Ukraine War Thread Part 2
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9/11 was a wake up call for the US, previously the rest of the World had suffered from terrorist attacks and just basically got on with it, but the US seemed to believe such a thing couldn’t happen on the US mainland., but it did.
Now as we all appear to have had a tit for tat about who should and shouldn’t support Ukraine, I will only say one thing, the US and I mean both parties stood up and welcomed Zelenskyy to the house and pledged whatever it would take in support to allow them to win, sadly at the moment they are reneging on that commitment.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/init...y?id=107482799
..
Now as we all appear to have had a tit for tat about who should and shouldn’t support Ukraine, I will only say one thing, the US and I mean both parties stood up and welcomed Zelenskyy to the house and pledged whatever it would take in support to allow them to win, sadly at the moment they are reneging on that commitment.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/init...y?id=107482799
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 15th Apr 2024 at 19:44.
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9/11 was a wake up call for the US, previously the rest of the World had suffered from terrorist attacks and just basically got on with it, but the US seemed to believe such a thing couldn’t happen on the US mainland., but it did.
Now as we all appear to have had a tit for tat about who should and shouldn’t support Ukraine, I will only say one thing, the US and I mean both parties stood up and welcomed Zelenskyy to the house and pledge whatever it would take support to allow them to win, sadly at the moment they are renaming on that commitment.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/init...y?id=107482799
Now as we all appear to have had a tit for tat about who should and shouldn’t support Ukraine, I will only say one thing, the US and I mean both parties stood up and welcomed Zelenskyy to the house and pledge whatever it would take support to allow them to win, sadly at the moment they are renaming on that commitment.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/init...y?id=107482799
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That is what irks me most about the current vacillation from the US. Nobody forced them to get involved, they decided that for themselves. I wonder how proud they'll be if next year the kit they provided before is being paraded through Red Square. Maybe Trump will be standing next to Putin and clapping.
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LW
And you didn’t, in fact you are doing it now on a far greater scale than even Putin could have dreamed of, and he IS taking advantage of it.
The sad part in all of this, is you do not see it, you are being lead down the path of subservience to Putin’s goals, like some pet dog wagging its tail behind him.
This Is All Your Fault All of you. You showed Putin how weak you are, collectively, and he took advantage of it.
The sad part in all of this, is you do not see it, you are being lead down the path of subservience to Putin’s goals, like some pet dog wagging its tail behind him.
For Less Hair:
Where were you lot in 2014?
Nowhere.
You tell me it's a "global security issue" but the lot of you sat on your hands.
You showed Putin your arse and he's buggering you in it.
Maybe we ought to send you some Petroleum Jelly ...
The only reason this war is still a going concern is that Ukraine surprised the lot of you and fought back.
And they are stil fighting back.
I am still disappointed at Mr BIden for not being able to, despite months of attempts, prevent the tanks from rolling in 2022 ... but it appears that he simply lacked the leverage, or maybe the credibility, to make Vlad think again about trying to pull this off. And I don't think it helped that around the time of the Winter Olympics, Mr Xi apparently assured Vlad that China had his back. Lacking that, I don't think Vlad would have rolled.
It might have taken a Bush41/Baker team to have been successful, hard to say, as it's all water under the bridge.
On the bright side, plenty of weapons systems are being op tested or validated, and some new developments are in the offing ...
Where were you lot in 2014?
Nowhere.
You tell me it's a "global security issue" but the lot of you sat on your hands.
You showed Putin your arse and he's buggering you in it.
Maybe we ought to send you some Petroleum Jelly ...
The only reason this war is still a going concern is that Ukraine surprised the lot of you and fought back.
And they are stil fighting back.
I am still disappointed at Mr BIden for not being able to, despite months of attempts, prevent the tanks from rolling in 2022 ... but it appears that he simply lacked the leverage, or maybe the credibility, to make Vlad think again about trying to pull this off. And I don't think it helped that around the time of the Winter Olympics, Mr Xi apparently assured Vlad that China had his back. Lacking that, I don't think Vlad would have rolled.
It might have taken a Bush41/Baker team to have been successful, hard to say, as it's all water under the bridge.
On the bright side, plenty of weapons systems are being op tested or validated, and some new developments are in the offing ...
Today we are the second biggest contributor to Ukraine after the US.
Now that the Kremlin madman is definately not going to invade Alaska, the US can certainly send the ex-aggressor F16's to Ukraine instead of making them an interceptor squadron, n'est ce pas?
What we do with our stuff is our call. (Though for my money, ATACMs should have been released for use sooner than they were)
The results are mixed, to be sure.
For the record I don't agree with either view.
This isn't just a problem in the teens, it's a decades long problem. Ever since Euro Coprs was ideated in the 90's it has been all noise, little to no action.
Now as we all appear to have had a tit for tat about who should and shouldn’t support Ukraine
Without the billions already committed they'd not have had the means to keep fighting.
Also, something you likely failed to account for is how the US backfilled certain nations' equipment when they donated their Soviet era equipment to Ukraine (since that is what Ukraine was most familiar with and had in their order of battle). There's a place where the Visigrad, Baltic, and other previous Bloc folks shone like the sun.
A well done all around.
(And they could receive US kit as a back fill without it getting earmarked as Ukraine aid ... see also what Greece pulled off recently).
The sad part in all of this, is you do not see it,
It's your fault - collectively, all of you in Europe, to include the UK (you only recently left the EU) - that you failed to establish a EUROPEAN security environment.
You evisicerated your own capability to the point that some of you basically can't provide the formations already committed to NATO ... that's been a topic that's very current for the last few months from multiple sources.(See the NATO vs Russia thread as well...)
FFS, even high NATO officials are saying that NATO needs a few YEARS to get back on step.
All of you are at fault. (Credit to the Poles for playing Cassandra, but who would listen?)
I repeat since you seem to not listen to well: you collectively had 30 plus years to do it, you talked about it on and on and on for decades: and you have failed.
On the bright side, it appears that some corrective action is in the offing.
What if Putin's propaganda campaign (which someone in Brussels was barking about last week) impacts EU elections this year?
Are you still going to be a whinging loser and blame the US for your self-made problems?
Knowing you, Nutty, yes you will.
But here's what you Euros could do.
Assume Trump wins. (I don't think he will, but can you afford to plan for something other than worst case?)
Make your plans according to his worst rhetoric coming true.
There's a planning assumption that may get some people off of their butts and produce results.
And if the more likely thing happens (Trump doesn't win) then you are ahead of the game in terms of catching up.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 15th Apr 2024 at 21:03.
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Greek F-16’s are off the table for now.
While that is disappointing, maybe it's a temporary setback?
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Wow, gloves off and the ability to take the fight to Russia’s rear?
Norway will hand Ukraine modernized F-16s with the latest weapons for strikes against Russian rears, - Norwegian Foreign Minister Espen Bart Eide
The minister announced this during a joint briefing with the head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, Dmytro Kuleba. "I am convinced that Ukraine should strengthen its strike potential, strike behind the front line.
And this is one of the reasons why we are very happy to join the F-16 coalition, where we will be transferring Norwegian F-16s that are updated, that are in good shape," said Eide.
The diplomat also added that Norway is increasing the production of NASAMS and is negotiating with other countries to transfer more Patriot air defense systems to Ukraine:
"We are currently discussing with other countries how to provide more Patriot systems. Air defense is very important for the protection of the economy, energy, infrastructure and the population," the minister said.
The head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, Dmytro Kuleba, discussed with his Norwegian counterpart the expansion of the support program for Ukraine. Kuleba noted that relevant discussions are ongoing in Norway.
"We must do more, we must do better, think more strategically so that Ukraine wins and Russia loses. And we need to think about how to make sure that Ukraine can keep its territory, sovereignty and independence, and this is important for Ukraine, and it is important for all of us: it is important for Norway, it is important for all democratic forces in Europe and beyond. said the Norwegian minister.
The minister announced this during a joint briefing with the head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, Dmytro Kuleba. "I am convinced that Ukraine should strengthen its strike potential, strike behind the front line.
And this is one of the reasons why we are very happy to join the F-16 coalition, where we will be transferring Norwegian F-16s that are updated, that are in good shape," said Eide.
The diplomat also added that Norway is increasing the production of NASAMS and is negotiating with other countries to transfer more Patriot air defense systems to Ukraine:
"We are currently discussing with other countries how to provide more Patriot systems. Air defense is very important for the protection of the economy, energy, infrastructure and the population," the minister said.
The head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, Dmytro Kuleba, discussed with his Norwegian counterpart the expansion of the support program for Ukraine. Kuleba noted that relevant discussions are ongoing in Norway.
"We must do more, we must do better, think more strategically so that Ukraine wins and Russia loses. And we need to think about how to make sure that Ukraine can keep its territory, sovereignty and independence, and this is important for Ukraine, and it is important for all of us: it is important for Norway, it is important for all democratic forces in Europe and beyond. said the Norwegian minister.
I can't help thinking that the to and fro about NATO vs some sort of Euro force completely misses the point.
NATO already existed and had the structures to provide support and included European nations.
In that environment a European force had nothing practical to contribute beyond perhaps amalgamation of European command and control elements.
NATO already existed and had the structures to provide support and included European nations.
In that environment a European force had nothing practical to contribute beyond perhaps amalgamation of European command and control elements.
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Could you ever get it to work? You will have each country doubling up on equipment, take transport aircraft, would you really need each country to operate a fleet?
I remember the UK right wing tabloids screaming blue murder at the very notion of an 'EU Army' prior to UKIP rearing it's ugly head. Go figure. 🤔
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You are all invited to investigate, using the search function, the discussions on the European Army that have been raised on this sub forum over the years.
There are multiple threads.
Let us please return to the topic at hand.
Thank you.
There are multiple threads.
Let us please return to the topic at hand.
Thank you.
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Thank you Lonewolf_50
You may refer to 9-11-01. The difference is that rather than sit back and take it, we decided to do something about it.
The results are mixed, to be sure.
Fair enough. The EU spent a lot of the 90's and 00's trying to push back against the idea of an American hegemon, but failed for over 30 years to evolve a coherent defense policy - despite the efforts at becoming something bigger and better.
This isn't just a problem in the teens, it's a decades long problem. Ever since Euro Coprs was ideated in the 90's it has been all noise, little to no action.
And decided to do something about it. Results are decidedly mixed. What that reaction did achieve, though, was to send a message that it's gonna cost you to do that. Some people still try. And a lot of them die.
No, that's not it. It's all a day late and a dollar short. I was quite frustrated at how many strings were attached to stuff (by the US and others) being sent to Ukraine in the first year. Did not make sense to me. At least some of those restrictions are relaxed at this point.
You can't see past the end of your nose.
Without the billions already committed they'd not have had the means to keep fighting.
Also, something you likely failed to account for is how the US backfilled certain nations' equipment when they donated their Soviet era equipment to Ukraine (since that is what Ukraine was most familiar with and had in their order of battle). There's a place where the Visigrad, Baltic, and other previous Bloc folks shone like the sun.
A well done all around.
(And they could receive US kit as a back fill without it getting earmarked as Ukraine aid ... see also what Greece pulled off recently).
Nutty you got on the blame the US bus based on a lack of wit, and you remain there for the same reason.
It's your fault - collectively, all of you in Europe, to include the UK (you only recently left the EU) - that you failed to establish a EUROPEAN security environment.
You evisicerated your own capability to the point that some of you basically can't provide the formations already committed to NATO ... that's been a topic that's very current for the last few months from multiple sources.(See the NATO vs Russia thread as well...)
FFS, even high NATO officials are saying that NATO needs a few YEARS to get back on step.
All of you are at fault. (Credit to the Poles for playing Cassandra, but who would listen?)
I repeat since you seem to not listen to well: you collectively had 30 plus years to do it, you talked about it on and on and on for decades: and you have failed.
On the bright side, it appears that some corrective action is in the offing.
What if Putin's propaganda campaign (which someone in Brussels was barking about last week) impacts EU elections this year?
Are you still going to be a whinging loser and blame the US for your self-made problems?
Knowing you, Nutty, yes you will.
But here's what you Euros could do.
Assume Trump wins. (I don't think he will, but can you afford to plan for something other than worst case?)
Make your plans according to his worst rhetoric coming true.
There's a planning assumption that may get some people off of their butts and produce results.
And if the more likely thing happens (Trump doesn't win) then you are ahead of the game in terms of catching up.
The results are mixed, to be sure.
Fair enough. The EU spent a lot of the 90's and 00's trying to push back against the idea of an American hegemon, but failed for over 30 years to evolve a coherent defense policy - despite the efforts at becoming something bigger and better.
This isn't just a problem in the teens, it's a decades long problem. Ever since Euro Coprs was ideated in the 90's it has been all noise, little to no action.
And decided to do something about it. Results are decidedly mixed. What that reaction did achieve, though, was to send a message that it's gonna cost you to do that. Some people still try. And a lot of them die.
No, that's not it. It's all a day late and a dollar short. I was quite frustrated at how many strings were attached to stuff (by the US and others) being sent to Ukraine in the first year. Did not make sense to me. At least some of those restrictions are relaxed at this point.
You can't see past the end of your nose.
Without the billions already committed they'd not have had the means to keep fighting.
Also, something you likely failed to account for is how the US backfilled certain nations' equipment when they donated their Soviet era equipment to Ukraine (since that is what Ukraine was most familiar with and had in their order of battle). There's a place where the Visigrad, Baltic, and other previous Bloc folks shone like the sun.
A well done all around.
(And they could receive US kit as a back fill without it getting earmarked as Ukraine aid ... see also what Greece pulled off recently).
Nutty you got on the blame the US bus based on a lack of wit, and you remain there for the same reason.
It's your fault - collectively, all of you in Europe, to include the UK (you only recently left the EU) - that you failed to establish a EUROPEAN security environment.
You evisicerated your own capability to the point that some of you basically can't provide the formations already committed to NATO ... that's been a topic that's very current for the last few months from multiple sources.(See the NATO vs Russia thread as well...)
FFS, even high NATO officials are saying that NATO needs a few YEARS to get back on step.
All of you are at fault. (Credit to the Poles for playing Cassandra, but who would listen?)
I repeat since you seem to not listen to well: you collectively had 30 plus years to do it, you talked about it on and on and on for decades: and you have failed.
On the bright side, it appears that some corrective action is in the offing.
What if Putin's propaganda campaign (which someone in Brussels was barking about last week) impacts EU elections this year?
Are you still going to be a whinging loser and blame the US for your self-made problems?
Knowing you, Nutty, yes you will.
But here's what you Euros could do.
Assume Trump wins. (I don't think he will, but can you afford to plan for something other than worst case?)
Make your plans according to his worst rhetoric coming true.
There's a planning assumption that may get some people off of their butts and produce results.
And if the more likely thing happens (Trump doesn't win) then you are ahead of the game in terms of catching up.
From the New York Times just now https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/w...ouse-vote.html
Speaker Mike Johnson on Monday said he planned this week to advance a long-stalled national security spending package to aid Israel, Ukraine and other American allies, along with a separate bill aimed at mollifying conservatives who have been vehemently opposed to backing Kyiv.
Mr. Johnson’s announcement, coming after he has agonized for weeks over whether and how to advance an infusion of critical aid to Ukraine amid stiff Republican resistance, was the first concrete indication that he had settled on a path forward. It came days after Iran launched a large aerial attack on Israel, amplifying calls for Congress to move quickly to approve the pending aid bill.
Emerging from a meeting in which he briefed G.O.P. lawmakers on his plan, Mr. Johnson said he would cobble together a legislative package that roughly mirrors the $95 billion aid bill the Senate passed two months ago but that is broken down into three pieces. Lawmakers would vote separately on a bill providing money for Israel, one allocating funding for Ukraine and a third with aid for Taiwan and other allies. They would cast a fourth vote on a separate measure containing other policies popular among Republicans.
“We know that the world is watching us to see how we react,” Mr. Johnson told reporters. “We have terrorists and tyrants and terrible leaders around the world like Putin and Xi and in Iran, and they’re watching to see if America will stand up for its allies and our interests around the globe — and we will.”
Mr. Johnson’s announcement, coming after he has agonized for weeks over whether and how to advance an infusion of critical aid to Ukraine amid stiff Republican resistance, was the first concrete indication that he had settled on a path forward. It came days after Iran launched a large aerial attack on Israel, amplifying calls for Congress to move quickly to approve the pending aid bill.
Emerging from a meeting in which he briefed G.O.P. lawmakers on his plan, Mr. Johnson said he would cobble together a legislative package that roughly mirrors the $95 billion aid bill the Senate passed two months ago but that is broken down into three pieces. Lawmakers would vote separately on a bill providing money for Israel, one allocating funding for Ukraine and a third with aid for Taiwan and other allies. They would cast a fourth vote on a separate measure containing other policies popular among Republicans.
“We know that the world is watching us to see how we react,” Mr. Johnson told reporters. “We have terrorists and tyrants and terrible leaders around the world like Putin and Xi and in Iran, and they’re watching to see if America will stand up for its allies and our interests around the globe — and we will.”
We get the talk, time to walk.
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Looks like his chances o& getting th3 bills through are slim to none. And as the old joke goes, Slim’s out of town right now…
https://www.politico.com/live-update...posal-00152375
Johnson plans separate House votes on Ukraine and Israel this week
It's far from certain that Johnson would have the votes to bring the bills to the floor, given current procedural hurdles and Republicans' narrow majority.
https://www.politico.com/live-update...posal-00152375
Johnson plans separate House votes on Ukraine and Israel this week
It's far from certain that Johnson would have the votes to bring the bills to the floor, given current procedural hurdles and Republicans' narrow majority.
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But didn’t Biden say he wouldn’t sign one without the other..
more delaying tactics.
more delaying tactics.