Not-so-woke Reds
Reds in trouble?
I wouldn’t worry about the future of the Red Arrows.
When I joined, we were lectured by a wise old cynic about the history and future of the RAF. Asked if he believed in the future of the Service, he told us “in your lifetimes, there will always be a Royal Air Force with Scampton, The Red Arrows, and *617 Squadron”. That was 1967.
* expletive.
When I joined, we were lectured by a wise old cynic about the history and future of the RAF. Asked if he believed in the future of the Service, he told us “in your lifetimes, there will always be a Royal Air Force with Scampton, The Red Arrows, and *617 Squadron”. That was 1967.
* expletive.
o Me
BLAND
The RAF I knew was full of eccentrics- aircrew who lived life to the full ,loved flying and worked ,when necessary,24/7
A can do attitude prevailed,squadron morale was high- and the Reds ( love them or hate them) were admired (and envied) by us all. Their skill acquired by HARD WEEKEND WORK was the envy of all who love aviation. They were ,and still are,the stars of the show and most of us would love to have been good enough to be selected for THE team.
Everyone knew that they were prima donna but no one really cared a stuff! It was all part of a healthy inter unit rivalry,
They are the envy of other forces and endlessly ,with their faultless displays ,show the RAF off at its best.
Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?
t43562
Not that this matters but I find this reminds me a lot of the 3rd world that I come from - where rules and standards apply only to the hoi polloi. It's almost the classic response to accusations of corruption back there: "they" (meaning politicians or connected businessmen etc) are too important to have to obey the law, let alone common decencies.
me
A TOTALLY irrelevant reply !!
Langleybastion
I disagree, probably because I understand the reply's relevance.
SO you compare the extremely bad behaviour of a couple of RA pilots with 3rd world CORRUPT politicians and businessmen !!
You can’t be serious!
Also LB what I find difficult to stomach is your constant biting criticism of the Reds -having never experienced in your warm met office the severe pressures and stress that they regularly experienced !
PS - reading todays papers ,which have opened other cans of worms, this sorry affair seems to have been handled extremely badly!
BLAND
The RAF I knew was full of eccentrics- aircrew who lived life to the full ,loved flying and worked ,when necessary,24/7
A can do attitude prevailed,squadron morale was high- and the Reds ( love them or hate them) were admired (and envied) by us all. Their skill acquired by HARD WEEKEND WORK was the envy of all who love aviation. They were ,and still are,the stars of the show and most of us would love to have been good enough to be selected for THE team.
Everyone knew that they were prima donna but no one really cared a stuff! It was all part of a healthy inter unit rivalry,
They are the envy of other forces and endlessly ,with their faultless displays ,show the RAF off at its best.
Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?
t43562
Not that this matters but I find this reminds me a lot of the 3rd world that I come from - where rules and standards apply only to the hoi polloi. It's almost the classic response to accusations of corruption back there: "they" (meaning politicians or connected businessmen etc) are too important to have to obey the law, let alone common decencies.
me
A TOTALLY irrelevant reply !!
Langleybastion
I disagree, probably because I understand the reply's relevance.
SO you compare the extremely bad behaviour of a couple of RA pilots with 3rd world CORRUPT politicians and businessmen !!
You can’t be serious!
Also LB what I find difficult to stomach is your constant biting criticism of the Reds -having never experienced in your warm met office the severe pressures and stress that they regularly experienced !
PS - reading todays papers ,which have opened other cans of worms, this sorry affair seems to have been handled extremely badly!
I am sorry but no work related "severe pressure and stress" justifies or excuse what has been alleged. I am appalled that anybody could thing it does.
I do however agree with your last line. In some ways covering up bad behaviour is as bad, if not worse, than the alleged behaviour itself. Could a senior officer doing so be charged with misconduct in a public office? That would certainly be possible with a similar scenario in the police.
Meanwhile the London Fire Brigade is getting a similar press
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63749444
I hope nobody is going to justify that in the same way!
Last edited by Thoughtful_Flyer; 26th Nov 2022 at 09:26.
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London Fire Brigade institutionally misogynist and racist - report - BBC News
Thoughtful Flier
I am NOT trying to justify bad behaviour because of stress.
But I do think that people who are able to handle constant stress ie the Arrows are unlikely to be the quiet reserved type and are possibly prone to over exuberant ( stupid ) behaviour !
Over the years at flying display socials and the Akrotiri OM I experienced at first hand examples of the Reds getting up peoples noses. They particularly seemed to have a dislike of ‘Heavy ‘crews - Ie us!
We were quite able to ignore them and on occasion have a stand up discussion ( row)with them - I guess that WRAFS -who usually were not shrinking violets - should have been able to do the same if they were on the wrong end of unwelcome attention / abuse!
However most of us just treated them as controllable ,boastful and at times juvenile social prats and were still able to appreciate their skills in the air and give them SOME slack!
I am NOT trying to justify bad behaviour because of stress.
But I do think that people who are able to handle constant stress ie the Arrows are unlikely to be the quiet reserved type and are possibly prone to over exuberant ( stupid ) behaviour !
Over the years at flying display socials and the Akrotiri OM I experienced at first hand examples of the Reds getting up peoples noses. They particularly seemed to have a dislike of ‘Heavy ‘crews - Ie us!
We were quite able to ignore them and on occasion have a stand up discussion ( row)with them - I guess that WRAFS -who usually were not shrinking violets - should have been able to do the same if they were on the wrong end of unwelcome attention / abuse!
However most of us just treated them as controllable ,boastful and at times juvenile social prats and were still able to appreciate their skills in the air and give them SOME slack!
The whole thing is meejah driven, for sure. However, the ability of VSOs to avoid responsibility for their actions is legend, and as we have seen recently, is ongoing.
Red Arrows? Look, when a ‘Harrier mate’ calls them a bunch of Prima Donnas, you KNOW there’s a problem.
but…..There is, apparently, no magic bullet.
Red Arrows? Look, when a ‘Harrier mate’ calls them a bunch of Prima Donnas, you KNOW there’s a problem.
but…..There is, apparently, no magic bullet.
In some ways covering up bad behaviour is as bad, if not worse, than the alleged behaviour itself. Could a senior officer doing so be charged with misconduct in a public office? That would certainly be possible with a similar scenario in the police.
Meanwhile the London Fire Brigade is getting a similar press
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63749444
I hope nobody is going to justify that in the same way!
Meanwhile the London Fire Brigade is getting a similar press
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63749444
I hope nobody is going to justify that in the same way!
The solution for airworthiness is to make Air Regulation and Accident Investigation independent of the operator (aka the MOD) and of each other. The solution for the Reds, and any other such anomalous units, is to disband them and post the occupants back into the 'normal' RAF, be it to FTSs or front-line squadrons. All my personal opinion of course, others may well disagree....
[QUOTE=mahogany bob;11337637]Thoughtful Flier
I am NOT trying to justify bad behaviour because of stress.
But I do think that people who are able to handle constant stress ie the Arrows are unlikely to be the quiet reserved type
I know one swallow does not make a summer, but Cheshire VC flew some 100 missions, the later ones as OC 617, and some as Pathfinder Master. The accumulative stress must be beyond mere mortals' imagination. At a crude guess, between 500 and 1000 hours, mostly at night, in all weathers, in crowded skies and subject to every attempt by a clever enemy to kill him.
I have never seen a hint of Red behaviour.
I am NOT trying to justify bad behaviour because of stress.
But I do think that people who are able to handle constant stress ie the Arrows are unlikely to be the quiet reserved type
I know one swallow does not make a summer, but Cheshire VC flew some 100 missions, the later ones as OC 617, and some as Pathfinder Master. The accumulative stress must be beyond mere mortals' imagination. At a crude guess, between 500 and 1000 hours, mostly at night, in all weathers, in crowded skies and subject to every attempt by a clever enemy to kill him.
I have never seen a hint of Red behaviour.
Bob Viking was totally correct in saying "Nowadays our young crews have some truly world beating aircraft and they are bored of it after 3-6 years. That should speak volumes if anyone was listening."
On my regular commute I discovered that a travelling companion was an ex-Typhoon pilot. He described the airborne task as "a lonely game of chess at high altitude" and after one tour he had had enough. Having started my flying career in a Hunter at low level down Loch Ness, I can see how aviation has modernised but not necessarily to the satisfaction of young aviators who want 'real' heart-thumping flying, not lonely cerebral gamesmanship which they could do online in their accommodation.
On my regular commute I discovered that a travelling companion was an ex-Typhoon pilot. He described the airborne task as "a lonely game of chess at high altitude" and after one tour he had had enough. Having started my flying career in a Hunter at low level down Loch Ness, I can see how aviation has modernised but not necessarily to the satisfaction of young aviators who want 'real' heart-thumping flying, not lonely cerebral gamesmanship which they could do online in their accommodation.
[QUOTE=mahogany bob;11337552]o Me
Also LB what I find difficult to stomach is your constant biting criticism of the Reds -having never experienced in your warm met office the severe pressures and stress that they regularly experienced !
Quite so, it was a totally carefree life of ease, customer easy-going and forgiving, just covering shifts 24/7, postings every 3 years, frequent detachments to strange places, briefing massed para. drops, forecasting for moving special weapons, forecasting for aircraft on long over sea flights with no diversions worth a stuff .
Nicosia, Leeming, Topcliffe, Church Fenton, Acklington, Dishforth, Manby, Gutersloh, Finningley, Bawtry, JHQ, TACEVAL trapper, Maastricht, JHQ, Brize
One duodenal ulcer and major surgery.
No comparison with the Reds at all, stress-wise or behaviour-wise. Shame to take the money and the nice fat index-linked pension. In retrospect, I should have paid Her Majesty to be allowed to do the simple repetitive boring job.
By the way. just as the RAF is not the raf, the Reds are not the reds, Met. is not met please.
You will be pleased to know that these are my last words on the subject ot grounding the Red Arrows; others infinitely better qualified to judge appear to agree with me and this ignorant, cosseted, "know-nothing about the RAF" civilian will be happy to learn from their wisdom.
Also LB what I find difficult to stomach is your constant biting criticism of the Reds -having never experienced in your warm met office the severe pressures and stress that they regularly experienced !
Quite so, it was a totally carefree life of ease, customer easy-going and forgiving, just covering shifts 24/7, postings every 3 years, frequent detachments to strange places, briefing massed para. drops, forecasting for moving special weapons, forecasting for aircraft on long over sea flights with no diversions worth a stuff .
Nicosia, Leeming, Topcliffe, Church Fenton, Acklington, Dishforth, Manby, Gutersloh, Finningley, Bawtry, JHQ, TACEVAL trapper, Maastricht, JHQ, Brize
One duodenal ulcer and major surgery.
No comparison with the Reds at all, stress-wise or behaviour-wise. Shame to take the money and the nice fat index-linked pension. In retrospect, I should have paid Her Majesty to be allowed to do the simple repetitive boring job.
By the way. just as the RAF is not the raf, the Reds are not the reds, Met. is not met please.
You will be pleased to know that these are my last words on the subject ot grounding the Red Arrows; others infinitely better qualified to judge appear to agree with me and this ignorant, cosseted, "know-nothing about the RAF" civilian will be happy to learn from their wisdom.
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On your Team, Langley.
Regarding the stresses on the Reds... Family life with overseas camps and displays; no weekends off for what, 6 months in each year? Not easy, I'm sure. But they all knew the cheque they were writing, more so in contrast with constant deployments in the front line. That doesn't validate bad behaviour, in the perpetrator or the onlooker. In my opinion.
Disbandment? Not sure that's right, but in a raggedy-arsed, 'is it 9, 7, 5 or what'; and people being named and shamed- a stand down and rebuild might be in order. If the service doesn't then reinstate, then the Reds were out of time anyway, perhaps.
Finally, the "You aren't a jet pilot, so you can't possibly comprehend...", standpoint is bollocks, by the way.
CG
Disbandment? Not sure that's right, but in a raggedy-arsed, 'is it 9, 7, 5 or what'; and people being named and shamed- a stand down and rebuild might be in order. If the service doesn't then reinstate, then the Reds were out of time anyway, perhaps.
Finally, the "You aren't a jet pilot, so you can't possibly comprehend...", standpoint is bollocks, by the way.
CG
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"Improper behaviour" is nothing new. Sqn Ldr/WRAF Cpl [in the Mess], Wg Cdr/Plt Off [in the Mess], Fg Off (W)/Cpl in the toilets ... and those are just some of those of which I am aware. Sadly, Willy has a mind of his own, and he's not very bright.
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🇺🇦 🌻 🌻
There are some interesting and knowledgeable posts on here.
RAFAT does need to change, hopefully to remain as the display team demonstrating the abilities of some fast jet pilots.
The Reds exclusive, private flying club has closed down.
Based at RAF Waddington, RAFAT should benefit from integrating back into their parent organisation.
The pilots in the team at any one time are not the “Best of the best” but just the fortunate ones selected from a small number of FJ pilots available at the time.
A greater opportunity for everyone to fly in the team could be to reduce the “holiday” to two years and no second posting to RAFAT.
The display routine could be adjusted to allow individuals to fly in more then one formation position.
The Spring ex could be reduced to fewer flying days, if not deleted altogether. Bonding through barbecues, golfing and go-carting should be outside working hours and from the pilots’ own pocket.
There is a holdup in the training scheme. Why not take advantage of the skills and arrange a course using the Reds experience based at Waddington with the students based at Cranwell? A couple of days a week doing a day job and the rest as Reds.
World tours to be banned.
The Country is and will be strapped for cash for years to come, so to retain the team some of this might be useful.
England are currently getting stuffed by the Boks otherwise I would not be scribbling this.
I have been a fan since Culdrose Air Day, 1966 when I almost managed a ride.
Time will tell
There are some interesting and knowledgeable posts on here.
RAFAT does need to change, hopefully to remain as the display team demonstrating the abilities of some fast jet pilots.
The Reds exclusive, private flying club has closed down.
Based at RAF Waddington, RAFAT should benefit from integrating back into their parent organisation.
The pilots in the team at any one time are not the “Best of the best” but just the fortunate ones selected from a small number of FJ pilots available at the time.
A greater opportunity for everyone to fly in the team could be to reduce the “holiday” to two years and no second posting to RAFAT.
The display routine could be adjusted to allow individuals to fly in more then one formation position.
The Spring ex could be reduced to fewer flying days, if not deleted altogether. Bonding through barbecues, golfing and go-carting should be outside working hours and from the pilots’ own pocket.
There is a holdup in the training scheme. Why not take advantage of the skills and arrange a course using the Reds experience based at Waddington with the students based at Cranwell? A couple of days a week doing a day job and the rest as Reds.
World tours to be banned.
The Country is and will be strapped for cash for years to come, so to retain the team some of this might be useful.
England are currently getting stuffed by the Boks otherwise I would not be scribbling this.
I have been a fan since Culdrose Air Day, 1966 when I almost managed a ride.
Time will tell
So replacing over half the team each year is your plan? Training them to fly multiple positions is also going to reduce safety. Both of these ideas seem to come from someone with no idea of the challenges involved.
Everyone loves a jolly.
I was with you to begin with but when you suggested making the pilots pay for Springhawk out of their own pocket you lost me. Aside from the fact that a large part of the entertainments budget is already paid for by the team by way of the ‘Pigz’, if your answer is to shave off all the fun and remove any semblance of a good deal then you have just proven exactly why so many pilots are leaving.
You can all laugh and scoff and call pilots Prima Donnas all you like but when there are none left because all the fun has been sucked out of it and you’re asking OC PSF to jump into a Typhoon you’ll realise there is a very good reason why those pilots were complaining so much.
The politics of envy are alive and well but some people just can’t, or won’t, see it.
BV
You can all laugh and scoff and call pilots Prima Donnas all you like but when there are none left because all the fun has been sucked out of it and you’re asking OC PSF to jump into a Typhoon you’ll realise there is a very good reason why those pilots were complaining so much.
The politics of envy are alive and well but some people just can’t, or won’t, see it.
BV
This time claiming to have evidence of the attempts to cover up......
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dal-false.html
If true, then it is to be hoped that all those involved will be dismissed too.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dal-false.html
If true, then it is to be hoped that all those involved will be dismissed too.
The RAF official also denied the woman raised the matter with one of the force’s most senior officers, Air Vice-Marshal Suraya Marshall
Well, yes of course I could. This is the type of behaviour that I both observed and indeed came to expect from her. Her personal professional gain comes above everything else and she is quite capable of dragging-down the integrity of others around her. However, she is now in the protected bubble of the star chamber, so her version of events will be the 'official' RAF position.
JTO
Wait a minute. I thought that every organisation needed more women in high up places because they are so much nicer than men. Or are you trying to say that they are human like everyone else and prone to character flaws just like men?
This is totally new information.
BV
This is totally new information.
BV
I had the good fortune to be a guest at the recent RAF Scampton closure parade, (the 2nd time I've attended a closure parade at Scampton, but I digress...)
The lady officer mentioned above was the reviewing officer. The things that stood out for me during the ceremony was the Lancaster nailing the flypast as the RO arrived at the dais, also, less praiseworthy were, (in no particular order) the ROs address, which appeared to be a straight cut and paste from the station history printed in the programme, the failure of the RO to return the salute from the parade commander prior to the parade marching off, and the parade commander attempting to march off the parade before the colour party were turned into line.
It appears low standards (of whatever flavour) are not the sole preserve of the RAFAT.
The lady officer mentioned above was the reviewing officer. The things that stood out for me during the ceremony was the Lancaster nailing the flypast as the RO arrived at the dais, also, less praiseworthy were, (in no particular order) the ROs address, which appeared to be a straight cut and paste from the station history printed in the programme, the failure of the RO to return the salute from the parade commander prior to the parade marching off, and the parade commander attempting to march off the parade before the colour party were turned into line.
It appears low standards (of whatever flavour) are not the sole preserve of the RAFAT.
I had the good fortune to be a guest at the recent RAF Scampton closure parade, (the 2nd time I've attended a closure parade at Scampton, but I digress...)
The lady officer mentioned above was the reviewing officer. The things that stood out for me during the ceremony was the Lancaster nailing the flypast as the RO arrived at the dais, also, less praiseworthy were, (in no particular order) the ROs address, which appeared to be a straight cut and paste from the station history printed in the programme, the failure of the RO to return the salute from the parade commander prior to the parade marching off, and the parade commander attempting to march off the parade before the colour party were turned into line.
It appears low standards (of whatever flavour) are not the sole preserve of the RAFAT.
The lady officer mentioned above was the reviewing officer. The things that stood out for me during the ceremony was the Lancaster nailing the flypast as the RO arrived at the dais, also, less praiseworthy were, (in no particular order) the ROs address, which appeared to be a straight cut and paste from the station history printed in the programme, the failure of the RO to return the salute from the parade commander prior to the parade marching off, and the parade commander attempting to march off the parade before the colour party were turned into line.
It appears low standards (of whatever flavour) are not the sole preserve of the RAFAT.
CG