothing stops a New Zealand Pilot coming over and signing a 'contract' and taking on a position at ??? if no one else will. From what I understand, the pay/conditions in NZ G.A. are worse than in OZ.
...and at other places as well. There are enough Pilots in Australia accepting less than what the above contract offers. There are enough unemployed Pilots out there as well that will sign up (regretably).
As per my previous post: Has there been enough Pilots walk out or not sign contracts to restrict NAC's operation?.
This is the measure if the contract will be accepted or not.
If the fleet stays gounded due to lack of drivers then the contract idea will fizzle out.
The owners of NAC will not allow their investment to stay on the ground for long.
So, can anyone in DN reply?., Are they flying 100% right now or not?.
R-F-G,
We have locked horns a couple of times on this matter but I think at the end of the day we are batting for the same team.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that there is nothing stopping a Kiwi coming over and accepting these conditions or any other position in GA that offers sub-award wages. I guess the point I was trying to make is that any Kiwi coming over here shouldn't settle for second best, just because the conditions they may have left behind in NZ GA are far worse.
Cheers,
TL
We have locked horns a couple of times on this matter but I think at the end of the day we are batting for the same team.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that there is nothing stopping a Kiwi coming over and accepting these conditions or any other position in GA that offers sub-award wages. I guess the point I was trying to make is that any Kiwi coming over here shouldn't settle for second best, just because the conditions they may have left behind in NZ GA are far worse.
Cheers,
TL
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T.L.
Well said - good advice.
I get frustrated reading the same old posts - because Pilot's as a group are their own worst enemy.
I see conditions getting more like the USA GA scene;
Low pay, no job security, bonding, self-funded endorsements etc.
Yes, blame the few Operators that 'take advantage' of 'poor defenceless Pilots' but in the end, there will always be a Pilot out there willing to accept second best.
It does not matter how tight the emplyment rules are, or how tough the IRC is - a desperate Pilot will find a way get a foot in the door. Over the years, I have seen 'mates' backstab other Pilots for jobs. Quite sad really.
That's why I asked if NAC's operations were being slowed by a lack of Pilots (all sticking together and refusing the offered conditions in my naive imagination).
My Post remains unanswered and I also notice that there has been a lack of real, actual anonymous NAC Pilots responding on this topic.
Do I read this as NAC's operations are op's normal and the contracts, although not quite kosher are being accepted by either the existing Pilot group or a new group of Pilots?.
Well said - good advice.
I get frustrated reading the same old posts - because Pilot's as a group are their own worst enemy.
I see conditions getting more like the USA GA scene;
Low pay, no job security, bonding, self-funded endorsements etc.
Yes, blame the few Operators that 'take advantage' of 'poor defenceless Pilots' but in the end, there will always be a Pilot out there willing to accept second best.
It does not matter how tight the emplyment rules are, or how tough the IRC is - a desperate Pilot will find a way get a foot in the door. Over the years, I have seen 'mates' backstab other Pilots for jobs. Quite sad really.
That's why I asked if NAC's operations were being slowed by a lack of Pilots (all sticking together and refusing the offered conditions in my naive imagination).
My Post remains unanswered and I also notice that there has been a lack of real, actual anonymous NAC Pilots responding on this topic.
Do I read this as NAC's operations are op's normal and the contracts, although not quite kosher are being accepted by either the existing Pilot group or a new group of Pilots?.
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Dear all
We represent a significant amount of present staff at the mentioned company who do not want to resign and become contractors.
The AFAP is actively persuing on behalf of the pilot group a resolution to the current dispute. Latest news is that a draft EBA has been designed by AFAP, forwarded to the MD and we eagerly await him accepting the proposal.
Thank you to all the people who have supported us in our efforts - it has been overwhelming and not limited to Australia. We are fully aware that this issue is not specific to one company but could potentially affect all of GA. Believe it when we say that the 'majors' are aware of current events.
We welcome any support to discourage prospective 'contractors' signing up. The reasons for why we ask this are evident. Yes, a minority of ignorant and anxious (for lack of better words) current pilots have signed on as contractors. This is dissapointing but anticipated under the current environment and as a result they do get most of the flying.
We believe that we are doing the right thing.
I believe (in my personal capacity) you are not only doing the right thing, but also the lawful thing. Two parties (at least) are bound by the conditions of an Award - the employer and the employee. (Occasionally three parties in Federal Awards, where the relevent Union is also bound to the Award).
The "contract" is worthless and meaningless. In the absence of an AWA, only the Award prevails at law.
A claim for unpaid wages, together with an action for wrongful dismissal (should employment be terminated for not signing the "contract") should clear the air.
I am neither pro Union nor pro Award however I am totally committed to the concept of a fair days pay for a fair days work. The Award sets the minimum standard expected of both parties in order to achieve that expectation.
Woomera
We represent a significant amount of present staff at the mentioned company who do not want to resign and become contractors.
The AFAP is actively persuing on behalf of the pilot group a resolution to the current dispute. Latest news is that a draft EBA has been designed by AFAP, forwarded to the MD and we eagerly await him accepting the proposal.
Thank you to all the people who have supported us in our efforts - it has been overwhelming and not limited to Australia. We are fully aware that this issue is not specific to one company but could potentially affect all of GA. Believe it when we say that the 'majors' are aware of current events.
We welcome any support to discourage prospective 'contractors' signing up. The reasons for why we ask this are evident. Yes, a minority of ignorant and anxious (for lack of better words) current pilots have signed on as contractors. This is dissapointing but anticipated under the current environment and as a result they do get most of the flying.
We believe that we are doing the right thing.
I believe (in my personal capacity) you are not only doing the right thing, but also the lawful thing. Two parties (at least) are bound by the conditions of an Award - the employer and the employee. (Occasionally three parties in Federal Awards, where the relevent Union is also bound to the Award).
The "contract" is worthless and meaningless. In the absence of an AWA, only the Award prevails at law.
A claim for unpaid wages, together with an action for wrongful dismissal (should employment be terminated for not signing the "contract") should clear the air.
I am neither pro Union nor pro Award however I am totally committed to the concept of a fair days pay for a fair days work. The Award sets the minimum standard expected of both parties in order to achieve that expectation.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 28th Aug 2004 at 23:56.
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We welcome any support to discourage prospective 'contractors' signing up. The reasons for why we ask this are evident. Yes, a minority of ignorant and anxious (for lack of better words) current pilots have signed on as contractors. This is dissapointing but anticipated under the current environment and as a result they do get most of the flying.
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It's a sad state of affairs.
For to long GA Pilots have copped the wrong end of the stick. Especially in Darwin.
The Days of doing a Bathurst I. all day charter for .6 MR and no waiting time just 20 od dollars for your effit are not that far gone. Finally the industry has a low but exceptable Award wage yet there are still Pilots out there willing to undermind the achievements of who ever it was that fought for all of us. Thier fight was to win the AWARD and make Flying condition better and safer than the were.
Now there are Pilots willing to give up the Award purely to better thier own position. To those who have signed I hope enjoy your days , as the NAC pilots who are standing strong sit at home waiting to be called into fly, while your out there doing max hours and filling your wallets and purses, thinking of that great day when you finally ''get out'' and '' back south with a real'' Job.
It's a sad day. The Pilots of NAC i encourage you to make it very Public who signs. Let these people know what has happened in the past and that the award is there for pretection rather than finacial stability.
No one is forced to SIGN . No excuses please. You do not owe NAC anything, especially not something as valuable as giving up your right to recieve the AWARD.
To the people who have signed I wish you all the best in your Careers. I hope one day you will look back and see the significance of what you have done to the Industry. Your short sightlessness and your self interest will surely make you are very successful person. But a very lonely one.
Again Pilots are prepared to shoot themselves in the Foot. Why???
To the NAC pilots that are doing the right thing, atleast you will know you have the support of all of us that se the great stance you are making. Because if you fall all of us will.
And for nothing else your standing in the Aviation community will be respected for years to come, when hopefully we all have our dream jobs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a sad state of affairs.
For to long GA Pilots have copped the wrong end of the stick. Especially in Darwin.
The Days of doing a Bathurst I. all day charter for .6 MR and no waiting time just 20 od dollars for your effit are not that far gone. Finally the industry has a low but exceptable Award wage yet there are still Pilots out there willing to undermind the achievements of who ever it was that fought for all of us. Thier fight was to win the AWARD and make Flying condition better and safer than the were.
Now there are Pilots willing to give up the Award purely to better thier own position. To those who have signed I hope enjoy your days , as the NAC pilots who are standing strong sit at home waiting to be called into fly, while your out there doing max hours and filling your wallets and purses, thinking of that great day when you finally ''get out'' and '' back south with a real'' Job.
It's a sad day. The Pilots of NAC i encourage you to make it very Public who signs. Let these people know what has happened in the past and that the award is there for pretection rather than finacial stability.
No one is forced to SIGN . No excuses please. You do not owe NAC anything, especially not something as valuable as giving up your right to recieve the AWARD.
To the people who have signed I wish you all the best in your Careers. I hope one day you will look back and see the significance of what you have done to the Industry. Your short sightlessness and your self interest will surely make you are very successful person. But a very lonely one.
Again Pilots are prepared to shoot themselves in the Foot. Why???
To the NAC pilots that are doing the right thing, atleast you will know you have the support of all of us that se the great stance you are making. Because if you fall all of us will.
And for nothing else your standing in the Aviation community will be respected for years to come, when hopefully we all have our dream jobs.
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The MD at NAC is apparently making deals with a Melb based corporate charter company (AJ who operates the NAC Citation) to get their low time pilots to fly for him.
Maybe an indication that the BPS recruit file is actually quite thin.
I suggest that anyone who knows these AJ low timers have a quiet word to them. They may not even know yet.
Lets nip it in the bud if it is true.
Bravo to 'NAC Pilots'
The MD at NAC is apparently making deals with a Melb based corporate charter company (AJ who operates the NAC Citation) to get their low time pilots to fly for him.
Maybe an indication that the BPS recruit file is actually quite thin.
I suggest that anyone who knows these AJ low timers have a quiet word to them. They may not even know yet.
Lets nip it in the bud if it is true.
Bravo to 'NAC Pilots'
Just Binos
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I'm not a pilot and have no particular axe to grind except fairness. I would like to add my voice to those offering words of encouragement to the NAC pilots refusing to sign the contracts. I know that's easy to do from a position of employment but as somebody else pointed out, your stand will be respected by all in the industry in the future, and the names of those signing will also be well known for different reasons.
I was vaguely acquainted with somebody employed by this mob fairly recently, and while I'm not in contact, I find myself hoping she is not one of those signing up.
Good luck to you all, and unity should win this one for you.
I was vaguely acquainted with somebody employed by this mob fairly recently, and while I'm not in contact, I find myself hoping she is not one of those signing up.
Good luck to you all, and unity should win this one for you.
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About time!!
Its about time pilots united and stood up against the poor conditions of employment in this country. I support you guys 100%. So any you thinking about shafting your colleges in Darwin I urge you DON'T!
I'm glad I saw this thread so I know not to apply to NAC thanks.
Lets hope you have a win. It will not only be a win for youselfs, but a win for ALL pilots in GA.
Good luck
Rob
I'm glad I saw this thread so I know not to apply to NAC thanks.
Lets hope you have a win. It will not only be a win for youselfs, but a win for ALL pilots in GA.
Good luck
Rob
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SCABS Favoured
Well sadly not surprising, the MD continues to display no loyalty to those he is responsible for.
HA has informed his staff that promotion among the original pilots is now suspended until they sign the contracts. But today, a contract pilot (dare I say SCAB) who has been flying there a month (if it's even that long) has started his ICUS to jump from 210 to Chieftain, over the top of the standing staff.
On the flip side, NAC continues to have its fleet confiscated by those losing faith in HA's operation and ability to pay bills. 2 Barons have gone to Chartair, and a third is about to go north. With the company's policy for selecting pilot promotion, all NAC aircraft owners should be thinking carefully about who will be flying their aircraft.
Hope the SCABs have their insurance paid up.
HA has informed his staff that promotion among the original pilots is now suspended until they sign the contracts. But today, a contract pilot (dare I say SCAB) who has been flying there a month (if it's even that long) has started his ICUS to jump from 210 to Chieftain, over the top of the standing staff.
On the flip side, NAC continues to have its fleet confiscated by those losing faith in HA's operation and ability to pay bills. 2 Barons have gone to Chartair, and a third is about to go north. With the company's policy for selecting pilot promotion, all NAC aircraft owners should be thinking carefully about who will be flying their aircraft.
Hope the SCABs have their insurance paid up.
Just Binos
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I trust this thread is being forwarded by whatever means possible to the Signers. They need to know how long some people's memories are. Dodgy GA operators may employ them in the future because the operators know they have a slave who will cop any humiliation for the privilege of flying. It is probable that those dodgy operators are as far as the Signers will ever get.
Not all cries of scabs are genuine, and I have been abused by some from THAT year for my opinions, but this is as genuine a case as industrial relations provides, starting as it does at the bedrock of aviation, and the Signers here are the ultimate scabs.
I had previously listened to the stories about HA and assumed there were lots of vested interests putting both sides, making it difficult for an outsider to see the truth. This time it looks to me to be cut and dried, and I suggest the NonSigners attempt to find a labour lawyer who will work pro bono on their behalf. If you lose this case, industrial law will be proven to be a farce, invoking consequences so widespread as to affect possibly millions of lives.
The waterfront dispute was a kick in the arse for unionism because the unions blindly supported the corruption, thievery and legalised thuggery that characterised the wharfies. I for one had no problems with that result, even if I was a little concerned by the methods used.
This case is different. Unionism is on the back foot, their power base is dissolving as part of a natural cycle. It is my belief that this case is a typical example of why unions were formed in the first place. You are, quite simply, being screwed, and this is a circumstance where a union is what is required. Your current union appears to be uninterested, where it should be jumping up and down screaming blue murder.
You may all still think of yourselves as individuals who have no time for unions, and unions basically gave up on pilots long ago for that reason, but have another look at the situation and think again. I say again, unity will win this case for you.
Good luck once again.
Disclosure: I have never occupied a position in any union, and I am not currently a member of a union.
Not all cries of scabs are genuine, and I have been abused by some from THAT year for my opinions, but this is as genuine a case as industrial relations provides, starting as it does at the bedrock of aviation, and the Signers here are the ultimate scabs.
I had previously listened to the stories about HA and assumed there were lots of vested interests putting both sides, making it difficult for an outsider to see the truth. This time it looks to me to be cut and dried, and I suggest the NonSigners attempt to find a labour lawyer who will work pro bono on their behalf. If you lose this case, industrial law will be proven to be a farce, invoking consequences so widespread as to affect possibly millions of lives.
The waterfront dispute was a kick in the arse for unionism because the unions blindly supported the corruption, thievery and legalised thuggery that characterised the wharfies. I for one had no problems with that result, even if I was a little concerned by the methods used.
This case is different. Unionism is on the back foot, their power base is dissolving as part of a natural cycle. It is my belief that this case is a typical example of why unions were formed in the first place. You are, quite simply, being screwed, and this is a circumstance where a union is what is required. Your current union appears to be uninterested, where it should be jumping up and down screaming blue murder.
You may all still think of yourselves as individuals who have no time for unions, and unions basically gave up on pilots long ago for that reason, but have another look at the situation and think again. I say again, unity will win this case for you.
Good luck once again.
Disclosure: I have never occupied a position in any union, and I am not currently a member of a union.
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On the flip side, NAC continues to have its fleet confiscated by those losing faith in HA's operation and ability to pay bills. 2 Barons have gone to Chartair, and a third is about to go north.
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Sorry to say Binoculars but....
I was vaguely acquainted with somebody employed by this mob fairly recently, and while I'm not in contact, I find myself hoping she is not one of those signing up.
NAC Pilots you ARE doing the right thing.
