Originally Posted by
TURIN
Lonewolf.
Much of what you say has merit however...
That's a bit like saying the attacks on 11/9/01 were all the fault of the USA!
You may refer to 9-11-01. The difference is that rather than sit back and take it, we decided to do something about it.
The results are mixed, to be sure.
For the record I don't agree with either view.
Fair enough. The EU spent a lot of the 90's and 00's trying to push back against the idea of an American hegemon, but failed for over 30 years to evolve a coherent defense policy - despite the efforts at becoming something bigger and better.
This isn't just a problem in the teens, it's a decades long problem. Ever since Euro Coprs was ideated in the 90's it has been all noise, little to no action.
Originally Posted by
NutLoose
9/11 was a wake up call for the US, previously the rest of the World had suffered from terrorist attacks and just basically got on with it, but the US seemed to believe such a thing couldn’t happen on the US mainland., but it did.
And decided to do something about it. Results are decidedly mixed. What that reaction did achieve, though, was to send a message that it's gonna cost you to do that. Some people still try. And a lot of them die.
Now as we all appear to have had a tit for tat about who should and shouldn’t support Ukraine
No, that's not it. It's
all a day late and a dollar short. I was quite frustrated at how many strings were attached to stuff (by the US and others) being sent to Ukraine in the first year. Did not make sense to me. At least some of those restrictions are relaxed at this point.
Originally Posted by
NutLoose
] And you didn’t, in fact you are doing it now on a far greater scale than even Putin could have dreamed of, and he IS taking advantage of it.
You can't see past the end of your nose.
Without the billions already committed they'd not have had the means to keep fighting.
Also, something you likely failed to account for is how the US backfilled certain nations' equipment when they donated their Soviet era equipment to Ukraine (since that is what Ukraine was most familiar with and had in their order of battle). There's a place where the Visigrad, Baltic, and other previous Bloc folks shone like the sun.
A well done all around.
(And they could receive US kit as a back fill without it getting earmarked as Ukraine aid ... see also what Greece pulled off recently).
The sad part in all of this, is you do not see it,
Nutty you got on the blame the US bus based on a lack of wit, and you remain there for the same reason.
It's your fault - collectively, all of you in Europe, to include the UK (you only recently left the EU) - that
you failed to establish a EUROPEAN security environment.
You evisicerated your own capability to the point that some of you basically can't provide the formations already committed to NATO ... that's been a topic that's very current for the last few months from multiple sources.(See the NATO vs Russia thread as well...)
FFS, even high NATO officials are saying that NATO needs a few YEARS to get back on step.
All of you are at fault. (Credit to the Poles for playing Cassandra, but who would listen?)
I repeat since you seem to not listen to well: you collectively had 30 plus years to do it, you talked about it on and on and on for decades: and you have failed.
On the bright side, it appears that some corrective action is in the offing.
What if Putin's propaganda campaign (which someone in Brussels was barking about last week) impacts EU elections this year?
Are you still going to be a whinging loser and blame the US for your self-made problems?
Knowing you, Nutty, yes you will.
But here's what you Euros could do.
Assume Trump wins. (I don't think he will, but can you afford to plan for something other than worst case?)
Make your plans according to his worst rhetoric coming true.
There's a planning assumption that may get some people off of their butts and produce results.
And if the more likely thing happens (Trump doesn't win) then you are ahead of the game in terms of catching up.