CASA Raids Meatbombers.
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the pilot involved in this situation is definately not at fault! i can assure you all he is an IFR driver (with about 6000 hrs!!) so there is no issue with respect to the aircraft punching up through cloud.
with the clowns in the back however it is a different story! yes it is up to the pilot to get them up there.... but it is their decision to exit.
the art of "spotting" (the jumpers deciding, after accounting for wind strength, where to exit) which is taught to all student jumpers is quickly being forgotten.
too many jumpers are relying on the GPS spot from the pilot (even on blue sky days).
it is the jumpers who are breaking the rules in this case....
with the clowns in the back however it is a different story! yes it is up to the pilot to get them up there.... but it is their decision to exit.
the art of "spotting" (the jumpers deciding, after accounting for wind strength, where to exit) which is taught to all student jumpers is quickly being forgotten.
too many jumpers are relying on the GPS spot from the pilot (even on blue sky days).
it is the jumpers who are breaking the rules in this case....
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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the pilot involved in this situation is definately not at fault! i can assure you all he is an IFR driver (with about 6000 hrs!!) so there is no issue with respect to the aircraft punching up through cloud.
I seem to recall at some stage that PJE ops, unless specific approval otherwise was given, were to be conducted under VFR. Not sure whether this was covered under a relevant CAR or within the APF operations manual. Can anyone out there clarify that point?
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Gday Islander Jock.....
the organisation (and pilot) concerned use a cresco and a 206 that are both IFR and both of which having doors that are open and closed by the pilot (technically not a door off operation).... and they have naips to file plans....
you are correct in stating that PJE must be conducted in VFR.... but as far as i know there is no stipulation on the climb being conducted in IFR (yes i know it defeats the purpose to climb IFR because it then means that the jumpers will be going through cloud!)
and to QNIM....
i'd like 2 ask what you PIC comment was regarding? if it's about the pilot being responsible for the jumpers then i point you towards APF Operational Regulation 5.2.20, which states....
"Responsibility for authorising parachutists to exit the aircraft is vested in the parachutist who "spots" aircraft by directing it to the exit point.
it seems to me you have an axe to grind.....
the organisation (and pilot) concerned use a cresco and a 206 that are both IFR and both of which having doors that are open and closed by the pilot (technically not a door off operation).... and they have naips to file plans....
you are correct in stating that PJE must be conducted in VFR.... but as far as i know there is no stipulation on the climb being conducted in IFR (yes i know it defeats the purpose to climb IFR because it then means that the jumpers will be going through cloud!)
and to QNIM....
i'd like 2 ask what you PIC comment was regarding? if it's about the pilot being responsible for the jumpers then i point you towards APF Operational Regulation 5.2.20, which states....
"Responsibility for authorising parachutists to exit the aircraft is vested in the parachutist who "spots" aircraft by directing it to the exit point.
it seems to me you have an axe to grind.....
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TNB i dont believe that the APF has any control over pilots, however casa does & In case you are wondering AIP ENR5.5(2) & From memory Cao 29.1 Car 152 has some info on this. I would love to know how many parachutists actually spot the a/c these days even in 8/8 blue let alone how they do this with 8/8 cloud. Why do we always have pilots sticking up for these rouge operators could it be that some are actually skydivers trying to be pilots as well & are actually thinking with their skydive brain engaged. Seems that we will only learn when we have an accident related to jumping through cloud or a non rated ifr pilot looses it & spuds it in with a full load of tandem passengers heaven forbid, wont the media have a field day then.
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Gday TND
Pilot In Command
The CASA rules applying to pilots, lift driving for meatbombs. AIP ENR 5.5-4/ 2.1.1 states [Parachutist must not be dropped if descent will will result in their entry into cloud] The AIP's are not designed for Parachutists but the person in command, piloting the aircraft from which they drop.
I did not complain about the IFR flying operations only the fact that the fools were dropping through cloud and that the pilot will be held responsible.
As for having an axe to grind you are not wrong these fools endanger the lives of myself, my passengers, my students and all other airspace users in the area.
Thanks for your input, if just a little misguided, only time will tell, but I feel the noose is getting tighter.
Cheers Q
Pilot In Command
The CASA rules applying to pilots, lift driving for meatbombs. AIP ENR 5.5-4/ 2.1.1 states [Parachutist must not be dropped if descent will will result in their entry into cloud] The AIP's are not designed for Parachutists but the person in command, piloting the aircraft from which they drop.
I did not complain about the IFR flying operations only the fact that the fools were dropping through cloud and that the pilot will be held responsible.
As for having an axe to grind you are not wrong these fools endanger the lives of myself, my passengers, my students and all other airspace users in the area.
Thanks for your input, if just a little misguided, only time will tell, but I feel the noose is getting tighter.
Cheers Q
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mareeman i agree with you entirely!! sounds like you might have done a little jump flying in your time???
yes unfortunately the clowns in the back (even on 8/8ths blue days) rely on the driver to tell them where to go. and if they land anywhere other than where they're supposed to, trust me, they blame the driver!!!
and unfortunately again.... the media will have a field day with any skydiving accident, as they always have.... the drop zone or the conditions involved will not really have an impact....
mareeman despite what you may think.... i'm not a skydiver!!! although i must admit i know the industry too well as i've been around it for far too long (and well before my aviation career started)!!!! and i can also add that some pilots make excellent skydivers as well as some pilots making excellent skydivers!!!!
i hope noone is accusing me of sticking up for the operator because i too don't agree with what they're doing, i'm only sticking up for the pilot in this case, who some people have tried to drag through the mud for no good reason....
qnim i guess we might agree to disagree?! what we are saying are essentially the same thing (jumpers shall not exit if it results in descent through cloud). i guess it comes to APF regs versus CASA regs??
cheers!!
PS - parablues...... what the?!
okay okay.... before anyone arks up about it.....
some pilots make excellent skydivers...... and some skydivers make excellent pilots!!!
cheers!
yes unfortunately the clowns in the back (even on 8/8ths blue days) rely on the driver to tell them where to go. and if they land anywhere other than where they're supposed to, trust me, they blame the driver!!!
and unfortunately again.... the media will have a field day with any skydiving accident, as they always have.... the drop zone or the conditions involved will not really have an impact....
mareeman despite what you may think.... i'm not a skydiver!!! although i must admit i know the industry too well as i've been around it for far too long (and well before my aviation career started)!!!! and i can also add that some pilots make excellent skydivers as well as some pilots making excellent skydivers!!!!
i hope noone is accusing me of sticking up for the operator because i too don't agree with what they're doing, i'm only sticking up for the pilot in this case, who some people have tried to drag through the mud for no good reason....
qnim i guess we might agree to disagree?! what we are saying are essentially the same thing (jumpers shall not exit if it results in descent through cloud). i guess it comes to APF regs versus CASA regs??
cheers!!
PS - parablues...... what the?!
okay okay.... before anyone arks up about it.....
some pilots make excellent skydivers...... and some skydivers make excellent pilots!!!
cheers!
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Gday TNB
In court I think the CASA regs will hold up much better. The pilot better get him or her- self a bloody good lawyer as they will have an awfull lot of evidence against them.
Cheers Q
In court I think the CASA regs will hold up much better. The pilot better get him or her- self a bloody good lawyer as they will have an awfull lot of evidence against them.
Cheers Q
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Close them down!!!
I have worked for many skydive operators in my time flying everything up to Navajos. And they are all a bad as each other. I just hope that CASA will continue raiding skydive operators. These guys must improve their safety of operation. Jumping through 8/8th cloud is common practise, and unfortunately as a young pilot if you say "no" you'll be out of a job quick smart.
A particular skydive company up north qld admitted to flying aircraft without a MR, and paying pilots to under write the hours flown on the MR, and all they got was a small fine, and a slap on the hand. What a joke. CASA need to come down hard on these operators and make them realise that they must also operator to the rules and regs.
I have worked for many skydive operators in my time flying everything up to Navajos. And they are all a bad as each other. I just hope that CASA will continue raiding skydive operators. These guys must improve their safety of operation. Jumping through 8/8th cloud is common practise, and unfortunately as a young pilot if you say "no" you'll be out of a job quick smart.
A particular skydive company up north qld admitted to flying aircraft without a MR, and paying pilots to under write the hours flown on the MR, and all they got was a small fine, and a slap on the hand. What a joke. CASA need to come down hard on these operators and make them realise that they must also operator to the rules and regs.
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IFR PJE, what a joke! Its done anyway, thing is CASA has no real intention to do anything about it.
In my time Ive seen many keen drivers BEG for hours doing PJE, so they can then go "up north" etc. When they have accumulated what they wanted, THEN they bag the whole PJE community for doing the naughty thing. Some people that posted here (I know who they are), and I remember THEM flying IFR, and doing other things like running out of fuel, drinking lots the night before a long day, etc. Now they call for closing them down! Something out of balance here.
PILOTS, safety is in you hands, you decide what is done in your aircraft.
By the way, I believe jumping through IFR can be done safely enough. Use a Navajo or the like, a TSO c129 GPS, an IFR pilot, an IFR approved Jump Zone, put a flight plan in, pay the dues, pay the pilot please....like they are going to do it that way!!
Im afraid nothing has changed in 20 years!!
In my time Ive seen many keen drivers BEG for hours doing PJE, so they can then go "up north" etc. When they have accumulated what they wanted, THEN they bag the whole PJE community for doing the naughty thing. Some people that posted here (I know who they are), and I remember THEM flying IFR, and doing other things like running out of fuel, drinking lots the night before a long day, etc. Now they call for closing them down! Something out of balance here.
PILOTS, safety is in you hands, you decide what is done in your aircraft.
By the way, I believe jumping through IFR can be done safely enough. Use a Navajo or the like, a TSO c129 GPS, an IFR pilot, an IFR approved Jump Zone, put a flight plan in, pay the dues, pay the pilot please....like they are going to do it that way!!
Im afraid nothing has changed in 20 years!!
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TNB yes ive done a bit of meat bombing in my time. My apologies for implying that you are a skydiver but I feel that most of the time a post is made like yours TNB that it is a skydiver, like i have said in previous posts not all skydivers have their heads in the clouds so to speak just 90% of them. I do know some jumpers that have become pilots & good ones at that some have learnt the hard way by punching the soup & getting into trouble needless to say that they havent made this mistake again!
I hear what your saying in regards to the pilot TNB however I do agree with Qnim the pilot in command is ultimately responsable for letting the jumpers get out like it or not & personally I prefer not.
Gravox im tending to side with you here, I thought a few DZ would be reputable but im starting to really question that. Pilots are always the problem
you would be compared to the last pilot that would punch cloud if you say no & told ah well we will get someone else that will.
Casa will bust the pilots balls & legitimate charter companies if caught for any miniscure thing that is done wrong but parachute companies can do no wrong WAKE UP CASA!
I think the sooner that people not just pilots but the public & casa are aware of how this industry operates then the sooner it could become a clean industry that a pilot could make a half decent living off. If the operators arent doing anything wrong & look after the pilot, because without the pilot you dont have any way of getting up! then you will have nothing to worry about.
Just a quick last point to illustrate what sort of weather some of these people will get out in im currently looking through issue 16-2003 of the australian skydiver magazine & on page 33 is a photo of a couple of skydivers with bloodied faces from hail damage how could this happen if the weather was not rat **** when they got out considering air time for these people would be under 3 minutes.
I hear what your saying in regards to the pilot TNB however I do agree with Qnim the pilot in command is ultimately responsable for letting the jumpers get out like it or not & personally I prefer not.
Gravox im tending to side with you here, I thought a few DZ would be reputable but im starting to really question that. Pilots are always the problem
you would be compared to the last pilot that would punch cloud if you say no & told ah well we will get someone else that will.Casa will bust the pilots balls & legitimate charter companies if caught for any miniscure thing that is done wrong but parachute companies can do no wrong WAKE UP CASA!
I think the sooner that people not just pilots but the public & casa are aware of how this industry operates then the sooner it could become a clean industry that a pilot could make a half decent living off. If the operators arent doing anything wrong & look after the pilot, because without the pilot you dont have any way of getting up! then you will have nothing to worry about.
Just a quick last point to illustrate what sort of weather some of these people will get out in im currently looking through issue 16-2003 of the australian skydiver magazine & on page 33 is a photo of a couple of skydivers with bloodied faces from hail damage how could this happen if the weather was not rat **** when they got out considering air time for these people would be under 3 minutes.
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Motive?
Qnim,
Your profile shows you as a Flight Instructor, and one of your posts claims you have photos from Barwon. Is it possible you work for a Barwon based aviaton firm other than the skydivers?
C.
Your profile shows you as a Flight Instructor, and one of your posts claims you have photos from Barwon. Is it possible you work for a Barwon based aviaton firm other than the skydivers?
C.
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Gday Cinders
In answer to your question.
Maybe then again maybe not.
But the actions of both meatbombing operations in the area do pose a risk to me and my pax. I now carry a camera all the time.
Cheers Q
In answer to your question.
Maybe then again maybe not.
But the actions of both meatbombing operations in the area do pose a risk to me and my pax. I now carry a camera all the time.
Cheers Q
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VCAT Decision
Gday All
The Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal has upheld the councils ruling that the property owned by the meatbombers must not used by them for their operations, and remain rural. This means all the illegal buildings/caravans must be removed.
The main reason given was for aviation based safety.
As a result of the hearing the Principle of the meatbombing orginisation is facing contempt of court charge for threatening a witness in the hearing room.
Some people just never learn.
Cheers Q 
The Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal has upheld the councils ruling that the property owned by the meatbombers must not used by them for their operations, and remain rural. This means all the illegal buildings/caravans must be removed.
The main reason given was for aviation based safety.
As a result of the hearing the Principle of the meatbombing orginisation is facing contempt of court charge for threatening a witness in the hearing room.
Some people just never learn.
Cheers Q
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Has anyone considered checking the current regulations on Parachuting through cloud??????????
I know a CAAP is only an advisory but check this out, it may help to clear some things up
http://www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/152_1.pdf
And no I never have flown meat bombing.
I know a CAAP is only an advisory but check this out, it may help to clear some things up
http://www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/152_1.pdf
And no I never have flown meat bombing.
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Gday Scrambler
Thanks for the post
But as was previously posted a senior member of the Parachute Federation of Australia Mr Graeme Windsor At a meeting several weeks ago at the Geelong Aero Club rooms at Barwon Heads airfield, Stated " That no Skydiving orginisation in Australia had authorisation to descend through cloud".
Then why Do they continue to allow them to operate?
I go back to previous posting.It's like letting kindergarten kids control the lolly shop.
They were dropping through cloud again today.
Cheers Q
Thanks for the post
But as was previously posted a senior member of the Parachute Federation of Australia Mr Graeme Windsor At a meeting several weeks ago at the Geelong Aero Club rooms at Barwon Heads airfield, Stated " That no Skydiving orginisation in Australia had authorisation to descend through cloud".
Then why Do they continue to allow them to operate?
I go back to previous posting.It's like letting kindergarten kids control the lolly shop.
They were dropping through cloud again today.
Cheers Q
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time will tell
Hi L(QNIM).
You are getting enjoyment out of all this eh? If you are trying to make about 30 people lose their jobs and happy about it, good luck! And you know as well as the rest of us that even if the operator was to be closed down they would just open up somewhere else and continue as if nothing has happened. Saying that if youve got good pics then set up a website like every other person in the place and show us all. Hope you got some of the boobie shots as well to keep everyone else interested.
Everyone knows that nothing much will happen to the skydive operators as the main two organisations in this, CASA and the APF have too much to gain from all the skydive operators. If they knuckle down on one they have to do it to all. This makes no money. Its a shame as i do partly agree with some of your points and someone has to go in with a clean rag and polish all these places up a bit.
And the pilot, well if they want to give him a slap on the wrist, Im sure they will. And as you said he's in command but he can only get them there and offer them the lollies. They still have to take them. I dont know about your flying or eyesight capabilities but whenever im directly overhead something i sure as hell cant see it. (When will they start making Xray goggles so our nights out on the town will be so much more interesting.) So the driver has to make a rough judgement on his way up if there will be a hole to see the landing spot. And its not a vfr hole its just a hole which, by the rules, can be as big as the person jumping. Thats not a real big gap is it. And unfortunately you cant really even see them from the ground looking onto a light coloured background. If they say they can see one, how is he to argue. Its their responsibility, in the end. Although I agree it should be all fixed up and tightened as the industry still has a large amount of cowboys, as proven by the fish shop accident, but the pilot in this case is a quality veteran and knows exactly how to get it done safely and within the rules. And im sure you agree a hell of a nice guy!
So lets see what comes out of the wash but i dont think they will be washing with a flood and starting again with a clean slate like you and BH would like. As per usual with government based agencies, i think things will just be patched up and given a new gloss. But you never know in a big city.
Keep it safe and dont take your hands off the wheel to take photos as it may be you causing the accidents and we dont want that.
Safe flying mate.
You are getting enjoyment out of all this eh? If you are trying to make about 30 people lose their jobs and happy about it, good luck! And you know as well as the rest of us that even if the operator was to be closed down they would just open up somewhere else and continue as if nothing has happened. Saying that if youve got good pics then set up a website like every other person in the place and show us all. Hope you got some of the boobie shots as well to keep everyone else interested.
Everyone knows that nothing much will happen to the skydive operators as the main two organisations in this, CASA and the APF have too much to gain from all the skydive operators. If they knuckle down on one they have to do it to all. This makes no money. Its a shame as i do partly agree with some of your points and someone has to go in with a clean rag and polish all these places up a bit.
And the pilot, well if they want to give him a slap on the wrist, Im sure they will. And as you said he's in command but he can only get them there and offer them the lollies. They still have to take them. I dont know about your flying or eyesight capabilities but whenever im directly overhead something i sure as hell cant see it. (When will they start making Xray goggles so our nights out on the town will be so much more interesting.) So the driver has to make a rough judgement on his way up if there will be a hole to see the landing spot. And its not a vfr hole its just a hole which, by the rules, can be as big as the person jumping. Thats not a real big gap is it. And unfortunately you cant really even see them from the ground looking onto a light coloured background. If they say they can see one, how is he to argue. Its their responsibility, in the end. Although I agree it should be all fixed up and tightened as the industry still has a large amount of cowboys, as proven by the fish shop accident, but the pilot in this case is a quality veteran and knows exactly how to get it done safely and within the rules. And im sure you agree a hell of a nice guy!
So lets see what comes out of the wash but i dont think they will be washing with a flood and starting again with a clean slate like you and BH would like. As per usual with government based agencies, i think things will just be patched up and given a new gloss. But you never know in a big city.
Keep it safe and dont take your hands off the wheel to take photos as it may be you causing the accidents and we dont want that.
Safe flying mate.