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-   -   Is Ukraine about to have a war? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/639666-ukraine-about-have-war.html)

Less Hair 24th Aug 2022 09:03

Could the right wing young daughter be considered to be any future political competitor to Mr. Putin?

NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 09:32

For someone that's been through a car explosion and fire, she appears to look remarkably fresh and the grieving father looks relaxed and smiling.


dead_pan 24th Aug 2022 09:37


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11283996)
Turkey could also screw up Russias Syrian support by closing their airspace to overflights.

I think people are overstating the significance of Erdo's comments. Despite his many faults, he's actually pretty adept at playing both sides. FWIW Turkey has never recognised the Russian annexation of Crimea, so he's sticking to a long-held line. Nothing new here.

On the other hand, Turkey seems to be doing quite well out of Russian tourists, their national airline being one of the few 'European' ones still flying to Moscow etc. I also suspect there's an angle for Turkey in the grain deal.

dead_pan 24th Aug 2022 09:45


Originally Posted by etudiant (Post 11284011)
I respect Mearsheimer's expertise and take his comments seriously, because he was outspoken about the disastrous consequences likely to result from the effort to bring Ukraine into the western fold.
He called that exactly, so his current posting deserves attention. Just because it does not make for happy reading is no excuse for brushing it under the rug.

Depends on your perspective. It could be argued that we are where we are because of the consequences of Russia trying to re-assert their control over Ukraine. Putin had been bragging about doing this for years.

Kissinger changed his mind recently. I wonder if Mearsheimer will too?

I know you've set out your stall as a contrarian but do you honestly believe Ukraine is at fault and weren't free to make their own choices as a sovereign nation?

peter we 24th Aug 2022 09:45


Originally Posted by peter we (Post 11284149)
There is a story circulating that Dugin offered to sacrifice his faughter for the cause. The nazi one.

General SVR Telegram channel

Recc 24th Aug 2022 09:58


Originally Posted by Less Hair (Post 11284153)
Could the right wing young daughter be considered to be any future political competitor to Mr. Putin?

I don't think that that is a likely motive as she has no formal political role (or even a particularly high profile in Russia). The Russian leadership is not homogenous when it comes to the policy on Ukraine and Dugin (if not strictly in a leadership role) was influential among the hardliners/ ideologues. The most likely explanation (in my opinion) is that the assassination targeted the father, and was organised by more liberal/ realist elements within the security services. If it was authorised by Putin, then it seems likely that it may be a prelude to an attempt at de-escalation. I imagine that the hardliners who advised him that a quick war in Ukraine was achievable and desirable may not be that popular right now.

If it really was a result of infighting within the Russian leadership, then it will be interesting to see whether it is an isolated act or the start of something more serious.

dead_pan 24th Aug 2022 10:13


Originally Posted by Recc (Post 11284186)
I don't think that that is a likely motive as she has no formal political role (or even a particularly high profile in Russia). The Russian leadership is not homogenous when it comes to the policy on Ukraine and Dugin (if not strictly in a leadership role) was influential among the hardliners/ ideologues. The most likely explanation (in my opinion) is that the assassination targeted the father, and was organised by more liberal/ realist elements within the security services. If it was authorised by Putin, then it seems likely that it may be a prelude to an attempt at de-escalation. I imagine that the hardliners who advised him that a quick war in Ukraine was achievable and desirable may not be that popular right now.

If it really was a result of infighting within the Russian leadership, then it will be interesting to see whether it is an isolated act or the start of something more serious.

I think you're overstating the importance of Dugin. From what I've heard/read he was a bit of a has-been.

Back in the 90s people were regularly blown up by car bombs in Moscow etc, often with no clear explanation or beneficiary. The same applies to this attack IMO.

If we're looking for portents, I think it will be noteworthy if Russia let's today celebrations in Ukraine pass without incident (if only as an indication of their ability to do anything significant).

WB627 24th Aug 2022 10:38


Originally Posted by Less Hair (Post 11284153)
Could the right wing young daughter be considered to be any future political competitor to Mr. Putin?

She is reported to have been after Sergei Shoigu's job as she reckoned she could do a better job (probably not difficult), so that provides one suspect. If she is that ambitious then the top job might have been in her sights making Putin suspect no 2.


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11284170)
For someone that's been through a car explosion and fire, she appears to look remarkably fresh and the grieving father looks relaxed and smiling.

https://twitter.com/KramarenkoMari3/...83329867931650

Open coffin at the funeral. Was she even in the car? Is she even dead?

The FSB has a lot of questions to answer.


Low average 24th Aug 2022 11:08

Not much to be gained from targeting her. Not good for PR - killing young women, no matter their beliefs. I think most likely scenario is that they were after the father, but the operation did not go to plan.

The Helpful Stacker 24th Aug 2022 11:58


Originally Posted by WB627 (Post 11284216)
Open coffin at the funeral. Was she even in the car? Is she even dead?

Indeed.

There is footage out there of her body (apparently) after she was ejected from the vehicle during the blast and, its not pretty. There didn't appear to be enough left intact to allow an open coffin, that's for sure.

Having attended the scene of a fatality on the railway recently (person Vs 120mph passenger train) I can confirm that the body in the footage and what we had to deal with were very similar. IE; closed casket.

ORAC 24th Aug 2022 12:05

Lots to be gained by false-flag attacks to generate public outrage and flagging (sic) support for a failing war - especially against a figure who can be presented sympathetically. And Putin has history….

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publica...ok-ryazan-1999

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...tment_bombings

NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 12:12


Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker (Post 11284268)
Indeed.

There is footage out there of her body (apparently) after she was ejected from the vehicle during the blast and, its not pretty. There didn't appear to be enough left intact to allow an open coffin, that's for sure.

or identify ;)
If he did offer his daughter up, I bet he is peeved, its a definite downgrade from the car he had to a Lada.

WB627 24th Aug 2022 12:49

Has Lukashenko dumped him as well??


Not many mates left now if it is true :)

twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1562314566742196224 just in case the URL fails

Edit to add which it has for me!


NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 13:22

Awesome..


NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 15:02

More hits on the dam bridge, the second post says no idea of the date but those holes look bad.



this says today as the date

https://t.me/novakahovka/270486

Along with Norway we are sending Black Hornets


NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 15:21

This plainly just stupid, these guys would have been trained in the UK to operate the MLRS systems.. It's throwing away skill sets that they need..


albatross 24th Aug 2022 15:27


Originally Posted by Video Mixdown (Post 11284106)
Purposely? Unwittingly? Under Duress? Mistakenly? On Putin's orders? By some nascent resistance group? Could be any of the above in Russian politics. I think the least likely is Ukraine - why would they bother when their country is full of much more important targets.

Why am I reminded of Tom Clancy’s ( of “The Hunt for Red October” fame ) book “Red Storm Rising”?
The KGB detonates a bomb in the Kremlin killing school children on a tour in order to arouse the masses to invade NATO.
Many other parallels to the present situation in that book.
Spoiler alert … "NATO WINS!”

NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 15:35


Originally Posted by albatross (Post 11284407)
Why am I reminded of Tom Clancy’s ( of “The Hunt for Red October” fame ) book “Red Storm Rising”?
The KGB detonates a bomb in the Kremlin killing school children on a tour in order to arouse the masses to invade NATO.
Many other parallels to the present situation in that book.
Spoiler alert … "NATO WINS!”

He is not without form, it is one possible reason why Putin came to power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...tment_bombings

fdr 24th Aug 2022 15:59


Originally Posted by WB627 (Post 11284301)
Has Lukashenko dumped him as well??

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1562314566742196224

Not many mates left now if it is true :)

twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1562314566742196224 just in case the URL fails

Edit to add which it has for me!

If only. If the last emperor dictator of Europe changed his underwear spots, that would be a biiiiiiig deal to Russia. The force OOB is not that great, but the Euroasian Co prosperity Sphere of Putinastan A.K.A. Disasterstan, would need to reset their border defenses. Can't see that happening, Russia would take that as a non-trivial position and would be looking at ways to cause havoc to the Kingdom of Far Far Away. If wishes were pennies.... Lucky Russia still has some T-34s available to defend the bat cave. If not, there are some going asking in the baltic states.

That map is reminiscent of the one which showed Russia's intent to waltz into Moldova to share the spirit of brotherly love.

Tartiflette Fan 24th Aug 2022 16:19

Ukrainian pilots training on simulators for A10 (freelance -op )
 

NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 17:09

DCS, VR Headset, Thrustmaster A10 Warthog throttle and stick, A10 software, rudder pedals…

I have them all lol, where do I Sign up :P

Tartiflette Fan 24th Aug 2022 17:30


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11284464)
DCS, VR Headset, Thrustmaster A10 Warthog throttle and stick, A10 software, rudder pedals…

I have them all lol, where do I Sign up :P

Start queuing on Steep Hill: recruitment in the The Wig and Mitre ! I guess you've been there before ? :O:O

Beamr 24th Aug 2022 20:16

Any bets on where the next cigarrette butt is carelessly thrown away...


NutLoose 24th Aug 2022 20:43

What is this?


rattman 24th Aug 2022 21:03

Latest defence package
6 NASAMS with additional missiles
Up to 245k rounds of 155mm artillery ammunition
Up to 65,000 rounds of 120mm mortar ammunition
Up to 24 counter-artillery radars
Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems (UAS) and support equipment for Scan Eagle UAS systems
VAMPIRE Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems
Laser-guided rocket systems
Funding for training, maintenance, and sustainment

No one seems to know what VAMPIRE is, there is this one https://www.l3harris.com/all-capabilities/vampire, but cant imagine APWKS is accurate enough to hit a drone so must be something new

Found this https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/10...-capabilities/

The Helpful Stacker 24th Aug 2022 21:17


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11284577)

Not sure, but Raska is in Serbia.

Recc 24th Aug 2022 21:23


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11284577)


Looks like a Pantsir. Couldn't say what version though.

EDIT: After a bit of googling for comparison images, it looks like the non modernised S1 variant

ORAC 24th Aug 2022 21:44

Kremlin propagandists are trying to convince their audiences that Ukrainians will somehow forgive and forget Putin's atrocities, making comparisons to Chechnya and ludicrously predicting that someday, shoulder to shoulder with Russians, Ukrainians will invade Poland and Germany.

fdr 24th Aug 2022 23:13


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11284598)
Kremlin propagandists are trying to convince their audiences that Ukrainians will somehow forgive and forget Putin's atrocities, making comparisons to Chechnya and ludicrously predicting that someday, shoulder to shoulder with Russians, Ukrainians will invade Poland and Germany.

Ukraine hasn't forgotten the Holodomor; not much chance that they will gloss over 2 invasions by Russia in 8 years. There is an implied assumption that "Russia" remains as it stands, and that would seem to be getting a less and less likely outcome. Rus is about to be getting asked uncomfortable questions on their general attitude to the constituent states of the Federation that have the right to stop being part of the Federation, and can stop being raped and pillaged to sustain the criminals in the Kremlin. Party is over, time to clean up (on aise 13...).

Ukraine is not going to trust Russia anytime in the near future, nor should they. Russia is a recidivist.

Russia is reminiscent of a worm-riddled apple, looks good until the first bite. Their military would be hard pressed now to take on Georgia, or Moldova, both of which are going to be pushing towards greater EU integration, as will any other states that have avoided drinking the Kool-aid. Don;t suggest that is a good thing or a bad thing, but Russia has managed to wipe out ((45/120) + (25/50))/(174+6).... so.... more or less, they are outta skilled warfighters. They can probably get the police and customs guys to arm up and go menace Primorski Krai, Dagestan, Tartarstan, etc. they can technical some Lada's, probably higher survivability than the special turret launch system T-72's from the Ural tractor factory.

NutLoose 25th Aug 2022 01:39

I’m sorry, I know a lot of people slate Boris off on here, but he does not need to do this as his term is coming to an end, but has and absolute kudos to him for doing it, especially as on this day, the Ukrainian Independence Day when the threat from Russia was particularly high and parades had deliberately been cancelled.
Say what you like, but few leaders would do that and he is showing Ukraine we are still with them.

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1562434563628240898

https://youtu.be/MaSN6Rldixk

etudiant 25th Aug 2022 02:57


Originally Posted by dead_pan (Post 11284181)
Depends on your perspective. It could be argued that we are where we are because of the consequences of Russia trying to re-assert their control over Ukraine. Putin had been bragging about doing this for years.


Kissinger changed his mind recently. I wonder if Mearsheimer will too?


I know you've set out your stall as a contrarian but do you honestly believe Ukraine is at fault and weren't free to make their own choices as a sovereign nation?


Mearsheimer uses 'offensive realism' as the description of international behavior, because there is no recourse to a central authority, prudent leaders try to ensure that the proximate states prefer to deal with you peacefully.

Yet the post Maidan government moved ahead with an anti Russian campaign even though about 25% of their people were primarily Russian speaking. Neighboring with Russia, that was not a prudent initiative..

I accept that as leaders of a sovereign nation, the actions by Kiev were legal, but considering there was no consent by the Russian minority to those actions, their revolt also seems legitimate to me. .

Consequently I do not see the Kiev leadership as heroes, but rather as the irresponsible instigators of this conflagration, much as the Serbian leadership helped set off WW1.

Mearsheimer writes that there is no plausible path for diplomacy currently visible, suggesting that this war will become considerably worse. His judgement has been proven correct thus far.

JustinHeywood 25th Aug 2022 03:31


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11284598)
Kremlin propagandists are trying to convince their audiences that Ukrainians will somehow forgive and forget Putin's atrocities, making comparisons to Chechnya and ludicrously predicting that someday, shoulder to shoulder with Russians, Ukrainians will invade Poland and Germany.


Wow.
‘Someday’ Ukrainians and Russians will march together into Warsaw and Berlin.

Who are these people and what world do they live in? Do they never travel outside Russia, or pick up a foreign newspaper? Do they not realise that the rest of the world think their country is a dysfunctional pariah with a weak military, and want nothing to do with them.

Big Pistons Forever 25th Aug 2022 04:07


Originally Posted by etudiant (Post 11284702)
Mearsheimer uses 'offensive realism' as the description of international behavior, because there is no recourse to a central authority, prudent leaders try to ensure that the proximate states prefer to deal with you peacefully.

Yet the post Maidan government moved ahead with an anti Russian campaign even though about 25% of their people were primarily Russian speaking. Neighboring with Russia, that was not a prudent initiative..

I accept that as leaders of a sovereign nation, the actions by Kiev were legal, but considering there was no consent by the Russian minority to those actions, their revolt also seems legitimate to me. .

Consequently I do not see the Kiev leadership as heroes, but rather as the irresponsible instigators of this conflagration, much as the Serbian leadership helped set off WW1.

Mearsheimer writes that there is no plausible path for diplomacy currently visible, suggesting that this war will become considerably worse. His judgement has been proven correct thus far.

I am having trouble making the connection here. Are you saying that 25% of the Ukrainian population wanted Ukraine to be part of Russia, not an independent country ?

Do you see Russia having any responsibility to end this conflict ?

Tartiflette Fan 25th Aug 2022 05:18


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11284686)
I’m sorry, I know a lot of people slate Boris off on here, but he does not need to do this as his term is coming to an end, but has and absolute kudos to him for doing it,

It is of little import now, but i think it was his attempt to overcome the waves of bad decisions and unpopularity : it was a potential life-belt to keep him afloat and surviving which is his sole aim in life..

Video Mixdown 25th Aug 2022 07:59


Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan (Post 11284729)
It is of little import now, but i think it was his attempt to overcome the waves of bad decisions and unpopularity : it was a potential life-belt to keep him afloat and surviving which is his sole aim in life..

​​This thread is about the war, and it is undeniable that the PM and UK Government have played a leading role in assembling the international support that has allowed Ukraine to defend itself so effectively - a role that is likely to continue long after he has left office.

NutLoose 25th Aug 2022 08:16


Originally Posted by JustinHeywood (Post 11284709)
https://twitter.com/juliadavisnews/s...lmmtA4snLO2yZQ

Wow.
‘Someday’ Ukrainians and Russians will march together into Warsaw and Berlin.

I wonder if he is referring to Ukraine delivering prisoners to a EU warcrimes commission;)

NutLoose 25th Aug 2022 08:18

Sorry my unintentional slip….back to the war

The pontoon bridge being built


Tartiflette Fan 25th Aug 2022 08:23

An interesting - but very long and detailed - read from "The Institute for the Study of War"

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nflict-updates

This comment in particular highlighted for me the degree to which the Russian army is incapable of advancing.

"
  • Russian forces have lost an area larger than Denmark since the high-water mark of their invasion of Ukraine in mid-March and gained an area the size of Andorra (one percent of what they have lost) in the last 39 days. "
The actual numbers relating to the above comparison are 45 000 km2 and 450 km2.

Ninthace 25th Aug 2022 09:24


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11284815)
Sorry my unintentional slip….back to the war

The pontoon bridge being built

https://twitter.com/OsintTv/status/1562715132110573569

Allegedly, could be any boat, anywhere.

NutLoose 25th Aug 2022 10:00

You can see the pontoon bridge being built here



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