Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

AUKUS

Old 5th Jan 2022, 10:23
  #801 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: australia
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The manufacture said they will invest to do 3 a year. If there is a firm ongoing order.
https://news.usni.org/2020/11/18/nav...pyard-capacity
golder is online now  
Old 6th Jan 2022, 00:36
  #802 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: aus
Posts: 755
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not aukus specificially but Australia and Japan have signed a Reciprocal Access Agreement. First one Japan has signed

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-...eaty/100741012

rattman is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2022, 01:16
  #803 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This diagram clearly shows the “time on station” advantages of the SSN over the SSK in the areas that RAN submarines are likely to operate. It’s very significant and shows why 8 SSN’s will be more effective than the previous plan for 12 SSK’s.


Going Boeing is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2022, 02:16
  #804 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lagrangian point 2
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Going Boeing View Post
This diagram clearly shows the “time on station” advantages of the SSN over the SSK in the areas that RAN submarines are likely to operate. It’s very significant and shows why 8 SSN’s will be more effective than the previous plan for 12 SSK’s.


Yes. That graphic certainly explains some of the capability increase.

Can anyone explain why the proposed number to be purchased is at least 8 and not at least 9? I thought there was a long-standing ‘rule of three’ with naval hardware (one available/on station for every three due transit/maintenance/etc).

Surely pushing for at least 9 is a small extra price to pay for an even greater amount of available hulls at any one time? Or does 8 provide for something I don’t know about?
ExtraShot is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2022, 04:53
  #805 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post
Can anyone explain why the proposed number to be purchased is at least 8 and not at least 9? I thought there was a long-standing ‘rule of three’ with naval hardware (one available/on station for every three due transit/maintenance/etc).

Surely pushing for at least 9 is a small extra price to pay for an even greater amount of available hulls at any one time? Or does 8 provide for something I don’t know about?
Yes, that’s a valid point. The Collins class always has 2 in heavy maintenance which leaves 2 (sometimes 3) available for deployment with the last one working up to operational status following maintenance.

There have been a number of statements where they talk about a “minimum of 8” SSN’s to be built in Australia, so they are leaving the option open for additional submarines if the political situation warrants it.
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2022, 07:13
  #806 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: australia
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think the Virginia rotations are 6 months deployed, 2 year maintenance. There is also a gap after deployment, where they are looking to use them in the north sea. To run out the time.
golder is online now  
Old 13th Jan 2022, 19:10
  #807 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Philippines
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Do we not have a closer port than at Perth for accessing those chokepoints or are they all now chinese controlled?
ChrisJ800 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2022, 19:43
  #808 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: aus
Posts: 755
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ChrisJ800 View Post
Do we not have a closer port than at Perth for accessing those chokepoints or are they all now chinese controlled?
Theres darwin, but due its location and surrounding arafura sea, its always been a non starter for any important combatants. Thats why permanent basing has only been small ships patrol boats and hydro graphic survey. Theres no other ports between darwin and perth. Sorta the same for east coast as well, the ports there are geographically unsuitable being the barrier reef. Same thing no major combatants based out northern QLD porst. Patrol and hydographic out of cairns. Army amphibious and a visit a couple of times a year by adelaide/canberra and choules to townsville.

rattman is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2022, 21:36
  #809 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ChrisJ800 View Post
Do we not have a closer port than at Perth for accessing those chokepoints or are they all now chinese controlled?
The waters around the Port of Darwin (Arafura Sea) are shallow and are not suitable for submarine operations. Also, the Northern coastline of Australia experience very large tidal changes which involve different docking requirements. Cyclones also present another issue.

If the US was to begin submarine operations out of Australia, the joint operations would create a case for a resupply/rearming facility to be built at Exmouth (near Learmonth RAAF Base) as this would reduce transit times and get these vessels back on station faster. There is deep water just to the West so it’s more suitable than Darwin. Also, the relative isolation of that area would mean the activities at that facility would not be subject to many prying eyes.

____________________________________________________________
This is a more comprehensive map showing RAN submarine operating areas than the one I previously posted.


Last edited by Going Boeing; 13th Jan 2022 at 23:15.
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2022, 16:52
  #810 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 4,694
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"The waters around the Port of Darwin (Arafura Sea) are shallow and are not suitable for submarine operations. Also, the Northern coastline of Australia experience very large tidal changes which involve different docking requirements. Cyclones also present another issue."

You're also a very long way from significant technical resources and staff
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2022, 21:31
  #811 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 1,351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"The waters around the Port of Darwin (Arafura Sea) are shallow and are not suitable for submarine operations. Also, the Northern coastline of Australia experience very large tidal changes which involve different docking requirements. Cyclones also present another issue."

You're also a very long way from significant technical resources and staff
Is Perth any better in those respects?
Have to say, from a national policy perspective, it sure would make sense to have Perth as a West coast counterpart to all the current East coast infrastructure..
etudiant is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2022, 22:27
  #812 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Exmouth was used by the US Navy as a submarine base in WW2 as their Fleet submarines escaped from Manila Bay. It was considered too remote with a lack of infrastructure and had been bombed by the Japanese. Fremantle then became their base for conducting operations through the Indonesian archipelagic choke points and further afield. Incidentally, the USN used submarine tenders in Exmouth initially- are the relevant to the future of the RAN?

Battles of the last Pacific War seem ever so relevant today as the CCP’s influence creeps south. The last of GB’s theatre maps lacks East Coast weight? Considering the Coral Sea and vital lines of communication to the West Coast of the USA.
Gnadenburg is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2022, 22:37
  #813 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Gafa
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Is Perth any better in those respects?
Have to say, from a national policy perspective, it sure would make sense to have Perth as a West coast counterpart to all the current East coast infrastructure..
There’s a sizeable trench out the back of Rottnest island that the subs use for training amongst other things
Maggie Island is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2022, 06:08
  #814 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 13,239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Incidentally, the USN used submarine tenders in Exmouth initially- are the relevant to the future of the RAN?
. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_L...y_at_Holy_Loch
ORAC is online now  
Old 15th Jan 2022, 08:26
  #815 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The USN has two 1970’s era submarine tenders forward based in Guam and which are due to be replaced in the mid-late 2020’s. It would be interesting to see if it was feasible to static base them near Learmonth/Exmouth in a cyclone protective harbour. It would be a quick way of providing this capability until more permanent facilities can be constructed.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...-replacements/

Last edited by Going Boeing; 15th Jan 2022 at 20:33.
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2022, 09:03
  #816 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 4,694
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Is Perth any better in those respects?"

Its the sort of backup available on things like electronics companies, machine shops and the availability of skilled people - you're far better off for resources in a city of over 2 million than in one of less than 150,000. Tenders would work I guess but that's another layer of people and expense
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2022, 07:07
  #817 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Philippines
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The US can have subs or used to in shallow harbors like Pearl Harbor or Subic bay. So why cant we?
ChrisJ800 is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2022, 07:47
  #818 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: aus
Posts: 755
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ChrisJ800 View Post
The US can have subs or used to in shallow harbors like Pearl Harbor or Subic bay. So why cant we?
Its not the harbor its the water around look at hawaii on depth chart, its a mountain with DEEP water around it. Also cant find any reference to US nuclear subs based out of subic, yes they visit, but basing is a different kettle of fish
rattman is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2022, 21:34
  #819 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ChrisJ800 View Post
The US can have subs or used to in shallow harbors like Pearl Harbor or Subic bay. So why cant we?
As Rattman said, it’s the depth of water around the harbour that is important.

In deep water, the submarine can change depth to sit just above or below temperature inversions to reduce the chances of detection from noise produced by the boat. In shallow water, the submarine captain has fewer evasion choices so enemy ASW assets (including submarines) can focus on the waters around the harbour to pick off submarines entering or leaving.
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2022, 06:36
  #820 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Trump defence spokesperson questions AUKUS. Claims people in the military and conservative politicians don't want to share the technology.

https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/c...017b9fe9da228b
RickNRoll is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.